What’s scary is the number of otherwise sensible people (George Monbiot for example) who think that Brexit would mean we can get a better, fairer trade deal than TTIP, and see Obama’s comments as a boost for the Leave campaign.

Won’t happen. It’ll be TTIP but worse, take it or leave it.

The US has form for interfering. In the last 60yrs have they had a beneficial influence apart from Clinton/Balkans?

Just wait till JHJ googles “Operation Gladio” 😀

The US has form for interfering. In the last 60yrs have they had a beneficial influence apart from Clinton/Balkans?

You don’t believe that we are ever under threat from the Eastern Block?

flap_jack – Member

You think those nice tories will not continue the sell-off if we Brexit and it’s all the Americans forcing us to ? Oh dear…

The Torys will be out of government at next election. Sure they will sell off as much NHS as they can in that time. But if the TTIP is taken off the table, and were back of the queue to have it … then it gives more time for the public to waken up to TTIP, and have a chance to vote for a party against it.

At the moment; not many really know what it is about. A friend of mine yesterday even suggested it was just a conspiracy theory … just like the Tory`s pushing the NHS towards privatisation.

Anybody know what it’s worth? Imports from USA and how much we export to them?

http://atlas.media.mit.edu/en/profile/country/gbr/

Regarding that Squaddie quote, which clearly has been on the rounds of a number of forums, somewhere else this was written in reply:

“How’s that for the entire discussion in a nutshell!. Ignorance and mindlessly emotive twaddle all concentrated into a neat package!. The President of the sole remaining superpower on the planet notes that his nations trade interests would favour the ‘large’ multinational trading block that is Europe over a single nation entity that would be the UK and that is a surprising statement?. Surprising to the extent that would, somehow, justify suspending our core internationalist stance and refusing to participate in important military interventions out of some kind of pre-pubescent tantrum?

The description of the French, Italians, Germans etc being what this drills down to. Simple xenophobia. Don’t like Johnny Foreigner”

The person who originally posted the squaddie comment said ‘most people in the UK would agree with it’

Not true of most of the people I know

Given the various bits of sabre-rattling going on with Russia, China (South China Sea) and N Korea, personally I’d rather keep our relationship with the only remaining superpower and the largest military spender on the planet and the major partner in Nato, on an even keel…

This is not a good time to damage relationships with any major allies – although no time would be a good time IMO.

Biggest problem with the whole Brexit debate is it’s largely toddlers shouting childish insults at each other… which is a pretty poor way of persuading us to make such a major decision.

For my money, his intervention and the points he made were a good strategy by the Remain camp and will go a long way to persuading the undecided to stay in – he’s a well-respected and neutral party, even if he will be gone by the time we would be exiting…

Boris resorting to referring to his racial heritage has given me pause for thought about Boris – that’s pretty nasty politics – far enough right to be touching on Fascism and National Front type rhetoric – and I really don’t want to support anyone with that kind of thinking.

Teetosugars you are aware that its not 1939 all over again and that we have no meaningful armed forces to speak of.

Yep, ‘cos back then we still had the worlds largest navy along with the industrial capacity to be second to the US in war-output for the rest of WW2.

I think his opinion is more considered than most people spouting on the subject, who just seem to think Brexit will miraculously solve all the world’s problems and we’ll suddenly be transported to full employment, a booming economy and the return of all of the British Empire etc

Teetosugars you are aware that its not 1939 all over again and that we have no meaningful armed forces to speak of

That’s odd, the 12 years I spent in the Army certinanly were are quite ‘meaningful’.
And I’m pretty sure that most that have served would say the same?

I think his opinion is more considered than most people spouting on the subject, who just seem to think Brexit will miraculously solve all the world’s problems and we’ll suddenly be transported to full employment, a booming economy and the return of all of the British Empire immigrants etc

FIFY

[video]https://youtu.be/qMJcZpvyNok[/video]

I think his opinion is more considered than most people spouting on the subject, who just seem to think Brexit will miraculously solve all the world’s problems and we’ll suddenly be transported to full employment, a booming economy and the return of all of the British Empire etc

This.

When the whole global economy is on extremely shaky ground/drowning in an unprecedented amount of debt, partnership and interdependence is a far more sensible strategy than ‘proudly going alone’. If a Brexit leads to exits of other EU countries and collapse of the EU then we’ll be starting off a chain of events which tips the global economy right over the edge.

Me? I couldn’t gaf re the “special relationship”

Jesus, each time it sinks a little lower.
this is not something to be broadcasting!

I’ll listen to him (but might not be swayed by his opinion) as I think he carries more intelligence, gravitas and charisma than our political leaders in the UK.

I’ll listen to him (but might not be swayed by his opinion) as I think he carries more intelligence, gravitas and charisma than our political leaders in the UK.

^^^ that is why the out campaign has gone apoplectic.

He’s certainly worth listening to the opinion of.

As for the “special relationship”, it’s bullshit, always has been whoever was President or whoever was PM. Ever heard a President make a reference to it, unless he’s talking to a room full of Brits?! We’re like some sad bit on the side, the US says we special and one day we’ll be together, but they don’t mean it.

International relations is a ruthless, ruthless business with no room for sentiment, if you’re going to be in any relationship, it’s better to be the biggest, strongest member of it – in the EU were near the top of the tree, in the “special relationship” we’re the statue and the US is the pigeon.

I think his opinion is more considered than most people spouting on the subject, who just seem to think Brexit will miraculously solve all the world’s problems and we’ll suddenly be transported to full employment, a booming economy and the return of all of the British Empire etc

Brexit certainly won’t solve the world’s problems, it certainly won’t fix the EU’s fatal weaknesses, but it will allow the UK to be in control and to adapt to changing circumstances as best suits us.

I bet if he said, on his last day as prezz “Shamon y’all, **** it, Aahma launchin’ all de nukes!” you’d care then.

If Hillary has endorsed what he has said where are the outist to dismiss that – none of the republican candidates has said anything to refute what has been said and they really won’t give a s*** about the UK.

it will allow the UK to be in control

Of what?

Better to be in a team than on your own, imo. Haven’t you seen Cars?

it will allow the UK to be in control and to adapt to changing circumstances as best suits us.

Seems like a perfect argument for Scottish independence.

Loads of ’em, great aren’t they, which one should I get? (that adequately reflects my managerial stautus and yet still denotes an air of dangerous, playful individualism through moderately enhanced performance and a sticker)?

but it will allow the UK to be in control

In control of what? Worse H&S legislation? Poorer worker’s rights? That’s what the Brexiters want, they don’t want to create a happier, better country for all, they want to be able to screw everyone else more without pesky EU intervention.

It’s a childish, foot-stamping attitude – you’re not doing everything my way so I’m going home.

Seems like a perfect argument for Scottish independence.

Everyone I know who voted No in the Indyref says that they’d change their minds if the UK voted to leave the EU. Okay, that’s only a sample of a dozen people or so, but still.

you’re not doing everything my way so I’m going home

You’ve changed your tune!

It’s a childish, foot-stamping attitude – you’re not doing everything my way so I’m going home.

sounds remarkably like….oh, no forget it 😉

From what? I’ve always been pro-EU.

Ah, you’re trying to equate Scottish independence from the UK with UK independence from the EU.

Reality is a lot more complex and nuanced than simple comparisons like that.

What’s hilarious is listening to the very same people who moan about unelected EU bureaucrats meddling in our affairs then going weak at the knees when an unelected monarch waves at them.

Toadying to the Queen one minute, complaining about undemocratic EU institutions the next.

I was pulling your leg Ben – (but yes, I was referring indirectly to behaviour re independence!)

The interesting (not in a good way) comparison is the way the Project Fear playbook is being used again. No-one’s pushing a positive case for staying in the EU, it’s all about trade barriers, and having to have visas.

That nearly failed in the Indyref, and there’s not a massive lead to squander this time around.

No one?

Turn the radio on? Read the papers….plenty of positives.

In contrast, Brexit is the one that requires exaggerated claims and BS to push and pull people to accept their folly. So today, let us start by lying about the UK’s cost of membership and then we will move on to all those dirty Eastern Europeans and darkies who only come here to use our benefits, dont you know….

…trouble is (like much of Salmon’s BS) people believe this stuff. All of the Brexiters that I know spout immigration tosh as their opening gambit. Like creationists, they seem to have lost all capacity for critical thought.

I’ve not see the positive side so much – but hopefully it is pushed more to make a difference.

How much were you hoping the positive side was pushed 2 years ago?

Scottish independence: we can go it alone!

Brexit: unity is best!

You have to be aware of the comedy aspect here 🙂

Candy floss and pipe dreams can be made to sound quite positive ATG – you know, lower taxes, higher spending, free drinks on Thursday…..

Not blatantly lying two years ago would have been nice.

Lots of BAE shipyard workers feeling betrayed at the moment. Along with the steel workers, the HMRC workers, the oil workers,…

They could have listed to us on here – we explained ad nauseam why its was all a lot of hokus pokus 😉

Scottish independence: we can go it alone!

Brexit: unity is best!

I said two years ago on the referendum night TV show that one of my biggest fears was that the UK would pull us out of the EU against our wishes, and that Scottish independence was the only way to guarantee we’d stay in the EU.

I hate being right.

Have more faith Ben, your fellow Scots saw sense in the end, and collectively the citizens of the UK will do the same.

You have nothing to hate 😉