The Royal Colleges are a funny munch anyway – political doctors who have moved so far up the food chain they have forgotten what it is like on the shop floor – Only had contact with the paediatric lot and they are quite frankly a joke, so not particularly surprised they have come out with a statement like that – I would rather look at the hierarchy who are working – the consultant population – and see their view

I love the fact they support the individuals right to strike but not the fact they might actually do so, says it all to me

What the MRCs have said is as follows:
“The academy is urging both sides in the current dispute around junior doctors’ contracts to step back from the brink and re-enter negotiations in good faith so that an agreement can be reached. Failure to do so will have an adverse impact on the NHS and current and future patients.”

They don’t seem to have said – “a national strike is a jolly good idea” or “we fully support it”

You talking like JH was prepared to actually negotiate, which as we all know if bullshit. The imminent reality of a strike was required to pull JH to the negotiating table without his wonderful pre-requisites.

It’s astounding, (no really, astounding) how you keep coming back to this thread, trying to spin it back in one direction on your own. Bravo!

You seem very certain that he has a secret agenda to privatise everything so don’t you think that the Tories would be cracking on with that

Well idealogically (if you look at the Republican party and their support for a national health service which is where the Con’s get their ideas from) they do.
Unfortunately for the Con’s they have massive support from the blue rinse hair brigade who need a lot of support from the NHS and would be aggrieved if they had to pay for it at US style rates.
Hence their position of verbally supporting the NHS whilst actively outsourcing it.

They don’t seem to have said – “a national strike is a jolly good idea”

No one thinks it is “a jolly good idea”. It is a forced action of last resort. No doctor wants to strike.

I wonder if this had any influence on the position’s from the Royal Colleges?

As you say, they are pretty clearly in favour of the AIMS of the dispute.

In an unprecedented move, 15 leaders of medical Royal Colleges and Faculties have expressed their concerns over the recent junior doctor contract proposals. (RCP, 10th October 2015)

They don’t seem to have said .. “we fully support it”.

A few have, some more cagily than others. But they are not unions, so while they can support the concerns of the junior doctors (which they emphatically have) they are supposed to remain neutral on industrial action. So as you say it is all in the nuance:

“The Royal College of Midwives offers its support to the junior doctors if they take industrial action.”
— RCM

“We have strong empathy for the junior doctors and know that no doctor would make the decision to vote in favour of industrial action
lightly or easily.
… We have been clear to the Government that they would be wrong to try and impose a contractual settlement on junior doctors… we must continue to assume industrial action will take place which is the right of every
junior doctor.”
— Royal College of Surgeons

“The North East England Faculty of the Royal College of General Practitioners would like to show support for Junior Doctors in seeking a satisfactory resolution to their concerns about a new junior doctors’ contract…
Doctors choose medicine because they genuinely want to care for their patients and contribute to the health service. The junior doctors’ vote in favour of industrial action is an overwhelming indication that they do not think the proposed contract will enable them to do this.”
— RCGP

Even the joint statement issued by the Academy Of Medical Royal Colleges is clear that it supports the right to strike:

“The Academy recognises it is the right of any individual doctor to take industrial action within the guidelines set out by the General Medical Council.”

************* UPDATE *************

Talks have failed. The strike is back on! 🙁

No info yet on why talks broke down sadly. Interesting that JH reckons 15 of 16 issues resolved yet BMA say multiple unresolved issues

I wouldn’t trust Hunt with a sticking plaster, let alone the NHS.

I didn’t know much about the dispute so read up about it and what the new pay structure will be (good explanation here http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-34775980 ).

I honestly don’t know why they are complaining – the current situation is ridiculously outdated compared to any other profession which needs to offer 7 day or 24 hour services.

When I worked in retail I used to get more for a Sunday but people taken on a couple of years after me didn’t – just 1x pay (I got 1.5x ish). I could see why as most people don’t treat Sunday as special anymore (although on a personal note I wish they did)

A decent proportion of people in work don’t get any more per hour for working on a Saturday.

Even now in my cushy (LOLZ) public sector job I don’t get as good a deal as the doctors do at the moment.

Bizarre.

There will be lots of spin about how this is just about pay – but Hunt and DoH are consistently ignoring concerns about the removal of safeguards (e.g. financial penalties for Trusts who overwork junior doctors). Hunt’s use of stats to justify all this has been very dubious. And for somebody who claims to champion patient safety, he has been remarkably obstructive in the push for safe staffing (e.g. quashing the NICE studies on nurse:patient ratios).

It’s self-defeating, anyway – you won’t get a “7 day NHS” (whatever that means… I work in acute care, and we are open 24/7) by stretching existing resources ever more thinly. And given existing recruitment issues in areas like A&E, one wonders who DoH thinks will be staffing the frontline. It is a supreme irony that whilst calling for a (welcome) reduction in agency/locum spend, the DOH are simultaneously engaged in attacking the T&Cs of permanent staff. Ex-NHS medics and nurses are getting a welcome reception overseas, of course… 😈

Edit: in the event of a full strike, I would set Nick Seddon to work on the wards… just to see how long over-promoted policy wonks last in the real world.

When I worked in retail I used to get more for a Sunday but people taken on a couple of years after me didn’t – just 1x pay (I got 1.5x ish). I could see why as most people don’t treat Sunday as special anymore (although on a personal note I wish they did)

Yeah, but did your employer impose the ‘new’ lower Sunday pay on you, effectively cutting your pay?

Likewise, what if you were forced to work 6 shifts a week and were therefore guaranteed to work some of those hours at 1.5x, and were then told that those hours currently paid 1.5x were now only 1x = pay cut!

I’d say anyone was entitled to complain if they faced their pay being cut with all else being equal(it’s been a few months, I can’t remember if doctors currently in the system would have the new pay structure imposed on them or if it’s just new doctors). Furthermore I don’t believe all else IS equal as some of the safeguards preventing JDs being asked to work longer hours are proposed to be removed.

Less money, potentially longer hours, and the knowledge that a (or % of the) jealous public resent you your hard fought £50,000 salary? Wouldn’t you strike if you could?

Oh and finally I would be very dubious of the BBC’s reportage on the issue, they somehow neglected to report on the 20,000 (not including those who would have marched were they not on shift…) strong protest march on the streets of London on this very matter…

Interesting article on the Junior Doctor blog:

George Osborne in his latest Spending Review can announce a “half trillion pound settlement, the biggest commitment to the NHS since it’s creation”. Meanwhile, the chief economist of the King’s Fund, states the NHS is facing the “largest sustained fall in spending as a share of GDP”. David Cameron can say he’s invested “£10bn more into the NHS” while the chief executive of the NHS is aiming for “£22bn in savings”

Surely these widely varying statements aren’t compatible? So who’s telling the truth?

In fact, all of these statements are correct. No one is lying… technically.

More at http://juniordoctorblog.com/2016/01/05/its-the-spin-that-wins/

Oh and finally I would be very dubious of the BBC’s reportage on the issue, they somehow neglected to report on the 20,000 (not including those who would have marched were they not on shift…) strong protest march on the streets of London on this very matter…

just as they did for the firefighters march too last year. pretty much closed the centre of london down, but not a sausage on the bbc news…..

Complex issue.

Pay aside, a seven day service is now where near.

Many units rely on locums already to cover Monday to Friday and some rotas have 50% empty slots.

There aren’t enough docs to cover five days fully, never mind 7.

Thus the ‘7 day nhs’ is arguablaly a smoke screen for across the board paycuts.

It has all been evidenced in Salford, who themselves even say they don’t have a 7 day service!

So how would you provide a better 7 day service then? Without spending more money? Any ideas?

So how would you provide a better 7 day service then?

I wouldn’t – at least not until it’s demonstrated that it’s needed.

Robdob – we have a seven day emergency service.

Nowhere in the world had a seven day elective one.

Only way to have more staff on weekend is have less in week. So likely weekday complication rates will go up and weekend down a bit. There are many, many ways things could be better without more staff at weekends.

Nice article:
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/roshana-mehdian/hunts-cunning-stunt-a-guide_b_8938006.html

16 pages in and still repeating the Hunt line/lie that the NHS is not 7 days a week. Facts just seem to pass some folk by.

If the NHS isn’t a 7 day service why is my ENP wife going to work later today for a 10 hour shift in the ED?

If the NHS isn’t a 7 day service why is my ENP wife going to work later today for a 10 hour shift in the ED?

Well, either she has got her calendar mixed up, or Chunt is lying. I wonder which?

Nice smear campaign by The Sun:

Moet medics: High life of docs leaders who are heading up NHS strike
EXCLUSIVE: Pics show champagne-swilling lavish lifestyles enjoyed by striking ‘Moet medics’

“Look we trawled through their facebook photos and found that some of these doctors can afford to go on skiing holidays, meet elephants or even drink fizzy wine.”

Never let the truth get in the way of a good story eh?

http://www.buzzfeed.com/laurasilver/this-moet-medic-smeared-by-the-sun-was-actually-volunteering
http://www.buzzfeed.com/laurasilver/buying-waitrose-toilet-paper-because-yolo

The NHS isn’t 24 hours ? Cool I will tell MrsFla she doesn’t have to work this weekend (2 x 12 hr shifts on tops of a normal week – yay !

We should have a 7 day parliament to get stuff done gooder

I went to my local hospital for a scan in Saturday. Quite surprised and a very pleasant experience it was too. The delightful radiographer was not so happy though (unsurprisingly) as she had a full day of appointments.

Seen early, very efficient, pleasant experience given the intimate nature of the sessions 😉 I had gone in with a book fully prepared for a nightmare wait. But was quite the opposite.

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxj5ItDhaJw[/video]

Well isn’t that just grand.

Our esteemed Secretary of State for Health creates a confrontation leading to the first doctor’s strike in 40 years with 98% support from the union members.

And then the government just try to ignore it and hope it all goes away.

Yay democracy. 🙁

Is this the Hunt you are talking about … ?

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/health/more-heart-patients-die-as-hunt-gives-999-dispatchers-longer-to-send-ambulance-a3154171.html

Junior doctors give up protest because they’re so f**king knackered

I’ll always support doctors and the NHS. We’re very lucky to have them/it.

Any politician trying to screw either over won’t have my vote next year.

or Chunt is lying

The test for this is, did his lips move? Yes? He’s lying!

Is this the Hunt you are talking about … ?

In fairness, that’s a typical press misrepresentation of a very good idea (that certainly wasn’t Jeremy *unts) but unfortunately LAS are very, very broken. It’s working well in my Trust and evidence is pointing to it having a noticeable improvement on outcomes. The crux of the idea is that in cases where the patient is conscious (very first question) it’s probably worth finding out what’s actually wrong with them before we send a car and a truck careering across a city to a stubbed toe…

Doesn’t mean Hunt is not a complete **** though.

My junior doc colleagues 2 out of 5 joined the picket for at least part +)1 ended up going back in for the afternoon to help out anyway) of the day, 1 went into work as normal, 2 were at work in the uni so not in hospital

For the sake of anyone joining us from bluehelmet’s closed thread with an acute case of TL;DR

they want more monnneeeyyyy! Less work more pay please

Anyone who believes this hasn’t being paying attention to what the dispute is about at all.

They DON’T want more money or less hours.

The dispute is about the proposed changes to their contracts which would see them (or doctors after them) get significantly LESS money for the same work they do now and would also effectively remove the safeguards that prevent trusts from making them work dangerously long hours.

Is this the Hunt you are talking about … ?

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/health/more-heart-patients-die-as-hunt-gives-999-dispatchers-longer-to-send-ambulance-a3154171.html

Suspected cardiac cases are still dispatched the same there’s only change for suspected none life threatening.

GrahamS – Member
The dispute is about the proposed changes to their contracts which would see them (or doctors after them) get significantly LESS money for the same work they do now and would also effectively remove the safeguards that prevent trusts from making them work dangerously long hours.

GrahamS,

I think the Junior/doctors have actually targeted the wrong people i.e. they have targeted the govt when they should be targeting the management. They are Not the same people IMO.

If fact what they actually have is incompetent management ZM bureaucrats. You do know managers/management are recruited based on their paper qualification rather than their true ability to manage don’t you? You simply cannot blame the govt for the poor hospital management as if the Ministers are all working in the hospital everyday like the managers or the one that recruited them.

All govt personnel, regardless of Ministers, still need to get information from the management so the question is who feed the govt those information? Management of course … what do you think? Sacrifices their own job/salary/pay to feed the govt the true information or blame others?

As for the Union they are just the opposite of the management with the same intention of staying in power by stirring up others for their own agenda.

You lot are screwed!
We are all Screwed!
Welcome to the drone world of ZM bureaucracy!

🙄

edit: You cannot even manage NHS yet people are calling to join up to be full member of EU which is an even larger “organisation”! The problem will be multiply by millions … 😯

Are these people experts (those calling for full EU membership) in bureaucracy and the evolution of management in organisation? They really don’t know where they are heading do they?

why should any of my friends or immediate family be put at risk by strike? It’s a bit different from a bus driver going on strike, this could actually cost lives, shame on them …really shame on the effing lot of em.

Lets rewrite the hipocratic oath to **** you our contract is now more important.

Ps edit, I know doctors aren’t bound by this.

Data suggests strikes improve outcomes as more care delivered by seniors….

why should any of my friends or immediate family be put at risk by strike? It’s a bit different from a bus driver going on strike, this could actually cost lives, shame on them …really shame on the effing lot of em.

Lets rewrite the hipocratic oath to **** you our contract is now more important.

Ps edit, I know doctors aren’t bound by this.

Indeed, why even pay the selfish bastards? They should work for free because if they don’t it could cost lives! 😯

philxx1975 – Member
why should any of my friends or immediate family be put at risk by strike? It’s a bit different from a bus driver going on strike, this could actually cost lives, shame on them …really shame on the effing lot of em.

Lets rewrite the hipocratic oath to **** you our contract is now more important.

you do know they are only striking from non-essential duties?

heres a post a friend put on FB

BBC News…. “Mr Hunt said the number that had gone into work showed “the values of the vast majority of junior doctors”. Of 26,000, 11,000 showed up to work.
Just to clarify, Jeremy Hunt. I was in work today not because I disagreed with the strike or because I had higher values than my colleagues but because some of us had to to ensure people were safe. I don’t agree with you. I support my colleagues. You’re an idiot and once again you’ve demonstrated that.

why should any of my friends or immediate family be put at risk by strike? It’s a bit different from a bus driver going on strike, this could actually cost lives, shame on them …really shame on the effing lot of em.

The consultants and other colleagues are (willingly) covering the strikes.

The doctors don’t strike lightly – that’s why this is the first one in forty odd years – but worries about patient safety is one of the biggest reasons they are striking.

Where would they be on the Hippocratic Oath if they stood by and allowed changes to be introduced which they believe compromise patient safety?