I wish I had your confidence 😉

So do I – I hate to see you suffer unnecessarily 😉

It gives me something to argue about, so it’s not all bad 😀

I don’t think the UK will vote to leave, and I would rather have a say in the decision than sit on the sidelines and pretend that a rUK does not affect me. Don’t worry ben if you think an indy Scotland has no worries about being in the EU then campaign for your compatriots Farage, Fox, Gove and Johnson to get the result you long for.

I’d rather not, because as much as I think independence is right for Scotland, I don’t think it’d benefit England to leave the EU.

I don’t expect you to condider it or care, however I dont think the EU benefits from Brexit.

Of course I care – I bear no ill will towards England at all. I just don’t think it benefits us to be in the same country, with the current political system.

@ben Who’s to say Scotland won’t vote Leave ? Thankfully this Referendum campaign is only 3 months, 2 years what where they thinking 8O. Ben the EU is bust, it’s heading rapidly for the plug hole. There is also a very big difference between an independent nation of 60m re-asserting itself and a new country of 5m trying to find its way. If we do vote Leave I suspect Scottish indepenence will look less attractive as they will realise they have to take the euro immediately even if they could join.

What’s hilarious is listening to the very same people who moan about unelected EU bureaucrats meddling in our affairs then going weak at the knees when an unelected monarch waves at them.

There is a fundamental difference between fhe Queen who takes a role above politics and is the very cornerstone of our country and its national identity and the EU which is a club of bureaucrats desperate to create a superstate and who couldn’t govern their way out of a wet paper bag.

Of course I care – I bear no ill will towards England at all. I just don’t think it benefits us to be in the same country, with the current political system.

If thats the case why do we (the rest of the UK, or more specifically England or more specifically the South East, subsidise you so much ? In comparison its Scotland who is the net taker much like the EU

There is no positive Remain campaign because no one is enthusiastic about the EU in fact Corbyn is positively against (all such blog posts conveninetly now deleted of course) and Cameron and Osbourne are hardly convincing. The Remainers talk aboutvstaying in a Reformed EU without acknowledging the real reforms will take it further away from what they want and inevitably towards political Union. Just look at Obama’s arrival in Germany, all you can see are US and EU flags with the odd German foag struggling to get a look in.

There is no positive Remain campaign because no one is enthusiastic about the EU in fact Corbyn is positively against

It’s hard to be positive about what you have (a very British trait 😉 )
Leave does beget to use its imagination though as Jamby proves repeatedly. The promise of more sunshine less crap etc. followed up by blaming the eu for a bunch of stuff their not responsible for is an emotive campaign.

Vote leave all the good bits with none of the bad…

the very cornerstone of our country

HAHAHAHAHA!

**** ME!

There is also a very big difference between an independent nation of 60m re-asserting itself and a new country of 5m trying to find its way.

There are several countries the size of Scotland already in the EU – they’re doing okay.

fhe Queen who takes a role above politics and is the very cornerstone of our country and its national identity

Your identity, maybe – the queen is an irrelevance to most people. And a role above politics? If that’s so, why does she have so many meetings with politicians, which are exempt from FoE?

If thats the case why do we (the rest of the UK, or more specifically England or more specifically the South East, subsidise you so much ?

The South-East of England has the highest tax receipts, that’s true – but Scotland is a net contributor to the UK economy.

Hmmmmmm… who’s opinion to listen to when it comes the future of our countries economy? Its certainly a dilemma……

or

I just can’t decide. I probably need some impartial advice from someone who knows about such matters. Someone to sit down in the pub with, with a pint, who’ll tell me how it really is….

fhe Queen who takes a role above politics and is the very cornerstone of our country and its national identity

Even “Republican” Australia voted to retain the Monarchy, if we had a referendum it wouls be a landslide to retain it. Salmond and the SNP are no migs politically and they are Monarchists

@binners you are totally glossing over the point that Obama is speaking for what ia good for the US, that’s his job. It was said over the weekend that TTIP is close to being signed when that is not the case, there is huge resistance in France and Germany and many UK campaign groups like 38 Degrees trying to block it as they say its bd for the NHS. All those Remain-ers should stop amd think about that, voting for an organisation which will negotiate a deal on our behalf which many say is bad for us. Farrage has it right, its not a trade deal its a big “corporate stich up”

the queen is an irrelevance to most people.

Cmon Ben, dont start the week so poorly

And a role above politics? If that’s so, why does she have so many meetings with politicians, which are exempt from FoE?

Not that hard to understand surely?

but Scotland is a net contributor to the UK economy.

It takes some mental gymnastics to conclude that any region whose expenditure > its revenue is a net contributor, but hey ho?

Jambas – why wouldnt he talk for the US-interest perspective? Plus you will have read in this morning’s FT that Obama and Merkel are pushing hard for the deal to be concluded this year.

And note that with all the political will, this is still going to take time. So this shows just how fantatsic and nonsensical the arguments of the Brexiters are when it comes to negotiating deals, especially when there will be political ill-will in the case of a divorce. Gove is a pure fantasist.

Good to see Bojo lying again about the cost of EU membership in the Torygraph this morning. No surprise there although one would hope tbat the Editorial team would pick it up. Its a simple thing to check.

@tmh Leave have decided to use the gross contributions to the EU prior to rebates, its factually correct. We have’t yet had the discussion about the extra £2bn we had to pay as the calculation was revised with higher figures formthe illegal drug trade and prostitution. Our budget contributions include the “black market” – its such a joke you couldn’t make it up.

I have no problem with Obama speaking for the US, trying to claim he’s advising the UK about what’s best for us is nonsense.

Did anyone else hear his bbc interview where he said a trade deal could take 10 years or 5 years ? Hey why nite make another guess and “could” is such a useful word bit like @jive using “linked” all the time. The EU has never had a trade deal with the US so do we really care ? Sorting out indistrial scale tax avoidance utlilising the EU structures is far more important

Happily the straw poll on the front page is showing that common sense will prevail 🙂

@tmh Leave have decided to use the gross contributions to the EU prior to rebates, its factually correct.

Its not and the ONS is very clear on the issue – but think about if from a cash flow perspective to make it easier – our transfers are post rebate. So from both a theoretical, factual and practical perspective its a lie – pure and simple. And deliberate at that…

Simple analogy – you go to Nirvana cycles and ask the cost of a new bike. Simon knows you and says the RRP is £xxx(x) but we will give you a 15% discount. What is the cost of your bike? £xxx(x) or £xxx(x) minus 15%?

Like most Brexit stuff its easily falsifiable. They will be making stuff up about immigration next….

Sanders and Clinton both on the side of remain.

jambalaya – Member
@tmh Leave have decided to use the gross contributions to the EU prior to rebates, its factually correct.

Completely disingenuous to say it’s the cost of the EU.

Never mind all that nonsense! Just look at his cheeky little face. Look at it! Ha ha…. He’s so funny! And he says we should leave so that he gets to play at being PM

Why listen to a president who during his time wanted to ‘pivot to Asia’, complained about British intervention in Libya, won’t be in a job in 12 months time and ultimately is only interested in what best suits the USA (not that I blame him for it, it’s his job).

The UK and USA will have a relationship regardless of the EU in or out vote, simply because the UK still owns strategic assets like military bases on Cyprus and is part of the 5 eyes network.

complained about British intervention in Libya,

Are you saying that he (Obama) is a man of vision too?

Why listen to a president who during his time wanted to ‘pivot to Asia’, complained about British intervention in Libya, won’t be in a job in 12 months time and ultimately is only interested in what best suits the USA (not that I blame him for it, it’s his job).

This sums it up perfectly

Obama praised Merkel’s handling of the refugee crises today, I think there are many in Germany and Europe who would strongly disagree and miles and miles of freshly installed barbed wire wouod say otherwise.

I am genuinely fearful of the implications of us leaving the EU. Obama speaks sense.

I work in finance in the city – with a focus on troubled companies and their debt levels. What I am seeing already:-
– the banks pulling back from new lending as they cannot assess the risk properly
– pricing of existing corporate debt being pushed upwards to reflect increased risk profiles (and who do you think will ultimately pay for this increase?)
– recoveries and insolvency teams in banks/accountants/lawyers briefing internally on the expected massive upturn in corporate failures in the immediate aftermath of a leave vote caused by the banks refusing the renew or calling in debt
– my wife’s employer (large multinational with 10000+ employees) privately briefing on pulling out in the event of a leave vote but refusing to comment publicly

On a personal level everyone I know is beginning to cut spending as far as possible and will be on credit crunch type spending if we vote to leave. Consumer discretionary spend will drop and the spiral of economic decline will accelerate (effectively a UK only credit crunch). Within 12 months we will be completely b*ggered with the rest of the EU laughing at us.

Needless to say I will be voting to stay (even though my own professional skillset will suddenly become highly sought after on an exit) and I urge those of you who believe exit is a good idea to really consider the direct economic impact this will have on yours and your family’s life. I cannot see any outcome other than all of us being significantly worse off. Only the very very cash rich will be ok and if that’s you then fill-yer-boots or, maybe, think about the impact on everyone else.

Why listen….

(To repeat) For the very obvious reason that he is representing the views of the largest economy in the world, a significant ally and a major trading partner.

Why would you possibly choose not to listen?

[To avoid the harsh or inconvenient truth perhaps?]

I cannot see any outcome other than all of us being significantly worse off.

Yes but we’ll be able to stand – our chests swelling with national pride – in our glorious isolation, King Boris our leader at the helm, wrapped proudly in a Union Jack, as the economy sinks beneath the waves, at least there will be no pesky EU eurocrats interfering in our affairs.

And thats what really matters, right?

@tmh what’s the figure net of rebates and EU grants – £225m a week I think ?

We should listen to Obama and form our own judgemnet on what he has to say and think about why he is saying it

I think it is fair to say in the short term a Brexit would make the UK worse off financially. But it is whether in the long term it might help, partly but killing off zombie companies and allowing new ones to take their place, partly by allowing the UK to focus on trade with parts of the world the EU struggles to with and partly by allowing UK companies to become more competitive with the Germans etc.

Ultimately no one can tell you whether over the medium to long term we’d be better or worse off, so you may as well vote on other criteria in my book.

Albeit it’s a series of personal observations, there’s more insight into the possible reality in Medders’ post than I’ve had from either camp over the last few weeks.

Ultimately no one can tell you whether over the medium to long term we’d be better or worse off, so you may as well vote on other criteria in my book.

Such as..?

I do feel that I have to congratulate the usual right-wing suspects on this thread, for really upping your game in your shear total bonkersness output. Even by usual standards

Good effort! 😀

Such as..?

You choose, it’s you vote after all 🙂

But maybe this thread could become useful and we could crowd source some questions & answers or KPIs that could help?

dragon – Member
Ultimately no one can tell you whether over the medium to long term we’d be better or worse off, so you may as well vote on other criteria in my book

You should only gamble if you can afford to lose.

right now my vote is based on the personalities of who is on the ‘leave’ campaign.

I don’t much care for cameron and osborne but they are infinitely preferable to Boris and IDS in charge…

and partly by allowing UK companies to become more competitive with the Germans etc.

Would you please explain in what ways the UK will be more competitive with Germany by no longer being a member of the EU, since I would have thought that both the UK and Germany being members of the EU would have meant that we were competing on a shared level playing field.

Within 12 months we will be completely b*ggered with the rest of the EU laughing at us.

This. I work for a large-ish engineering consultancy and recently the UK board was here telling us about research they’d commissioned into the effects of brexit on our business. To say they weren’t optimistic would be quite an understatement. They made it pretty clear that anyone who voted to leave was playing russian roulette with their careers. And yet I talk to some colleagues who still intend to vote out, and these are otherwise intelligent, sensible, rational, educated people. 😕

This is totally anecdotal, but everyone I know who was pro-exit has, since the weekend, been adopting a sudden “American Presidents opinions don’t matter to us” policy.

The very fact that they need to repeatedly say this means that, obviously, to many, American Presidents opinions do matter, and matter a great deal.

Trying to tar him as a Brit-hater is about the worst and daftest ad-hom I’ve seen or heard of, and I would think anyone who attempted to use this must surely think: wait a minute here, I’m reaching. But it seems not.

I don’t much care for cameron and osborne but they are infinitely preferable to Boris and IDS in charge…

Boris looking favoirite imo to win Conservative leadership even in the event of a Remain result. Osbourne’s last two budgets have been PR disasters, his new nickname should be Chancellor U-turn

Just met a couple of friends who asked me how I’d be voting 🙂 One runs a small business, the other in a service industry job and said they where 100% out. The business owner voted Yes for a Common Market in 75 but repeated the common line that’s not what we’ve got now and the “Octopus” is only going to further strangle us.

As for better/worse off in the short term in event of Brexit that needs to cover the Greek default / EU contagion scenario (sorry to keep on about this but its the single biggest economic risk we face at the moment). Also nothing much will change in the short term as the Government won’t have the courage to trigger an immediate exit. The biggest risk in the event of a Leave vote is the government trying to weasle out of any exit at all. If we Remain within 5 years the EU will have grown again with more poor countires joining further undermining UK wages and working conditions and a backdrop of deepening EU recession

Yes, it’s funny.

Pre-Obama, it was all “We’ll be able to trade more with the USA without the EU holding us back.”

Now, it’s “Screw you, USA, we don’t need you anyway!”