Ah i see plenty of folk falling for the great NI myth that it is somehow ring fenced and not simply just another

Who would that be then? I can’t say where anyone has said such a thing. Apart yourself of course with normal inane ramblings.

P.S. Could I have a completely unbiased view of the reasons for the dispute.

+1

What I don’t really get is the the BMA side. They say its is all about patient safety but if that is the case why is not every other person in the NHS striking as well. Would it not also effect the consultants the nurses, etc, etc. If it really is all about safety then wouldn’t it be the duty of any and every professional person in the NHS to strike as well.

To strike legally it has to go to a union ballot. As it does not effect all NHS workers directly they can’t ballot on it only the unions that it effects can, the BMA, in this case. As it that is for Dr’s only then only they can vote and take action, it was opened to Jnr Dr’s as it effects them. It’s possible that the BMA may call for an all out members of the BMA to fight it which means all members get a vote whether to take action.

As for what it’s all about. Well it’s explained many times over in this thread.

Apart from the bit that they want services 7 days a week but on the same budget. I guess spreading services over 7 days and not 5 is possible as the demand is the same but you treat patients over more days, however I am sure its si not as simple as that. In addition the doctors are only one tiny part of the NHS and actually you need all the nurses, X ray staff, lab tech, etc to be working 7 days and the costs associated with that.

This is exactly what the dispute is about. Why are we pushing for a “7 day NHS” when no-one can tell us what that means? We already have emergency and urgent care 7/7, and there isn’t a need for 7 day elective care currently. Even if there was, we don’t have the numbers of doctors to provide this. And even if we did, we’d need all the other healthcare professionals to buy into it as well to make it work.

What I don’t really get is the the BMA side. They say its is all about patient safety but if that is the case why is not every other person in the NHS striking as well. Would it not also effect the consultants the nurses, etc, etc. If it really is all about safety then wouldn’t it be the duty of any and every professional person in the NHS to strike as well.

The BMA only represents doctors, not nurses or other allied healthcare professionals. Therefore the latter group cannot strike unless their union (Unison, for the most part) ballot them on industrial action. I’m not sure, but I think consultants have various no-striking clauses written into their current contract.

To me on the outside it really does just look like doctors not wanting or liking to be told what to do and wrapping it up in the patient safety argument. If not why are all the other NHS staff not supporting them as well and as equally alarmed about patient safety.

Nurses, midwives, porters, consultants etc etc are all supportive of this action. They are all aware that they are in the firing line of Mr Hunt next. The exodus of junior doctors following this contract imposition will be nothing compared to the exodus of other healthcare professionals if they are treated in the same way.

Drs now , other parts of the nhs to follow sooner rather than later, or be tuped accross to private employers.

The consultants are most definitely up in arms about this since they believe they will be targeted next.

The brass tacks of the Drs position is that they can be made to work longer hours for potentially less pay. Extra hours means more tiredness which affects their (life and death) decision making. Having your wages cut for continuing to do the same job is gonna p*ss anyone off surely?!

The government can’t afford the increasing costs of the NHS so are trying to save money on their wage bill by getting more service provision without spending any more money they don’t have

Simples

Apart from the bit that they want services 7 days a week but on the same budget. I guess spreading services over 7 days and not 5 is possible as the demand is the same but you treat patients over more days, however I am sure its si not as simple as that. In addition the doctors are only one tiny part of the NHS and actually you need all the nurses, X ray staff, lab tech, etc to be working 7 days and the costs associated with that.

But you would gain in the utilisation of resources – higher utilisation rates of operating theatres, machinery, cat scanners etc. with the same level of demand spread over seven days (or indeed catering for expected increased demand using existing facilities) expensive assets not sitting unused. if you combine with greater centralisation of certain types of surgery (which seems to lead to better clinical outcomes). Then look at the wider picture with (potentially) less cancelled or missed appointments if they fit in better with peoples lifestyles.

massively complex calculations of what might or might not hold benefits in the longer terms.

Unlimited demand, limited resources to satisfy them…the old conundrum.

The brass tacks of the Drs position is that they can be made to work longer hours for potentially less pay.

Do the working time regs not apply to Doctors? 48hr max per week (averaged)? No less than 11 hrs between shifts. Minimum number of rest days etc.

http://www.bma.org.uk/support-at-work/ewtd/ewtd-juniors

Let’s make that clearer shall we.

working hours have been reduced from an average of 56 per week to 48, calculated over a period of 26 weeks.

Doctors are entitled to choose to work additional hours if they wish.

a period of 11 hours continuous rest a day (or compensatory rest to be taken at another time if this is not achieved).

a day off each week , or two days off in every fortnight (or compensatory rest)

a 20 minute rest break every 6 hours (or compensatory rest)

I’d happily pay more NI so everyone can get healthcare free at the point of delivery no matter who they are.

That implies that NI and healthcare are somehow linked, which they aren’t. Why not just say I’d happily pay more tax, why single out NI?

Did someone just fart?

Well those are the regs but I think you will find its not quite so clear cut if you talk to the doctors themselves.

“Dr’s can choose to work additional hours” however, staff shortages often mean that the choice is work extra or let Pts suffer because there are not enough staff to cover the whole (existing 5 day service) rota.

“20 minute rest break every 6 hours” – stopping people dying isn’t the sort of thing you can stop doing to take your statutory break. Many departments are so flat out, Drs feel obliged to not stop working so Pts are looked after.

Fundamentally this is about the Drs working conditions or wages being changed for the worse (as they see it) without anything to compensate it.

But broken record but…

…work in one of biggest teaching hospitals in Europe. We don’t have enough junior docs to staff rota without locums IN OFFICE HOURS MONDAY TO FRIDAY. So mor docs at weekend means we need more locums.

Applications for GP training, surgical training, medical training are all at record low this year.

We cancel elective surgery mon-fri due to lack of beds. Trying to operate electively on a weekend will just mean more cancellations.

We don’t have enough staff to safely staff Monday to Friday. The only way to have more weekend staff is to reduce weekday staff. That is not progress!

Told you … the demand will increase.

Does that mean if NHS is poorly there will be less “health tourists”? 😮

We do already – what you mean is that the sick will continue to pay for private healthcare as the NHS won’t pay for my lifelong medication despite having an exemption card

FTFY

I have paid out over £2K, plus train fares, for two visits to a private doctor in London.

Did someone just fart?

Somewhere in the world probably, why?

Now if the CH 4 fast facts is to be believed

Without being a fly on the wall in the negotiations, it’s hard to know what the real sticking points are. The BMA has made no secret today that it sees status of Saturdays as the main obstacle. At the same time, the doctors’ union is not conceding that all the other areas of disagreement in these complicated negotiations have now been completely settled. If it is the case – as the government claims – that earlier fears over unsafe working hours have now been allayed, this message has not trickled down to striking doctors on picket lines.

They are still telling the public, perhaps wrongly, that this industrial action is still at least partly about unsafe hours.

Then the only winners hers are the communications/PR/spin doctors employed by the BMA, since this thread shows this is the narrative that we apparently have to accept.

You have to take you hat off to the BMA, they are a bloody good Union and of course they have plenty of history here even going back to the origins of what they now (apparently) hold most dear.

That’s not “if CH4 is to be believed”- that’s “if the government is to be believed”

Sorry must have misread it. Are CH4 as bad as Auntie then?

But broken record but…

…work in one of biggest teaching hospitals in Europe. We don’t have enough junior docs to staff rota without locums IN OFFICE HOURS MONDAY TO FRIDAY. So mor docs at weekend means we need more locums.

You’re going to need even more when 50% of trainees bail out on completion of the foundation programme or core training. Problem of course is that this doesn’t just cause holes in the rota now but also means in ten years or so there is going to be a consultant shortage.

Still, I seem Jeremy ‘rhymes with’ Hunt has set up a public enquiry into junior doctors’ low morale, on the same day he has imposed the contract.

Are CH4 as bad as Auntie then?

Really don’t know what you’re getting at- the CH4 quote you gave makes no statements of fact, so it’s not a question of believing them or not- they’re reporting the government’s claims but expressly state that they’re not established facts.

I see. Must have misread it ^2?

Ch 4 really shouldn’t put such stuff in a section called FactCheck and certainy not in “The verdict” section. Quite dishonest of them.

What do you think is dishonest about it?

d. If it is the case – as the government claims – that earlier fears over unsafe working hours have now been allayed,

I think that right there sites that the ch4 website is just filling pages with content it can’t verify

Kind of amazed at some of the attitudes on here.
These guys n girls are Doctors FFS not Arthur Scargill.
If they say they are being pushed into an intolerable situation by a government who have never hidden the fact they are intent on de-constructing the NHS, why cant we just get behind them, with out obsessing out every tiny point.

Don’t it always seem to go – That you don’t know what you’ve got till its gone

The govt has shown the way for how easy it is to do this now- all you really need are a nicely compliant media, some ‘all in it together’ soundbites, and some petty jealousy among those who’d have us see the medics as having clay feet. Quite simple.

And then finally, when it wasn’t quite going Hunt’s way- he just pronounced that the negotiations were over. They can do that now, anywhere they like.

As doctors pretty much sat at the top of everything, they were the targets to knock out as a first pass, and that’s been concluded- its really pretty much all over for any other public service now, as these tactics have been so effective.

I wonder who’ll be next.

Teachers? Possibly. Though it might be that there’s not a lot they can sell off and make money from in teaching.

…..Police?

I’m waiting to see the media campaign begin, and soon, to start gently chipping away at whoever is next in their sights.

It’s done wonders for the morale of the nursing staff too. Those I inow are convinced they are next. Many, including my wife now looking to get out of primary care whilst the going is good. Two of her ENP colleagues quit this week, leaving another big hole in provision in the local ED/WIC. She’s thinking hard about jumping ship too, especially as the local GP surgery are desperate for a practitioner.

I’m not too sure where this is going now.

Doc will be moving to Wales, Scotland and abroad, quality candidates won’t be entering training, so your future doctor won’t look after you as well, the number of specialty training posts has been reduced, there is not enough funding for the support diagnostic services for 7 day working, funding has been cut by 25% for social care services so people can’t get out of hospital.

But to look at the positive, when it all goes tits up and they privatise it all at least Mrs FD will earn substantially more as a private hospital surgeon, and will only have to deal with nice middle class people, as more needy people in society won’t be able to afford the private health costs 😀 🙁

And then finally, when it wasn’t quite going Hunt’s way- he just pronounced that the negotiations were over. They can do that now, anywhere they like.

The only reason he played along for such a duration is the power the docs wield. In my (AHP) department they just announce a consultaion period and then 3 months later they impose the change they want; the actual outcome of the “consultation” is immaterial.
I really hope they stand firm against the govt (not just JH) on this – “everyone” else in the NHS supports them because the rest of us don’t have a prayer

It’s done wonders for the morale of the nursing staff too. Those I inow are convinced they are next. Many, including my wife now looking to get out of primary care

Yes have also heard the nurses fear they will be targeted yet and looking for ways out

Most other NHS workers have that same fear.

Well, who gives sh1t about poor people? They are just lazy and have only themselves to blame.

(Am I getting the hang of this Tory thing yet?)

If thats the case my pay is worse than I thought it was. So how does the person in dayshift dept get paid the same as me then?

They have already started on the nurses – bursaries going means less applicant’s, whose going want take on uni debt to end with nurse salaries? Or the high number of mature students who could only make it because of the bursary?

Nurses, midwives, porters, consultants etc etc are all supportive of this action. They are all aware that they are in the firing line of Mr Hunt next.

Out of interest what is the definition of “unsocial hours” for NHS Nurses, midwives & porters? ie The times at which they get extra pay for being at work.

They have already started on the nurses – bursaries going means less applicant’s, whose going want take on uni debt to end with nurse salaries?

Nurses already earn more than the median average wage – which of course covers many other graduates working in other professions, so simply puts them on a par with everyone else when it comes to how the training is paid for.

The Royal College of Nurses made a sustained push for nursing to become a degree level qualification. Arguably this at the root cause of so many people dropping out of nursing training (because it’s now very removed from patients for the early years) and the experience/ complaints from patients which is many newly qualified “degree level” Nurses are much less inclined to do hands on care than their non-degree qualified peers of 20 or 30 years ago.

Nurses already earn more than the median average wage

Average Nrurses wage is around £23k for 3 years of study.

And of course it switching degree level wasn’t the cause of so many dropping out. Utter rubbish.

Out of interest what is the definition of “unsocial hours” for NHS Nurses, midwives & porters? ie The times at which they get extra pay for being at work.

The national agreement on unsocial hours payments is set out in Section 2(a) (England) in the NHS Terms and Conditions of Service Handbook. To help employers deal with any questions from staff we have prepared the FAQs below.

Under this system, shifts starting on week days will be paid at the rate which applies to the majority of the hours worked as part of the shift, while Sunday enhancements will apply to the 24 hours from midnight to midnight. The effect of this for shifts starting at 7.00 pm and ending at 6.00 am, for example, will be:

shifts starting on Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday or Thursday: all of the shift would be paid at the enhanced rate;
shifts starting on Friday and ending on Saturday morning: all of the shift would be at the enhanced rate;
shifts starting on Saturday and ending on Sunday morning: the Monday to Saturday rate of enhancement for the hours 7.00 pm to 12.00 midnight and the Sunday rate of enhancement for the rest of the shift; and
shifts starting on Sunday and ending on Monday morning: Sunday rate of enhancement for the hours 7.00 pm to 12.00 midnight and Monday to Saturday rate of enhancement for the rest of the shift.

“Normal” hours for those on the Agenda for Change contract (which I believe includes nurses and other allied health professionals) are 6am-8pm on weekdays. Saturdays and evenings/nights attract a 30-50% premium. Sundays and bank holidays attract a 60-100% premium.

Link

Edited for rogue apostrophe