Just5mins, are you sure your not a Tory spin doctor ?

Nurses are much less inclined to do hands on care than their non-degree qualified peers of 20 or 30 years ago.

Utter rubbish. They’re far more qualified in many ways than a degree meaning they do far more hands on. They can prescribe, book and read X-rays, treat and discharge, suture as well as perform small procedures.

only themselves to blame.

Problem is there is some truth in this, due to poor lifestyle choices in fags, alcohol and food.

The joke that did the rounds in the NHS section where I worked was that the only reason the ‘poor’ didn’t get scurvy was due to a diet heavy in chips.

This^

My wife is a “dinosaur” midwife with no degree but she has 20+ years experience. She has been told she will not get any career progression as she has no degree. (good staff motivation)

Yet the young un’s coming through have the bit of papper saying they are “better” than my wife. Some of them are getting promoted with their head full of nonsense out of books and lectures with no practical sense of how to actually do things on the ward when it comes to the crunch.

My wife is a “dinosaur” midwife with no degree but she has 20+ years experience. She has been told she will not get any career progression as she has no degree. (good staff motivation)

Yet the young un’s coming through have the bit of papper saying they are “better” than my wife. Some of them are getting promoted with their head full of nonsense out of books and lectures with no practical sense of how to actually do things on the ward when it comes to the crunch.

bruneep – a very good friend of mine was a nurse for 30 years and learnt very much ‘hands on’. She is critical of needing a degree for nursing and would agree with your thoughts.

My biggest gripe about both nurses and doctors is the lack of observational skills – tear your head away from the screen and watch the patient walk through your door, also look at them when they’re talking with you.

Seriously? Coming back to this thread is like picking a scab. I know I shouldn’t but I do. It just makes me angry.
My wife is an emergency nurse practitioner. She’s also dual adult/paediatric qualified. That’s extra nice as she now has to pay two sets of registration fees every year just to work. She has spent a lot of her life studying to be as qualified as she is. She has also spent 12 years working her arse off in emergency departments, walk in centres, gp surgeries etc. She is a band 7 at the moment, and earns a respectable amount of money. She bloody well earns it though. She does indeed sit on her arse doing paperwork. At home. After a 12 hour shift often spent doing things other than her actual job because the dept is so short staffed. Comes home exhausted day after day.
I’m a trained nurse and I got out of it a long time ago, there’s no way I could put up with what she does.
Maybe that’s the problem, I actually know what happens rather than basing my opinion on what the media tells me or what I think I know.

“Normal” hours for those on the Agenda for Change contract (which I believe includes nurses and other allied health professionals) are 6am-8pm on weekdays. Saturdays and evenings/nights attract a 30-50% premium. Sundays and bank holidays attract a 60-100% premium.

Many thanks.

So the ‘evening’ definition for the Doctors will be the same as Nurses etc, but Doctors wont get extra for Saturdays? (Although I’m sure I heard there was an offer of some kind of premium for Saturdays?)

the dr wanted that premium [ in return for a lower salary so it was cost neutral] but the Govt refused

Yup there was no offer that was part of what the BMA wanted to negotiate, Hunt refused then lied saying 20 Chief Execs agreed he should implement his initial proposal.

My biggest gripe about both nurses and doctors is the lack of observational skills – tear your head away from the screen and watch the patient walk through your door, also look at them when they’re talking with you.

Do a volunteer shift in A&E and you’ll see how nonsensical that comment is.

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/junior-doctors-strike-bma-offered-last-minute-improved-deal-hours-before-action-commenced-a6866076.html

The new offer, which Sir David’s letter said would see the majority of junior doctors who work Saturdays getting a premium rate, was sent late on Tuesday.

However, the BMA, which was given until 3pm to reply, appeared to reject the deal

Seems to be two different versions.

Ah my mistake. Hmmm! Set a short deadline that old trick.

The lies about the chief executives’ supposed support for imposition are just such a perfect symptom… A transparent lie that started to be refuted literally within hours and which he knew would never hold water but he just crashes on anyway.

But you can also see the wider problem here too- the inevitable response is being reported most places as “chiefs withdraw support” rather than “chiefs never supported this in the first place”

It only had to last until his Commons announcement, which it did. Liar.

Nurses are much less inclined to do hands on care than their non-degree qualified peers of 20 or 30 years ago.

Utter, utter tosh.

I’ve just received the letter setting out the terms of the contract and have been doing some number crunching based on my best guess on how the new contract works (it’s a lot more complex than my current one!).

I believe that I will personally be losing £1500 PA in the first year after imposition, and losing £4000 PA in the second (after which I hope I will be able to escape!). Interestingly, the old offer made in November was actually better financially for me – I would have lost £1200 in the first year but gained £4000 in the second.

It would seem that those in less than full time jobs (mainly women) will stand to lose a significant amount as they won’t go up the pay scales as quickly as before.

Doctors taking time out to do academic degrees will also lose, as they will not go up any pay scales whilst doing research (even though most still work in clinical medicine during their research) and will only gain the bonus for academics once they have actually submitted and passed their degree, rather than when they return to work.

£4k!

Shame on Hunt, how can he keep his job after so many lies?

Shame on Hunt, how can he keep his job after so many lies?

More than likely get promoted; or put more time into his directorship interests as a lot of healthcare companies are going to have a business boom.

Shame on Hunt, how can he keep his job after so many lies?

You think he’s employed to tell the truth?

Probably already covered, but I saw something in the press somewhere about Hunt’s mother and aunt being board members of a big private healthcare company. I assumed they were getting muddled up with Teresa May and G4S, but it makes you wonder…

He wouldn’t be the first politician to make the most of contacts made during his time as health secretary…

Patricia Hewitt joins BUPA board

Andrew Lansley is private advisor for drug firm

No, I don’t doubt it. Didn’t they used to at least have the decency (relative to the current lot, not by normal standards) to wait until they’d left politics.

As doctors pretty much sat at the top of everything, they were the targets to knock out as a first pass, and that’s been concluded- its really pretty much all over for any other public service now, as these tactics have been so effective.

I wonder who’ll be next.

Teachers? Possibly. Though it might be that there’s not a lot they can sell off and make money from in teaching.

…..Police?

I’m waiting to see the media campaign begin, and soon, to start gently chipping away at whoever is next in their sights.

They have already done the Police with the usual nonsense spin..such as them having outdated pensions not looked at for decades (They were looked at and revised in 2006 moving from a 30yr ‘career’ to a 35 yr one) The Police Pensions Act was an existing act of parliament that prevented the Police from getting shafted…so they removed it from the statute books.

The Fire Brigade, led by those donkeys at the FBU (remember the last fire strike in 2002 when their leader, Andy Gilcrist went on expensive meals while his members stood on picket lines not getting paid ? http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1424741/It-seems-that-the-FBU-leaders-817-curry-was-just-for-starters.html ) have also failed miserably at battling the Govt (Should have joined forces with the Police Federation and gone on the Public Safety ticket rather than going solo and only talking Fires)

The Armed Forces have also had a good seeing to but that is going somewhat tits up for those idiot at Westminster. They want to cut regular forces and double reservists…problem being that they are failing to get feet in boots for new reservists. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3139817/Army-fails-attract-30-000-reservists-ministers-wanted-boost-military-amid-huge-cuts-number-time-troops.html

I sincerely hope that the NHS will be the straw that breaks the British Publics back and that they will get up off their arses and get more involved. The year 2020 is a long time away

I havent read all the pages so forgive me if my question has been answered elsewhere.
but can anyone explain Labours position on the proposed contract?

I mean if the doctors hope to take on the government to get a better deal, then would Labour be looking to set up a new deal if they get in to power in the next election.

Considering the NHS is a labour favourite, I am surprised I havent heard more from them.
I have been out the country for a bit, so not totally up to date

their position is to sit back and let the tories show their nasty side.

I’m sure they’ll come to its rescue next time they’re in power 😆

Labour’s position- Corbyn’s response.

“Jeremy Hunt’s decision to impose a contract on junior doctors is provocative and damaging. Rather than helping to resolve this difficult dispute, his action will only inflame it.

The BMA has continued to table proposals to settle the dispute. The fact that the Health Secretary is now simply trying to impose his will rather than negotiate, demonstrates a lack of confidence in his own arguments.

We need to recognise the huge contribution junior doctors make and the years of training they go through to look after us. These are people dedicated to our health and our NHS.

Patients, doctors, the BMA and the public want an agreed settlement. What is now keeping this dispute going are the actions of the Secretary of State himself.

More strikes now look likely. If that happens, it will be clear that the blame lies with the government, not the doctors.

Even at this late stage, I appeal to Jeremy Hunt to go back and negotiate with the BMA.

This government is reckless with our NHS and is now prepared to put patient care at risk in the service of its self-defeating austerity programme.”

But he’s so crazy he’s not even in favour of setting the world on fire, so don’t listen to him

I believe that I will personally be losing £1500 PA in the first year after imposition, and losing £4000 PA in the second

It doesn’t seem to have even crossed your mind that you’re overpaid – entitlement syndrome?

Has it crossed your mind that he earns the money he is paid and doesn’t deserve to be forced to do the same job for less?
How happy would you be to have a pay cut in real terms forced upon you whilst everyone was told you were getting a raise? How much would you enjoy that? As much as you did making such an asinine comment?
Arsehole syndrome much?

It doesn’t seem to have even crossed your mind that you’re overpaid – entitlement syndrome?

Why are they currently overpaid? They could get a job in Wales or Scotland earning more money, and abroad even more.

Are you suggesting they are over paid compared to you ? If you are get your head in a book for the next 15yrs, make bigs sacrifices to your family life, work until your too exhausted to be working, then you too could be an over paid doctor. Get a grip FFS

My wife earns more than x 2 what I earn, and I earn slightly more than the national avg. I am not clever enough to be a doc, and quite frankly I couldn’t work the number of hours she works day or night.

Oh and that £4K over payment would just about pay for the exam that Mrs FD has just had to pay for to enable her to continue her training

Lots evidently

Has it crossed your mind that he earns the money he is paid and doesn’t deserve to be forced to do the same job for less?

I’ve been in a job and had a 10% pay cut – didn’t like it but it was the circumstances the time.

Arrogant know all syndrome?

Nurses are much less inclined to do hands on care than their non-degree qualified peers of 20 or 30 years ago.

I had to return to this, because it made me so friggin’ angry. I’ve just finished a 12.5 hour shift in an emergency surgical admissions unit, and every member of the nursing staff – student nurses, health care assistants, diploma-trained nurses, degree-trained nurses, senior staff nurses (several of whom started as ENs) – all worked flat-out in the face of immense pressure, and every one of ’em was “inclined to do hands-on care”. Nobody ignored buzzers, nobody acted as if tasks were “beneath them” – the unit would fall apart if that was the case.

How telling that you omit to mention how nurses’ clinical responsibilities (and acuity levels on general wards) have vastly increased in recent decades. I’ve spent the best of twenty years in the NHS, and if there’s one thing I know for sure, it’s that raw ability & clinical acumen always shine through, regardless of educational background. There are concerns about the academic content of nursing degree courses (e.g. reflective practice gubbins at the expense of fluid management) and the dubious (i.e. cheaper to employ) overlap with medical roles… but it’s utter tripe to suggest that there is a contradiction between academic study and simple (and I use that word in the best possible sense) compassion. What gets described as ‘basic care’ is not basic at all – it’s one of the best opportunities for proper patient assessment… I’d dearly like to see you walk into ITU and complain that the degree-educated nurses therein were “too posh to wash”… and whilst you were there, you could ask about the relationship between patient mortality and nurse:patient ratios. I’m not disputing that neglect happens, and that some people shirk their duty, but FAR more goes wrong because there simply ain’t enough boots on the ground… and in the mendacious slimeball Hunt, you have a creature who champions “patient safety” whilst also quashing the NICE work on safe staffing – and now he’s pretending that improved weekend services (and, for the record, EVERYBODY would welcome improved weekend cover – but it will be impossible with increased numbers of nursing, OT, PT, clerical & ancillary staff…) can be delivered by stretching existing resources ever more thinly. It’s a maths fail – and if you believe him, more fool you.

There are already yawning gaps in acute speciality rotas – an imposed contract will do nothing to fill ’em. Indeed, how ironic that many of the doctors working the “longest hours” (and at weekends) are the ones holding the line in ED, ITU etc. There is a massive disconnect between frontline reality and Hunt’s ongoing spin. He is not fit for purpose.

Teef-It’s a shame that’s happened to you, but why delight in it happening to someone else? I’d have thought it may actually give you a sense of empathy. Wouldn’t you have liked to attempt to change that? That’s what they are doing. It’s a terrible thing to revel in others misfortune because it mirrors your own.
I may be arrogant, in fact my wife would probably agree with you, although I certainly don’t claim to know it all. I do get annoyed by people making nasty comments like your last one.

Don’t blame teef; the game is divide and conquer.

Good post noteeth.

With one daughter training to be a nurse and another a doctor I listen to them discussing their training, jobs, the NHS and the government. They are far more serious, dedicated, conscientious and motivated than I or any of my peers were at their ages. They are certainly not doing it for the money and aren’t afraid of hard work. I despair at some of the comments above. I have lived and worked abroad for years and wouldn’t wish for the health care systems of any other country I have experienced. Carp at the care professionals if you want, but then ask yourself if you are really mean it and would wish for them to be badly treated, over worked and demotivated.

Sorry, I thought this was all about doctors being forced to work extended hours that would put their patients in danger?

Strangely all the talk about that seems to have gone quiet, and all that’s left appears to be the money…

God no ninfan – it’s about the government dismantling the NHS

and all that’s left appears to be the money.

Smooth talk from DoH will not paper over the (widening) cracks in cover… personally, medics working weekends in acute care are the last people I would target for pay-management. Aiming for a cheaper workforce will backfire, IMO.

Thanks gowerboy. One of my younger sisters is a paediatric registrar – and her academic ability and sheer graft far (far) outshines mine. The weasel Hunt, by comparison, makes me want to vomit.

it’s about the government dismantling the NHS

Like Scargill and the NCB? 😉

Like Scargill and the NCB?

in terms of end result ?
jury’s out, and it depends what you think the NHS is for