Have the national park authorities who have pitched Dollywagon ever actually seen a bike ? Do they realise that Dollywagon is a Bridleway and as such open to said mysterious form of transport ?

Now I like a good techy descent as much as the next man, but that is just plain dangerous. The spacing of the cavernous drainage chutes are put in without any thought to bikes, what was wrong with just changing the level of the pitch so the water would hit it. Plus the size of the boulders they have used will never have any water running down them in a million years…

Good descent buggered IMO.

Some lovely views from the top of Helvellyn today though, although the ascent to Great Dodd up Bruts Moss was hub deep purgatory.

More pics here

I think you are right

Its been like that a while hasn't it? I've never ridden it but have walked it and it doesn't look much fun. I know people on here do ride it but to me i'd rather be somewhere else. To be honest it also spoils it a bit for walking really – am i climbing a mountain or just a large flight of stairs…

I guess its the other side of trail sanitisation – make it too hard to cycle down! Seriously though i get your point about it being bridleway but the naitonal park turning it into a staircase, i.e. essentially a foot only route. Could they (should they?) not provide an equally well constructed route for bikes alongside?

This and the route down to patterdale has been touched on before and if i recall right someone on here has spoken about it to park rangers and they said just ride round the steps.

ignore the bike aspect as that is irrelevant as far as bridleways go, Is it safe on a horse? if it is is then not much you can do, if it is not then the park has screwed up big time and would be obliged to redo every questionable bit.

That looks awesome.

Nice pics

Has the bit down to Patterdale from Grisedale Tarn been done as well? also is Sticks Pass a good descent, as we have only done Dollywagon etc but looking for an alternative possibly now!

That's not stone pitching, its a stair case.

MTFU…

looks like fun to me

I'm trying to remember if it was like that when I last rode it which was maybe 8 years ago, remember being for rocky and aching like hell at the bottom was great fun though even on the old Rockhopper. Helvellyn is a top ride love it loads but we normally descend he way we came back down into Patterdale which again is a cracking descent.

fatmuthahubbard – Member

MTFU…

looks like fun to me

Depends if you're descending (fun) or climbing (most emphatically NOT fun)

mrmo – Member

ignore the bike aspect as that is irrelevant as far as bridleways go, Is it safe on a horse?

Unfortunately this is the truth, the law specifically excludes bicycles from any consideration of surfacing 🙁

i was only joking, it looks a tad savage

MBR are riding up it next month.

MBR are riding up it next month.

That I would like to see.

Is it completely unrideable or is it just 'chuffing tough'?
Is it any worse than (for example) Snowdon Ranger?

I think it's good to have trails in a spectrum from 'really quite easy' to 'almost completely unrideable by almost anyone'. It gives something for me to aspire to, something for people way better than me to play on and something to keep the air ambulance busy.

MTFU, its rideable, although a challenge, with enough travel

Milner from MBR rode it last year, video on youtube somewhere, when the magazine revisited Helvellyn this year they commented how dollywaggon was difficult and unrewarding and they looked for a different and faster route down.

I rode the down last year and found the combination of steep gradient, large steps and drainage channels too much. Once I had stopped (due to bottle going) found it hard to get going again.

Ultimately its probably not that severe for lots of riders, but I think it is a disappointment after the fun of the last few miles

Ignoring the ethics, is it still possible after the first steep turn at the top to traverse off the trail to the right, and down some scree?

Its an odd one for sure, but is happening right accross the lakes as part of the "F*ck the fells" project which has ironically come about due to walkers continuously walking on the edges of trails to turn them to motorways – despite the fat they obviuously never cause erosion…

Red Pike is another example. However, they dont seem to be evaluating their own work whatsoever as now trails are appearing on the side of these pitched routes as walking down them is quite painful and horrific on your knees from the lack of shock absorbtion grass or soil provided.

And for what its worth I didnt rate Sticks either flow was too broken up by some of the rocks, except for the switchbaks through the mine that were ace. Ullswater for the win IMO.

Sticks Pass is AWESOME down into Thirlmere though!

Ignoring the ethics, is it still possible after the first steep turn at the top to traverse off the trail to the right, and down some scree?

I did see a grassy traverse heading over towards Seat Sandal, I took it as I remembered about the route from a previous thread, but it was so waterlogged that my wheels were just washing out… went back onto the steps after that.

Never done the Sticks descent. To be honest, I probably wouldnt bother with the route again. Much better stuff in the area IMO, but it was one of them rides to tick off.

Dave, didn't you catch the thread last month where TJ slagged me off as a environmental vandal for telling people to ride on the grass beside instead, only for someone to say they'd asked a park ranger who had also said to ride on the grass ?

Yeah, I did recall some of it. Enough to make me look for the magically "other way".

Grisedale Tarn down to the climbing hut at Ruthwaite was excellent though. Proper natural classic Lakeland technical riding at its best.

SFB – and my point is proven by

as now trails are appearing on the side of these pitched routes as walking down them is quite painful and horrific on your knees from the lack of shock absorbtion grass or soil provided.

from Si

If there is a path you should be on it to prevent further erosion walking or cycling

Putting my mountaineering hat on, I personally prefer the more rugged steep path renovations. Makes you think where best to place your feet rather than just a trudge. Only ever done it once on a bike against scores of ascents & descents walking so slightly biased here 😉

SFB – and my point is proven by

as now trails are appearing on the side of these pitched routes as walking down them is quite painful and horrific on your knees from the lack of shock absorbtion grass or soil provided.

except he was talking about Red Pike – this hasn't happened on Dollywaggon…

The pics in the OP look like finally a piece of trail justifying 5 and 6 inch 'all-mountain' bikes. Makes me wish I had something like that near me!

The pics in the OP look like finally a piece of trail justifying 5 and 6 inch 'all-mountain'

Your right but I did ride it with my Rockhopper and 80mm travel up front, wasn't a smooth ride mind and looking forward to using the heckler next time.

Does look like a fun challenge 🙂

Simon – it is a general point – walking or riding alongside built paths causes erosion alongside them. Simple observable fact.

MTFU, its rideable, although a challenge, with enough travel

I dont doubt it for one minute. But not by me. Not in a million years would I manage to ride down that.

"difficult and unrewarding"

yep.

I think they make a few mistakes when rebuilding trails. Yes, they must be hardened to take the traffic. But why not have large zigzags to manage the gradient with fewer steps? Some of these trails are quite painful to descend on foot. Where possible, I leave the trail and make my own large zigzags to save my joints.

I knew a guy from Conniston mountain rescue who says it's his favourite descent. He does like steep and technical a lot. Horses for courses.

walking or riding alongside built paths causes erosion alongside them

Depends how far off the path you go – on Dollywagon the best line uses an old grassy zig-zag three or four hundred yards away.

Of course you don't know this, as you've not actually been there have you TJ…? 😉

To those complaining about pitching being a recent innovation, it's been standard practice in the Lakes for thirty years – I've been fellwalking/climbing there for longer than that and in the '90s I knew a number of people who worked on the repair gangs. In the last few years there's been a trend away from pitching and more use of "soil inversion" using mechanical diggers eg. the Skiddaw path, and the Wythburn path up Helvellyn. This produces a more bike-friendly surface but also makes more of a mess and it doesn't work on really steep slopes.

If you're really interested here's a PDF on path management from the National Park authority.

my point is proven by

as now trails are appearing on the side of these pitched routes as walking down them is quite painful and horrific on your knees from the lack of shock absorbtion grass or soil provided.
It might prove your specific, yet really obvious point (that walking on grass causes erosion). However you're obviously paying no attention to the reason people are walking off the restored path. It's all very well to have a go at those causing the new erosion, but shouldn't those restoring paths at least consider what's likely to happen in the long run, and build something people are more likely to want to walk/ride on.

Not that I see anything specific wrong with the trail in the picture above – not something I'd want to ride (or walk – but nowadays I tend to avoid "paths" when in the hills anyway), but I'm sure with the right bike and attitude it would be fine.

– it is a general point – walking or riding alongside built paths causes erosion alongside them. Simple observable fact.

… as natural as sheep paths.

First pic looks like a cracking route, but the second pic makes it look like a rock-strewn mess.

Simple observable fact.

in some places. It depends on the surface and the amount of traffic.

To the OP, it's not vandalism, but is pretty irritating in places. I'd prefer there was no need for pitching because people considered the results of their actions when out and about. If I want to ride stairs I can always go to the nearest tower block or multi-storey fire escape. Unfortunately (as yet) I'm yet to find one of those that has steep twisty singletrack instead of steps.

Whilst the link that elliptic provided (above) is pretty basic and aimed at walkers, it points out that there's little else other than pitching that can be done to stabilise the surface on such heavily used and steep slopes. Nobody wants pitching – it's a pain to run or walk on (can be fun to ride down though if done well), costs a fortune, and takes a lot of effort. That said, if it is there, use it. If you don't, all you're doing is encouraging erosion elsewhere.

Basically, if you don't want to ride on (badly) maintained trails, use them in such a way as the maintenance is unnecessary in the first place. If that means riding through puddles rather than round them, getting off for the odd drainage ditch you don't like the look of, or in bad conditions choosing a route where your impact is lessened, so be it. If you feel you can improve how track maintenance is done in the future, then get involved- a lot of the work is done by volunteers.

Arguments on here along the lines of “i ride where I like 'cos the steps are no fun, erosion is natural anyway, and anyway I heard a ranger say not to ride on the path anyway so nur-nur-ne-nur-nuh [paraphrasing slightly] are disingenuous to the point of absurdity.

are disingenuous to the point of absurdity.

as evidenced by this photo of dreadful erosion:

when even your granny could ride it:

It does look like fun to me, as a descent… But it's a hard balance really, if they go back and rebuild it no doubt someone'll pop up and slate them for "sanitising".