They are duty bound to report concerns but are not protected against harsh treatment when they do.

And yet under the new contract the government expect junior doctors to report working hours violations. 😕

Indeed. I can only imagine that could be career suicide for many of us.

As I understand it, the Government are going to announce changes to the Consultant contract over the Easter period.

Will they announce more funding to enable full 7 Day consultant cover??

Things will get really interesting at that point….

Will they announce more funding to enable full 7 Day consultant cover??

Doubt it. They seemed happy enough to increase the workload on the juniors and cut their pay at the same time. I wouldn’t be surprised to see a similar thing happen to consultants. And similar lies to cover it.

They’ve already been spinning the “closing a loophole which lets consultants opt-out of weekends” lie.

I still haven’t seen a decent answer to the question “if things are so bad why is medical school so massively oversubscribed ?”

There is a fundamental problem with a monopoly supplier (of A&E) being able to go on strike. Rifht to strike is fine if there is mire than one supplier

I still haven’t seen a decent answer to the question “if things are so bad why is medical school so massively oversubscribed ?”

You mean not one you want to hear.

Are those junior doctors still striking? FFS! 🙄

Are they still being encouraged to strike by the lefties? Crikey … 🙄

JY! , flip your argument around, what about the ethics of a monopoly employer dictating employment terms unilaterally?

As regards medical students, that’s a total logic fail, you are talking about choices made at 17 or 18 by kids who don’t know what they are in for. It is 7-10 years down the road they learn the truth, by which time they are disillusioned, underpaid and in debt. You might want to look at the early retention rate, or for that matter why all my GP and Consultant friends are heading for the retirement door as fast as we can.

Very, very few of the doctors I know, OK actually none, are what most rational people would call “lefties”.

All are genuinely concerned for the safety of patients. None are taking strike action lightly.

I wonder whether those who accuse them of this or being influenced by “lefties” have actually bothered to find out the arguments involved beyond what they read in the right wing press

You mean not one you want to hear.

@Drac maybe I missed fhe post, please link. My theory below.

Over a career its very well paid with generous pension. Ability to progress to consulant and mix state and lucrative private work. Almost unrivalled job security. Ability to take a carear break or work part time. Ability to work anywhere in the world including in private sector. Well repsected in society, sense of social responsibility.

jimw – Member
Very, very few of the doctors I know, OK actually none, are what most rational people would call “lefties”.

All are genuinely concerned for the safety of patients. None are taking strike action lightly.

I wonder whether those who accuse them of this or being influenced by “lefties” have actually bothered to find out the arguments involved beyond what they read in the right wing press

hhhhmmm … I don’t know mannnnn … something is not right about the strike.

I used to share a canteen with all the doctors, from junior to senior to consultant to whatever in the North East … ya right … ya … If you are siting on the same desk eating your food and listening to some of their conversation you will realise that they are no saints.

Take the money out of the equation see how many will practice as doctor … 🙄

Take money out of the equation and see how many would be bankers, footballers, solicitors, accountants etc.etc.

Fallacious argument. Most people work to make money, most of the people I know who work in the medical profession do so to earn money but it is not their prime motivation. One or two I can think of do, but they are by far in the minority and I am sure you could find the same in any place of work

jimw – Member
Take money out of the equation and see how many would be bankers, footballers, solicitors, accountants etc.etc.

Fallacious argument.

You agree money is the motivation then? 😯

Apropos of nothing… I’m just in from a multi-schools event with I think about 500 kids. Most popular question of the night:

“I was looking at medicine, but now I’m thinking of something relating to medicine but not becoming a doctor, what is there?”

Not a question you heard often last year, apparently, but now it’s a staple. Good news for us, we don’t do medicine but we’ve got a good pharmaceuticals option 😆

Northwind – Member

Apropos of nothing… I’m just in from a multi-schools event with I think about 500 kids. Most popular question of the night:

“I was looking at medicine, but now I’m thinking of something relating to medicine but not becoming a doctor, what is there?”

Not a question you heard often last year, apparently, but now it’s a staple. Good news for us, we don’t do medicine but we’ve got a good pharmaceuticals option

Or you can see it as less competition for you (demand and supply). As a result you can hold others to ransom coz you can now monopolise the “service” and charge at will … 😛

jimw – Member

Very, very few of the doctors I know, OK actually none, are what most rational people would call “lefties”.

But the radicalisation has started.

Last Saturday I attended a meeting of the Croydon Assembly, a body formed under the auspices of Croydon Trades Union Council to fight cuts and privatization.

And there in a hall sitting among the usual assortment of lefties were a handful of junior doctors. It was a remarkable sight and one which I had never seen before in Croydon’s Trade Union HQ. Furthermore one of the principle speakers on the platform was from the BMA.

They were there primarily of course because they are in dispute with the government. But their presence at the meeting meant they became aware and informed of the wider struggle against cuts and privatization, as they listened attentively to speakers both on the platform and from the floor.

What the medical professions are facing today is an onslaught from a government more right-wing than any government in the 1980’s, and which is committed to dismantling existing healthcare provisions in England and replacing them with a market oriented system much closer to the US model. That’s what the Health and Social Care Act 2012 was all about.

Junior doctors are being driven into the arms of the left by this present right-wing government.

We’re not saints or people who live in a vacuum without money. What I want you to understand is this is about making us work MORE weekends, nights and longer hours for LESS money and the government is using statistics that no-one, and I really mean no-one in the medical world believes concerning increased deaths for patient’s admitted on the weekend, which is incredibly complicated and literally **** all to do with staffing.

The beauty of it is the government knows it can exploit enough people’s ignorance about what the strike is really about to impose their plan, which is really about cheapening the NHS whilst making everyone work harder for less.

I’m not going to say anything more than there is a planned mass exodus to other countries to escape this Tory-inspired nonsense. Those who would vote for these very dangerous people will be laughing on the other side of their face when they can’t see doctors in A&E when they need them as there may well not be many left.

These are such grave topics and people like the posters above band about nonsense opinions as if they truly understand the way healthcare works in the UK. You may well get what you want and if you do it is what will be coming to you.

You agree money is the motivation then?

At the risk of repetition, you’ll know that the core of the strike is not money, right? I mean, while we’re talking about it, you have to accept that, given the shortage of doctors, the money is not sufficient to attract appropriately-skilled people and therefore it could be argued that they’re underpaid according to the market, but the overriding issue is, and has been from day one, patient safety.

pondo – Member

You agree money is the motivation then?

At the risk of repetition, you’ll know that the core of the strike is not money, right? I mean, while we’re talking about it, you have to accept that, given the shortage of doctors, the money is not sufficient to attract appropriately-skilled people and therefore it could be argued that they’re underpaid according to the market, but the overriding issue is, and has been from day one, patient safety. [/quote]

I give up.

You lot just have to sort it out amongst yourselves.

😮

chewkh. There are times when your carefully fostered stance of uncaring ignorance is just trolling.

The changes are described as a pay rise, yet are cost neutral…. Some Drs who don’t do as much frontline 24 hr acute care will get paid more… So those that deliver the 24 hr care Hunt bangs on about, despite the fact that the Drs and Nurses are the only people who are already there 24 hrs, will get paid…. Come on, you can work it out..!

You’re wasting your time speedstar and stoats.

Over a career its very well paid with generous pension. Ability to progress to consulant and mix state and lucrative private work. Almost unrivalled job security. Ability to take a carear break or work part time. Ability to work anywhere in the world including in private sector. Well repsected in society, sense of social responsibility.

It’s up to you to find the post not me. Yeah you’re missing the point of that strike too.

Yes medicine is still very competitive at undergraduate level but applications have fallen for the last few years. When you consider that those applying to medicine will often have started working towards it from the time they took their GCSEs then the effect of the current issues may not be felt for another couple of years, however that’s not really the issue anyway, as stated above a medical degree will always be attractive.
What is no longer so attractive is working in the NHS for your whole career.
I’ve been a GP trainer for more than 10 years and what I have seen in the last few years is that newly qualified GPs leave our shores for Australia much more readily than the used to. Some work for a year then go, some go straight away, some come back, some never do. When asked why it’s never just about money. It’s about quality of life, about wanting to work in a system that might not be being dismantled. Its often about being sick of being demonised by the right wing press as being lazy fat cats on £250k for a four day week.
Incidentally our earnings will be public knowledge in 8 days time and I expect the daily heil headline writers are going to be disappointed.
If these were bankers leaving to work elsewhere the government would be crossing their greasy palms with gold to keep them. Isn’t that right Jamba?
http://www.pulsetoday.co.uk/your-practice/practice-topics/education/medical-school-applications-decrease-as-negative-publicity-takes-toll/20030395.fullarticle

about wanting to work in a system that might not being dismantled.

While the NHS remains as it is, it will always be a political football. Bin it for a European system and while there would be grumping initially in the long term the system would work better and lead to happier staff. (Although I’ve always suspected that like soldiers, you should only worry about Dr’s and nurses when they aren’t moaning.)

Dragon, agreed. Which politician will have the balls to admit that that is what they are doing rather than pretending that the NHS is adequately funded, but it’s just the lazy doctors and nurses that are the problem?
It’s also worth noting that those wonderful European systems are funded better as a proportion of GDP

http://www.nuffieldtrust.org.uk/data-and-charts/uk-health-spending-share-gdp

Stoatsbrother – Member
chewkh. There are times when your carefully fostered stance of uncaring ignorance is just trolling.

I am sure both sides have their valid arguments and both sides claiming to be right so are you saying one side is more rational then the others? I am sure the govt is advised by someone in the medical field/NHS/related etc and would not be so stooopid to mess with NHS without their own experts advice. Bear in mind, NHS is toxic for ALL politicians regardless. The system has now mutated to something so large that it can challenge and put an end to a govt/political career.

The system is bureaucratic and is fighting back … 😯

One side must give in. Any other result is merely prolonging the inevitable.

The changes are described as a pay rise, yet are cost neutral…. Some Drs who don’t do as much frontline 24 hr acute care will get paid more… So those that deliver the 24 hr care Hunt bangs on about, despite the fact that the Drs and Nurses are the only people who are already there 24 hrs, will get paid…. Come on, you can work it out..!

That’s their views and I am sure those that have suggested the change had theirs and I am sure they are also people in the same industry … 🙄

I am sure the govt is advised by someone in the medical field/NHS/related etc and would not be so stooopid to mess with NHS without their own experts advice.

I am sure the govt is advised by someone in the medical field/NHS/related etc and would not be so stooopid to mess with NHS without their own experts advice.

For someone who so often posts about the misguided ZombieMaggot bureaucrat politicians that is uncharacteristically optimistic and a little naive.

I’m getting more and more convinced Chewkw is a chatbot.

legolam – Member

ROFL COPTER!!![/quote]
Very funny. That’s good ^^^ 😆

GrahamS – Member
or someone who so often posts about the misguided ZombieMaggot bureaucrat politicians that is uncharacteristically optimistic and a little naive.

Are both of you saying Hunt’s got his advice from his accountants then decides to cut cost hence the restructuring/re-engineering of NHS?

Or

Are you saying that Hunt woke up one day and suddenly decided that it’s a good day to cut NHS cost because he can?

Or

Are you saying that Hunt got bored of his political profile he suddenly decides that cutting NHS cost is his best way to improve his political profile and popularity?

😆

Drac – Moderator
I’m getting more and more convinced Chewkw is a chatbot.

Ya, plenty of chattaboxes on STW so good way to pass time.
Me skiving … I deserve to skive!
Was working non-stop for 7 days a week for the past one month … 😆

Me skiving … I deserve to skive!
Was working non-stop for 7 days a week for the past one month ..

And with that I’m convinced.

Drac – Moderator

Me skiving … I deserve to skive!
Was working non-stop for 7 days a week for the past one month..

And with that I’m convinced. [/quote]
I could be ZM bureaucratic management watching you! 😈

Are both of you saying Hunt’s got his advice from his accountants then decides to cut cost hence the restructuring/re-engineering of NHS?

Or

Are you saying that Hunt woke up one day and suddenly decided that it’s a good day to cut NHS cost because he can?

Or

Are you saying that Hunt got bored of his political profile he suddenly decides that cutting NHS cost is his best way to improve his political profile and popularity?

All 3.

I think Jeremy Hunt has been told to cut the cost of the NHS, and the wage bill is the biggest cost that the NHS has. His plan would have been to start with the group who traditionally don’t get very politically involved (the junior doctors) as they are worried about messing up their chances of getting a consultant post and, once they had agreed to a pay cut (for more hours), it would be much easier to get the consultants, then Agenda for Change (nurses, porters, physios etc) to follow suit. Voila, a hugely decreased wage bill.

I think Jeremy Hunt has designs on the Conservative leadership and see this fight as a springboard for his personal political ambitions.

I think Cameron and Osborne have been conspicuous by their absence in all of this. I suspect that they have told Jeremy that it’s all down to him – if he wins, he gets the glory (and probably the leadership once DC steps down), if he loses then he will fall on his sword quietly and everyone will say how it was all Jeremy’s idea…

I’m getting more and more convinced Chewkw is a chatbot.

He’d definitely fail a Turing test. 😆

@Northwind- tell them about how much money they can make as a surgeon or a consultant, when I was yacht racing actively a big portion of the other owners where surgeons and consultants. Alternatively Dentistry.

A Junior NHS doctor is exactly that, a Junior. I fully appreciate other professions you’d be earning a lot more at 28-32 than a Junior Doctor but they knew that when they signed up. The contract changes are primarily about the fact they don’t want to have to work on Saturdays and Sundays without significant extra money

JY! , flip your argument around, what about the ethics of a monopoly employer dictating employment terms unilaterally?

Understood and I appreciate the point. I think the solution is multiple providers but that’s too politically sensitive to even be discussed.

The contract changes are primarily about the fact they don’t want to have to work on Saturdays and Sundays without significant extra money

Try again.

legolam – Member

I think Jeremy Hunt has been told to cut the cost of the NHS,…

I think Cameron and Osborne have been conspicuous by their absence in all of this. I suspect that they have told Jeremy that it’s all down to him – if he wins, he gets the glory (and probably the leadership once DC steps down), if he loses then he will fall on his sword quietly and everyone will say how it was all Jeremy’s idea …

Errmmm … not his idea then? 🙄

Hunt is just a bot? 😯

GrahamS – Member

I’m getting more and more convinced Chewkw is a chatbot.

He’d definitely fail a Turing test. [/quote]

AI will one day decide on your life … 😆

A Junior NHS doctor is exactly that, a Junior.

My wife is 40 and still a “Junior”. It is a different meaning to most professions.

The contract changes are primarily about the fact they don’t want to have to work on Saturdays and Sundays without significant extra money

The (old) contract had extra pay for those working a lot of weekends and nights. As you said “they knew that when they signed up”.

At no point in this dispute have the junior doctors asked for more money. Only that they don’t lose what what they signed up for.

The dispute is categorically NOT about pay for weekend working. It’s barely about pay at all.

In no particular order, here are some of the things that I disagree with on the imposed contract:

1) No financial penalties for Trusts that allow their doctors to work unsafe hours
2) More weekend working with the same number of doctors means less cover during the week, when most of the day to day work is done (due to everyone else doing elective work M-F)
3) Thin end of the wedge with regards to other doctors and allied health professionals having their pay cut
4) “Creative” rotas that have doctors working random shifts with absolute minimum length of breaks, meaning tired and disorientated doctors looking after patients that have no continuity of care
5) Widening of the gender pay gap due to:
a) no pay progression whilst on maternity leave,
b) no provision for how less than full time training (LTFT) will work in the new contract
c) a pay structure that could mean that 2 female junior doctors on 60% contracts (ie doing a total of 120% of a full time job) could together earn less than the equivalent male doing 100% of a full time job
d) no pay progression for the final 5 years (full time) of training, which could mean that female doctors in their 30s could work for 10 years (gaining experience and skills) without any hope of a pay rise
6) Disincentives for doctors to do academic research, further diminishing our status in the worldwide scientific community
7) No pay progression in the final 5 years of training, which is where the biggest gains are made in terms of experience and skills.

Junior doctor rotas are already at breaking point. My own place of work has 7.6 people working a rota meant for 12. Next weekend, we don’t have any doctors covering the day shifts on Saturday and Sunday. Imposition of this ridiculous contract will mean that the exodus of doctors from the NHS will accelerate and I suspect we are in for a very hard decade or so in the NHS (if the NHS survives at all).