Whilst I am not up to speed on terminology is that not more freeline than trail centre?
Obvs the phrase trail centre covers many things – heck you could call red bull rampage a trail centre if you wanted to but i am sure you understand the point i was making in reference to the majority of UK trail centres that we are likely to ride.

True, but I think the point he’s making is the trails are often intended to be harder than the way they eventually get ridden.

Take the much decried Swinley Red. Yes it’s all rollable and could be ridden by an idiot dragging their brakes the whole way round. But equally there are some pretty big gap jumps IF you link up the rollers rather than just pumping through them or riding slowly.

Conversely the Blue has a lot of tabletops, which are probably smaller than the gaps on the red, but for all but the 1%* or so that ride the red as intended the Blue has bigger jumps.

*for the avoidance of willy-waving doubt, I’m in the 99% for the most part.

When I only ride natural stuff I really start to miss hammering berms, it’s basically my favourite thing to do on a bike.

To me its all riding though and mostly based on driving distance. Cannock is closest so most often ridden. Cotswolds similar distance but less fun so almost never. Bringewood natural-but-manmade is a bit further and great but I don’t know my way around. Any better ideas from Warwickshire are welcome!

Stainburn is perfect to me, loads of good weather proof berms and rocks and also plenty of unofficial trails over the road

I enjoy both TCs and natural rides.

I’ve been hammering Whinlatter since the birth of little miss crumb. Handy and you know what you’re getting.

No.
What is the obsession with rooty hairpin bends with no flow?

Bridleways are boring except for scenery

Dung.

Plenty of bridleways in the Lakes that are far from boring, and more technical than most trail centres.

Parkamoor
Wharnscale
Rosthwaite

Need I go on?…..

I like them unless they’re rubbish.

Sort of related question is when does a trail centre stop being a trail centre? The ones I go to regularly (Glentress, Inners) I mostly ride the unmarked, hand cut trails. Is that still trail centre?

What about the Golfy? It has a lot in common with trail centres, but it’s not approved (though it is tolerated). Trail centre or not?

On the subject, this whole thing about ‘natural’ does my head in. People bang on about the Golfy being ‘natural’. It is natural except for the fact its man made trails in a plantation forest that was planted by man.

Funnily enough, bridleways are not a natural phenomenon either.

Junkyard – lazarus

It’s possible to ride A-line in whistler (a black trail

Whilst I am not up to speed on terminology is that not more freeline than trail centre?
Obvs the phrase trail centre covers many things – heck you could call red bull rampage a trail centre if you wanted to but i am sure you understand the point i was making in reference to the majority of UK trail centres that we are likely to ride.

Bike Park, but I think the point is that whilst it’s one of the most famous Man made trails in the world with a fearsome reputation from every MTB video ever of Thomas Vanderham et al throwing massive shaped 20ft off the deck, it’s also rollable*

You’ll only usually find no-rollable features on Black graded trails in the UK, and as someone said quite a few of them you can roll top to bottom – but that’s not the point – they’ve still got big drops and jumps on them, but they’re optional and/or have a safety net of a bit of trail to avoid some OTB crashes – but none of that is the point – I don’t know why the old TC v ‘real’ riding argument has to turn into a pissing contest of who’s choice of venue is hardest, if you think it’s impossible to enjoy a TC trail because it’s been “signed off” you’re mistaken, equally if you think it’s impossible to get into trouble at a TC I’ve got some savage x-rays and scars I could show you.

You know when they build these TC trails, they don’t start with a featureless hillside and drag in a load of features in on the back of a truck – they work with what’s there already and a lot of them started off as ‘natural’ or cheeky trails and got formalised – they’re basically putting in an-weather surface to make them usable by lots of riders in all weathers,

*not technically true anymore as they’ve had a bit of a re-do in WPB and it’s got a pretty big drop qualifier at the start now, but that’s not the point.

My personal preference leans towards natural riding ..but sometimes ( especially in winter ) a trail centre is the obvious choice when moorland riding becomes a boggy slog ..saying that when ground conditions are frosty & firm with a clear sky ..there is nothing better than a natural ride .
My 14 year old boy loves trail centres ..so if I’m lucky enough to be granted a few hours of his time that’s where we head ..
It also gives a chance to actually find out what’s going on in his life away from the ps4 & his mates ..so for that reason I love them ..
Also the way that mountain biking has grown & continues to grow ..what condition would our natural trails be in if that was the only option?
The main concern with regard to F.C.trail centres is the shortfall of funding after 2020 ..maintenance will be non existent in terms of materials as the Commission loses its Euro grant ..will this then eventually lead to full closures? ..
Cutbacks are already happening now to save money ..

@chiefgrooveguru – I think partly that’s what I meant when I said on the other thread about trail centres and bike moving forward together though obviously you don’t need a 160mm bike to do them.

I think there’s a language to trail centres that you need to know and understand to get the most out of them. So as a purely hypothetical example: keeping off the brakes on a particular blind corner because there’s a gap jump just out of sight that you need a certain speed to do. A couple of years ago I went to the Alps biking, the natural stuff was great, if at my technical limit, but the bike park stuff while a bit easier was, frankly, soulless and I really didn’t like it.

Most of the BWs in the Dales are fairly weather proof so there isn’t the driver there to head to a trail centre.

@ehrob – “natural” tends to refer to non-trail centre trails, i.e. they weren’t built specifically for biking, it doesn’t mean they aren’t man made.

Pjay gets it. Just because you CAN roll something, doesn’t mean that’s what it was designed for/you should do.

On the subject, this whole thing about ‘natural’ does my head in. People bang on about the Golfy being ‘natural’.

I think they mean it’s not tonnes of whacked down, shipped in stone, that’s all.

Nothing is natural, really, ‘cept maybe the mile long slab in Fisherfield…

Trail centres feel a bit like ‘riding by numbers’. Hard to describe, but that’s the feeling I get. Everyone following the same track like hamsters on a wheel.

Trail centre days are always forgettable for me. Days out in the countryside however I remember. For this reason I rarely visit trail centres.

I wouldnt go out of my way for a trail centre (possible exception of some winter trips to swinley but thats only an hour or so) but would put them into a weekend/week away happily. Will probably be stopping off at one tomorrow on way to weekends paddlng.
I did think of planning out a proper mountain day but the ease of rocking up and just riding does have its own appeal depending on time available.

I see the appeal but its not why I go riding
I dont mean to diss it or anyone who does it as I just prefer riding other things. I just never fear scared or like i am on the edge of my skill / wish I could stop as I am scared but its too steep to do so . I guess that is why you say go faster.

I do. Form part of the varied sport that I like. I don’t tend to go to them that often but would normally manage Kielder/Hamsterley/Glentress and Innerliethen once a year. They are different to the big open moorland rides typically on offer near me.

Generally though I find them a bit short and limited which is why I tend to stay away. I like Kielder because you can do some of the big XC routes there as well and get a good days riding in, I normally do the ride over to Newcastleton and then Deadwater. Hamsterley is close and I know loops out onto the moors. There is just a lot of Trail if you do both Innerliethen and Glentress Red+Black+Blue in a day.

Dalby, I never find that interesting. But you can use is as part of a nice big ride onto the moors.

Never really seen the advantage to me of the ones in the lakes when I have so many other options!

I go to Chopwell quite a lot too. Mainly because I can ride there from work for an evening ride.

Others, never really driven too. I wouldn’t drive for a weekend to do the other 7 stanes. Wales is miles and I’d probably want more riding than the trail centres offer. There is nothing worth riding on a mountainbike in the South, except the Quantocks.

if you do both Innerliethen and Glentress Red+Black+Blue in a day.

out of interest, how long does that lot take you ?

I like them (well the good ones) because you know what you’re going to get if you’re new to the area. Now I’m older, work and kids mean that my riding time is more limited so I want to enjoy it and slogging through bogs etc isn’t my idea of fun.

They’re not all equal though. Some are very good (Glenrress, Kirroughtree, Horton, CYB) but some are a bit rubbish (Llandegla, Ae and Penmachno are three that I’ve hated). Cannock is my local but I don’t really ride the main trails there much until winter gets really nasty because of the off piste, although none of this is natural.

Things like showers are nice if you’ve got a decent drive home – I’d rather sit in clean boxers than get jock rot!

Personally, I dunno how you can generalise – they’re all different ime.

Done some day trips to Afan and had superb rides. (Even Afan and Glyncorrwg are pretty different though usually referred to as the same place).

Did a week in Scotland, touring round trail centres – Glentress, Kirroughtree, etc – all very different.

Then there’s QECP, Swinley – get lumped in with trail centres, couldn’t be more different from the Scottish and Welsh places and are pretty unsimilar to each other!

And all brilliant on the right day as far as I’m concerned.

I have to agree with OP. There are plenty of TC nearby but I haven’t been once this year. I much prefer natural singletrack. I’m not bothered about fast flowy trails and doing jumps and drops that you get in the TC. Natural trails, at least in South Wales are usually more technical and steeper e.g. I’d always choose Wylie over Cwmcarn

I didn’t used to like/get them but now I do because I like jumps and stuff and there’s nothing like it local to us although there is some decent riding it’s not jumpy and droppy like it is at trail centres. We don’t go to our locals (Hamsters & Choppers) very often though, maybe once a month or so. I don’t think we’d make one further away (100 miles or so) a specific journey destination but if there happened to be one near to where we were heading and the bikes were in the van then it’d be rude not to have a potter round.

I much prefer natural riding although having said that as my local trails where the Surrey Hills I had both the trail centre type runs and natural xc. For 10 years I favoured weekends in the Peak District to Welsh TC’s (both similar drive, Peak a bit further). Never been to BPW which is probably a mistake I should rectify. For holidays I prefer Alps singletrack to bike park although try and ride a bit if that for variety.

Now my best local rdiing is at QECP so more of the TC feel. So my answer is depends what’s local really, if I drive 3 hours it’s for natural trails, views etc. Locally I want best bang for the buck timewise

One another thing which might add to the “I don’t like trail centres” is all those eBikers pushing you out of the trail in a climb. I have to stop 5 times last week at Swinley to let them passed me. I can see this is going to not please me until i got an eBike.

Yes. The bets riding I have done has been at trail centres – Glentress, Innerleithen, Kirroughtree, Golspie, Laggan.

I’ve done quite a few natural rides out of this Scottish Mountain Biking Trails book I have. They’re pretty good, and nice scenery but just aren’t as much fun?

I also have to drive since I live in a city but if I fancy going to Pentlands or something I’ll just go on the CX and enjoy the scenery – basically “go for a bike ride”. For “mountain biking” I’d prefer a trail centre.

not hate, but natural is just so much better… but id rather be on the turbo than a full lap of Swinley red. its hideous. yes your on your bike so thereby everybody is happy be default, but not at Swinley! having said that, I cant deny that Babymaker is one of my fave trails anywhere, so much flowy fun, i quite often just come in from Bagshot end and do laps of that!!

I was a full on TC snob up until i rode Llandegla again after a few years gap. frickin loved it! esp when you tie in Worlds end etc…

I can take my kids to the blues at CYB and Gisburn too.

Bridleways are boring except for scenery

no, boring bridleways are boring, just like boring bits of TC trail are boring.

There are some ace bits of TC trial, and some amazing BW out there too that are way more technical than ‘built’ trails.

I said it on the other thread but TC trails are designed to be ridden*, they might have differning degrees of difficulty but ultimately they’re designed to allow you to ride it.

Not necessariyl so with BWs, there’s a lot of BW stuff out there that is not only difficult and techy, but in some cases nigh on impossible to clean, or it is some days, not on others depending on conditions, just cos you can get a horse along it doesn’t mean it’s OK for bikes 🙂

I like both natural and TC, I ride both, I have fun at both 😀

* I think this is both a blessing and a curse, you know you’re going to get a ridable route, no hike-a-bike etc. But on the other hand I like the challenge and unknown of some natural stuff, and the variability with conditions is much greater compared to TC.

Love a good one 😀

Love a good non-trail centre ride too but I have been known to head off for a weekend and just do trail centres as that’s what I want to ride, especially in the winter.

Sometimes you just want to go for a ride knowing what to expect and how long it’ll take. No getting stuck in a bog, finding the trail no longer exists due to weeds or a fallen tree or just to get a ride in that you know you can do well due to familiarity is great. I ride Cwmcarn* so much that I’ve got a season car park ticket to save money 8)

Living in Cardiff, 6 months after buying a bike I discovered these places where you could turn up and for a couple quid parking you could ride trails when you knew where you were going and you weren’t going to end up hub deep in mud or trying to lift a bike over a barbwire fence as a farmer screamed at you for all the crimes any cyclist had ever committed ever – it was frankly disheartening to learn that not every town/city in the UK had a handful of TCs at its outskirts.

This is the problem I’m encountering as I’m looking to move away from the city. We’re spoilt far too much here with having a choice of natural, bridleways and world class trail centres on out doorstep. Having Cwmcarn 20 mins away ready for a quick blast after work or when the weather’s crap, Afan and Brechfa further away for longer days and BPW as an option is making me very spoilt. Add in FOD and you’re covered for most riding types in any weather. Struggling to find anywhere with a similar mix really!

* been riding there before it was a trail centre and regularly ever since, still not bored of it.

EDIT:

…you know you’re going to get a ridable route, no hike-a-bike etc.

Go ride the Marin, it’s got a deliberate bit of Hike-A-Bike mid-section 🙂

To me natural means unsurfaced, as others have said every trail is man made.

I like both (Trail Centre and not), but they’re a different experience for me (albeit with some cross-over between the wilder, more natural parts of trail centres), and there are crap examples of both genres.

The best thing about trail centres (for me, anyway) is that you can ride as fast as you bloody want* (dare) without worrying about meeting ramblers / horses / trees / ditches coming the other way.

And to echo the comments above, bridleways can be very good riding.

(*I don’t mean riding recklessly – you still have to consider other riders.)

I’m quite happy riding a trail centre, living on the south coast, I can go to Wales for a weekend, do both loops at Cwmcarn & have a day out at BPW (should be Trail Park Wales).

I know exactly what i’m going to get, and what condition it will likely be in.

Or, I could gamble and go off piste & not being a local, have a crap weekend of riding nothing interesting. Time is too precious for me to spend days exploring for potentially nothing.

I ride natural stuff locally & built, but natural stuff an hour or so away & ride bridleways to work. They are better than riding road, but still not engaging, or interesting.

The best thing about trail centres (for me, anyway) is that you can ride as fast as you bloody want* (dare) without worrying about meeting ramblers / horses / trees / ditches coming the other way.

hahahahaahahahahahaahah 😆

Sounds like so far you’ve been lucky, but apart from the ditch I’ve had every single one of those at a TC, and some of them more than once. I’ll also add cow, deer, dog, and Segway to the list.

out of interest, how long does that lot take you ?

It’s not that big a ride really, especially if you do the GT trails as one big loop, just re ride a few bits to join up the bit’s that don’t formally make up the same loop (i.e. climb back up to do the bits of the red that you miss by doing the black, and likewise the blue that you miss on the red).

I did most of GT in a very lazy Saturday with two or three breaks at the car for meals, and that was doing the proper loops each time. Slept at the campsite and then did the blue again Sunday before driving down to Inners. With a modicum of fitness and careful route planning to minimise excess climbing, doing the lot in a day wouldn’t be hard. The biggest challenge was the Inners climb, I was broken by the time I got to it and it took almost 3 hours and 2 bags of jelly babies! If I’d done Inners first that would be an hours climb at most!

This thread’s got me planning a GT trip after SSUK now! [wanders off to ebay to look for a cheap Cannondale Prophet].

I suspect that I’m alone here in never having been to one, basically because I don’t make riding trips to the UK.
If I was going to make a riding-specific trip then I’d rather go to so-called “natural” stuff among big mountains.

i know plenty of folk who have never been to one, they are quite happy just riding out of their front door! their bikes have never seen the roof of an audi…

I suspect that I’m alone here in never having been to one

Nope.

I’ve never been to a trail centre, despite living within about an hours drive of Ae / Drumlanrig / Glentress / Inners / Comrie.

It would turn an hours sweaty mincing into 2 hours semi-sweaty driving and an hours sweaty mincing.

There is lots of perfectly adequate mincing on my doorstep.

Yes

next thing you’ll be acknowledging the virtues of the xc course at Cathkin…

That’s a race course, not a trail centre. Generally racing away from staffies/junkies/neds and middle aged faceplanters…

I’ve never been to a trail centre, despite living within about an hours drive of Ae / Drumlanrig / Glentress / Inners / Comrie.

It would turn an hours mincing into 2 hours driving and an hours mincing.

There is lots of perfectly adequate mincing on my doorstep.

Interesting conclusion, seeing as you’ve never been there 😕

I can understand having opinions on things after experiencing them, but are you not even a little curious that there might some potential fun to be had?

I have lots of adequate and superb trails (both TC and Natural) on my doorstep, but that doesn’t mean I don;t want to visit other places to see whats there.

I don’t mean to single you out, but I’ve heard similar from other people about other places too and it just confuses me that people would write something off without trying.

Interesting conclusion, seeing as you’ve never been there

Which conclusion.?

The only thing i said was that i’d never been and that’s a hard fact.

I ride by myself almost all of the time and will, undoubdedly try all of these Trail Centres in the future when i’m with other people and making a day of it. I’m sure i’ll enjoy it immensely, but for now, that’s not how I play the game.

This is based entirely on my own acute self awareness of my fitness levels / bike skills.

I could go to Whistler and it would turn an hours mincing into a couple of long flights and an hours mincing.

I’m a mincer. The choice of trail won’t change that.

The trails are not the limiting factor here. It’s me and the limited time available in which I can ride.

OP
technicality: not really, I’ll do technical trails elsewhere that are as hard or harder than stuff at TCs. I tend not to want to do jumps or get air though.

Fear: (possibly tied to technicality) but unlikely. I climbed to a high level for thirty years and was quite content to push on into situations where a mistake meant serious injury or death.

Crowds: even with a full car park once you get going you are unlikely to see many people unless you stop or come across a group that’s stopped. You might hear a few whoops and shouts but that’s about it.
technicality: we ride at some pretty gnarly trail centres up here in Scotland….
fear – depends how much I choose to push myself – there is *always* something bigger and scary-er…
crowds – don’t go to Glentress on a sunny August Saturday afternoon…(or even Comrie on a similar now…)

Overall, I enjoy them, but would be depressed if that is all I rode. I love a good out there ride, natural terrain, wild places…