of course the entire issue is politicised

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-24911880

hearing dave and eds PMQs pre-prepared tributes was rather tragic too, considering that charity is required to fill the gap in supporting returned troops when the state doesnt, and of course being responsible for sending them to war in the first place

exactly grum. there is an underlying current that if you question anything to do with the military, whether it be refusing to wear a poppy, donate to the Legion, or question the Heroes branding that is universally banded about then you are selfish or disrespectful to those who died in WWI and WWII.

I think we are only a few years away from small poppy lapel badges being worn year round by some folk

Anyone would think the money for your poppy goes straight to the EDL the way you lot are carrying on.

STRAW MAN

Don’t like the symbolism/media spin? Put the money in the pot but don’t wear the poppy then.

yes its great advice to give money to things you are not comfortable with 😕

It just seems that you have to wear a poppy

FWIW having visited the fields what it taught me was what a terrible waster of human life it was and why we should avoid such senseless slaughter
I used to wear the white poppy but it was not worth the grief from folk who iuse poor arguments like those Mr smith.
It was disrespectful apparently and they died for my freedom – the irony was lost on them and I imagine most folk there wish they had not seen the slaughter of their friends for so little

THM support for pour military is meant to be the default political position even when they are sent to do illegal wars for spurious reasons – why am I mean to support these brave folk doing this? Its not done in my name nor in the populations name. The reality is without soldiersour brave heroes Blair could never have done this. Clearly the politicians have the lionshare of the blame

What I always remember is the senseless slaughter

grum – Member
Well, the government should support the armed forces and their families properly – maybe we need to pay more tax to allow them to do so?

Or the MoD could factor in the cost of care before entering into pointless and illegal wars.

JY, like you I remember the senseless slaughter. But I am also happy to support the activities of the RBL

http://www.britishlegion.org.uk/get-involved/how-to-give/where-your-money-goes

The rest is, to borrow one of our favourite phrases, largely a STRAW MAN.

THM, you wouldn’t be haughtily dismissing others’ opinions without offering any real point of your own would you? That would come as a massive surprise.

yes its great advice to give money to things you are not comfortable with

So you’re not comfortable giving to a charity that helps and supports families who’ve lost loved ones and helps injured men and women?

Whether or not you agree with the reasons why they need help, the simple fact that the government doesn’t provide the support they need means that someone else (in this case a charity) has to step in and help provide it.

As I see it, the fact that the Legion is militarily based is irrelevant as far as I’m concerned, there are still people who need help and support. I think it’s called being compassionate….

I also dont give money to religious charities who can also do a lot of good.
Forgive my lack of compassion 😕

Do you give money to a charity that does this to the other side – perhaps donate to an Iraqi/Afghani victims of war fund – just wondering how far your compassion travels?

THM i bow to your experience of wearing a white poppy and what happened

your right we dont call it help for heroes and no one expects us to support out troops evben though almost no one supports the war

Thanks for correcting me with that well crafted argument 🙄

Forgive my made up arguments 🙄

Grum, try a little better as that is poor trolling even by your standards. I have made several posts with my opinion on this thread and don’t forget how dismissive you were of my anti-military points to my MP just a few weeks ago!

For a simple soul like me, it is equally simple. We remember those who gave their lives and what this means and we give money to an organisation that provides very worthy support. The rest is noise.

But feel free to make political points and to keep trolling. You obviously enjoy it.

No need to bow JY, that is quite unnecessary. Unless its for 2 minutes once a year and in the correct direction. Getting a straw man down to a fine art:

Do you give money to a charity that does this to the other side – perhaps donate to an Iraqi/Afghani victims of war fund – just wondering how far your compassion travels?

dan1980 – your reasoning is what bugs me. It’s obvious what you are getting at by saying “you’re not comfortable helping a charity that supports injured men and women?” i.e. “what a selfish bastard you must be”.

He made it clear he was not comfortable supporting a charity that supports people who voluntarily join an organisation that is sent overseas to kill people. I would say it is not an unreasonable position to take.

If people really cared about the welfare of service personnel then why not write to your MP or set up petitions on change.org to try to shame elected representatives into making things better for these people once they come home and are invalided out the service?

Easier to stick 20p in a tin once a year and pretend you properly give a shit though, isn’t it? Rule Britannia

He is trolling – AWESOME
you may disagree with how I feel on the poppy but the premises are in no way flawed – you know this which is why after two posts you have not commented on them only sniped at me then at Grum.

PS TJ always said he had answered the question – just saying like

OH hilarious – have you ever worn a white poppy and can you comment on what happens if you do ? We both know the answer so your comments are somewhat pointless but hey you keep digging dude- its what they died for

What’s the collective noun for trolls?

Please ignore what I said about people being free to make policical comments (however wrong!) But if you want to correct yourself, you can start at the point.. “and isn’t that the real point”. It’s even on this page to make life easier.

Alternatively just keep trolling.

In the circumstances pretty poor the cheapen, “what they died for”. But not really a surprise. Have a good afternoon, enough of this for me.

I’m happy to support ex-soldiers even if I don’t agree with the wars they fought in. A lot of them don’t agree either but armies like estate agents/bankers are a nessarcary evil. It’s a tough job that can result in physical and mental issues after service (if you don’t get killed). It’s up to the individual if they don’t appreciate the media’s portrayal or spin or don’t agree with a governments decision to go to war.
Like I said for me it’s about helping those who did a tough job and need help and support after leaving active service. I met William Speakman VC (the bearded chap in the poppy appeal posters) who now in his eighties is living in sheltered accommodation. He told me how he first saw the legion helping veterans of the Great War when he was a child in Manchester, when he was asked to be part of the ‘ad campaign’ he said he would gladly help when the legion had done so much for him and those he served with and the families of the many friends he lost.
Me wanting to support those people having met several who benefited from the legions help doesn’t mean I have to wear a poppy or agree with a government who went to war.

A poor argument? I don’t care what you do with your money but I cant see how you can convince me that the reasons for war or the political spin on the poppy appeal mean donating to help others is a bad thing.

It just seems that you have to wear a poppy

People died so you are not forced to wear political symbols by the state.

your reasoning is what bugs me

Fair enough, but as I see it, applying your logic which seems to be saying any suffering they and their families experience is self inflicted, as they volunteered, means that folk shouldn’t give to cancer charities (after all some 50% of all cancers are caused by factors we have control over) or the BHF (as only fat, beer swilling, lard eaters have heart attacks) etc. etc.

I very much doubt many service personnel sign up, solely on the basis they get to go and shoot at people. You seem to forget the humanitarian roles the military take part in, trying to save lives.

I give to charities that help people out, regardless of how they’ve found themselves in their situation because generally, the people dishing out the cash at the far end, actually care about the people they are helping, unlike the tools we have running the country who would sell their own mothers if it got them some more votes. Pissing about with an ePetition to get these soulless festering sores to actually do their jobs seems somewhat pointless.

Nah, never have never will, it’s not my responsibility to support soldiers. You don’t want injured, don’t go to war.

For a simple soul like me, it is equally simple. We remember those who gave their lives and what this means and we give money to an organisation that provides very worthy support. The rest is noise.

I’m not trolling at all – suggesting that everything that doesn’t fit into your view on the matter is ‘noise’ is pretty insulting/patronising don’t you think?

Especially on such an emotive topic.

fair enough Dan but I would say that people don’t willingly choose to get cancer even though they may willingly expose themselves to risk factors.

I think the reasons people sign up are many and varied.

Perhaps there is family tradition. Maybe trying to live up to forefathers to went to the world wars?

Because they believe in the military and feel proud wearing the uniform

For economic reasons

BUt I also think there will be many who want to see a bit of action.

I think the reasons people sign up are many and varied.

Perhaps there is family tradition. Maybe trying to live up to forefathers … ?

Because they believe … and feel proud

For economic reasons

So very like being a fisherman or farmer. Being a professional soldier is just a job – reasonably dangerous, but so are lots of jobs. Why are soldiers all “heroes” but those in other dangerous jobs aren’t?

but those in other dangerous jobs aren’t

who says they aren’t?

So I no longer wear a poppy, nor have done so since 2002 because of Iraq. (in answer to the original question).

I have just today set up a monthly payment for a very small amount to a hospital which cares for ex-services personnel. I thought long and hard about it before doing so. I despise the jingoistic union flag waving triumphalism that was on show on Saturday on the BBC Festival of Remembrance. I cringe at the ‘Help for Heroes’ slogan.

But on the other hand i’m prepared to give a small amount to a local cause which will still care for a few dwindling numbers of WWII veterans but if a guy in his 20s or 30s who joined up because it’s theonly job he could get when he left school gets some benefit from it too then I don’t have a problem either.

Is there not a difference between jobs that have a risk of death and injury (Health and Safety apply), and the “job” of deliberately putting yourself in harms way (hostiles out to kill you)?

Do you not see that?

I agree with you Ben Cooper. I was trying to point out to Dan1980 that I do think a large element join because they want to see action

MrSmith. Macho-bullshit flag-waving society says they’re not heroes

To elaborate what I meant with my post re. reasons for joining up

To emulate forefathers in world wars (misguided?)

To wear a uniform and feel part of something powerful (deluded?)

Purely economic reasons (a sad situation to find yourself in I think)

To see some action (psychos)

who says they aren’t?

Where do I buy an anchovy to pin on my lapel to show my support for fishermen?

Do you not see that?

No. Dead is dead, they’re both risky jobs. If they were putting themselves in harm’s way to really protect this country, I might see the point, but they aren’t. They’re political playthings, and calling them heroes removes the need to ask why they’re fighting on the other side of the world in a war they’re going to lose.

Where do I buy an anchovy to pin on my lapel to show my support for fishermen?

http://www.fishermensmission.org.uk

MrSmith. Macho-bullshit flag-waving society says they’re not heroes

have you got a pie-chart to show that demographic?

I wear my poppy as a show of support to the victims of Tony Blair.
I hope that every time he sees a poppy he feels just that bit more guilty and gets a sleepless night.

No MrSmith – just my eyes

zippykona – Member
I wear my poppy as a show of support to the victims of Tony Blair.
I hope that every time he sees a poppy he feels just that bit more guilty and gets a sleepless night.

Victims don’t volunteer, volunteers are complicit. No volunteers, no army, no war crimes.

If they were putting themselves in harm’s way to really protect this country, I might see the point, but they aren’t. They’re political playthings

I share your distress at the way politicians have abused the purpose of our armed forces, as do many soldiers it seems*. But soldiers do see themselves as protectors, and do fight for that reason. And while deep sea divers and fisherman also get my respect, they have not died in vast numbers to protect my nation or principles. So for that reason I honour soldiers.

* I had a fascinating 2 hours chat in the pub with half a dozen Nepali Gurkas recently; they were not long back from Afghanistan and doing R-and-R/outdoor pursuits. They were very disappointed that the UK Parliament had rejected military intervention in Syria, regarding it as cowardly and a loss-of-face for not going in and trying to protect the population from the administration. But they are professional warriors so they would think that. I explained to them that after the lies leading to the invasion of Iraq, the public/back-benchers didn’t trust the motives of the Government. They had a good think about that!

Because they clash terribly with my outfit and colouring.

they have not died in vast numbers to protect my nation or principles. So for that reason I honour soldiers.

hahaha, do people really believe that crap? 😀

I had a fascinating post club chat with some afgahn guys that run a minimart in kentish town, they were happy to see the back of the taliban but considered their country a worse place now, because of the ongoing violence, one guy said he planned to take his family and kids back once the brits left and it all calmed down again. They were of the opinion that for hundreds of years people had fought over his country and we ha dbeen idiots for thinking it would work out any different this time.

happy to see the back of the taliban

they should probably turn on a news channel! 😀

Why are soldiers all “heroes” but those in other dangerous jobs aren’t?

They aren’t all heroes. Most people in the military (and they are people) are embarrassed by most of the flag-waving etc. I’d say that fireman and medics are all labelled as heroes.

Victims don’t volunteer, volunteers are complicit. No volunteers, no army, no war crimes.

War is an extention of politics. So, if we follow your very simple logic, no politicians, no decisions to use military, no wars. I suggest that you solve the cause of the problem rather than trying to make half-baked points. Deal with the politics.

War is an extention of politics. So, if we follow your very simple logic, no politicians, no decisions to use military, no wars. I suggest that you solve the cause of the problem rather than trying to make half-baked points. Deal with the politics.

Politics don’t happen in a vacuum, the soldiers as well as the voters bear their share of responsibility. Tony blair or any leader for that matter couldn’t have don’t s*** without eithers compliance.

Politics don’t happen in a vacuum, the soldiers as well as the voters bear their share of responsibility.

Possibly slightly less than the population who voted them into power. You are seeking to persecute your own vendetta against the military rather than identify the legal route taken to deploy them – which is politics.

I always but a couple over the few weeks they’re about, but never wear them more than once – they get completely crumpled? I’ve no idea how folk on tv keep em so pristine. Need one o them proper pin badges really

Victims don’t volunteer, volunteers are complicit. No volunteers, no army, no war crimes.

Says the IRA supporter…….