schoeller eXtra dry anyone? (spelling?)

you get wet fairly easily, but you stay warm as it's windproof, and the second it stops raining you start to dry off. Brilliant.

The actual manufacturing process is a closely guarded secret, rubbish!

Anyway what are we all talking about, just looked at chain reaction and the new Campag waterproof is a whopping £439 so it MUST be waterproof and MUST be breathable if not how do they justify the cost.

Event is more breathable as the holes are larger but also means that its not as waterproof although I,ve never really noticed this. I have a gore fusion and an Endura event, the event is more breathable and the gore better suited to really awfull cold and wet days both are brilliant!
Having said all this I only wear them when I have to

joemarshall, i agree 100%, buffalo's rule, even if they can look a bit geeky. i won't go into the mountains without my buffalo belay jacket, i love it. the Montane pertex/pile range looks great too, same idea. Montane are working on some bike-orientated stuff with one of our team riders who's got aims in snow racing, looking forward to seeing if they go ahead with it.

Buffalo stuff is cool but not so much use for those summer showers!

It's all relative, my Altura Attack jacket (which is React Extreme I think) is completely waterproof, and moderately breathable. Better than a more traditional waterproof in both directions. But, still not perfect.

Breathable waterproofs can be tested as to how much liquid they can transpire out in a given period. None I have ever seen come anywhere near transpiring the amount of sweat I produce on a half decent climb. So the answer is , yes they are breathable but no, not breathable enough.
I think the key is as people have said getting wicking undergarments.
I notice if the weather isn't too cold but I am wearing Goretex cos it's raining my arms get really wet from the inside of the jacket but it doesn't seem as bad if I have long sleeves.

Buffalo

One layer kind of commits you to the conditions you expect, I'd rather layer and be able to cope with warmer or coller temperatures.

Layers and windstopper, save the goretex for when it's chucking it down.

Well, as someone who owns clothing in: Paramo, GoreTex Paclite, GoreTex Pro Shell XCR , North Face Hydrolite, Patagonia H2NO (x2), eVent, Endura's own fabric (x2 types), Palms fabric (x2 types)…and previously owned Helly Tech, Lowe Alpine TriplePoint, various Goretex; plus have a staff encased in as much shiny breathable kit as you can imagine, I guess I could have a good viewpoint…

Overall, breathability has to be put in context – some is very breathable in dry conditions, but struggles in wet conditions(!), some stuff lasts 5 minutes (eVent and Paclite), some stuff works n works n works (Patagonia H2NO, Lowe Alpines (superb) TriplePoint Ceramic) but at a marginally lower rate than others.

Me, breathability is nice, but waterproofness and longevity come first.

The Paramo stuff is good, very good, warm, soft n cozy. Perfect for long cold days on the hill. Less enamoured about how regularly I have to wash in TechWash to keep it beading up/not wet out (like fortnightly at the moment), or how long it takes to dry when it does get wet. PLus they are cut like a sack of spuds. Too hot on some days as well.

Longest lasting/most waterproof was/is my Patagonia Jackets and Trousers, the Lowe Alpine Triple point and the (Pataginia) GoreTex Pro shell XCR and trousers.

Worst stuff was an old Helly Tech jacket or (gasp) my first trousers in Sympatex….and my eVent jacket.

Rumor in the outdoor world is that many of the fabrics are designed with a 'life' and will delaminate after 3 years typical use (average 90 or so days use). So 4 months for me….

*edit* – cut is far more important that breathability IMHO, as is ability to vent easily.

I've got a Lowe triple point and its going down the charity shop. Tears way too easily, had to get it patched twice and lets rain in like seive despite being treated twice as per manufacturers spec. Its back to the Barbour Bushman, heavy duty waxed cotton with a lining for surveys now, heavy but warm and very dry inside. Will probably see me out.

Canondale carbon jacket with wicking layer underneath works a treat on the bike.

Buffalo jacket [pertex with pile lining] was good out on the hill but a bit fragile and didn't really keep water out just kept me warm.

Just paid £30 for an RN issue breathable jacket, have to see how that performs

Can't comment on Event but the gore-tex stuff I have has worked really well.

I don't wear my hard shell for biking, generally merino baselayers and a windproof shell work better for me, no problem being wet if you're warm, with an extra layer I can put over the top if I stop for any length of time.

There are times when something properly waterproof is great though, weather like this

I was dry, my camera which was kept in the coat pocket was dry, and rain that heavy keeps you cool enough that breathability isn't a concern – can't ask for any more from a 5 year old jacket that's never been re-treated

My 5 year old walking boots have also got a goretex membrane, still totally waterproof even though the rand is coming apart and one of the soles is delaminating.

As another saddo with way to many jackets I find all of the waterproofs just get me as wet as wearing a windproof. I had Goretex but couldnt stand that cold wet innner feeling if wearing a short sleeve baselayer-oh and they boil me in a bag.
Switched to eVent better than goretex as the sweat passes through as a vapour but still boil in the bag.
Buffalo Special Six-way to warm for anything above -5C when exercising hard but I have two of them for all other times during winter one for work one for dog walking when no one else ventures out.
Rab Generator Smock-my favourite all conditions winter riding jacket with a merino baselayer lovely and warm even when fully wetted out in sub zero and beyond.
For all other times on bike I wear Montane Velo windshirt.
As for walking/work I have a selection of Paramo jackets-they are very good, easy to look after and there is no panic if you snag them or rip them, just stitch it up reproof and way you go. they are however up to the advent of the Quito jacket too warm for high intensity riding. The newer thinner fabric design should mean that they are more suitable to those higher energy activities.
As for Ventile fabrics that someone mentioned earlier you can still buy it on the roll or as complete garments but they are VERY expensive and take forever to dry and can be very cold when wetted out if you have insufficient layesr beneath.

The Goretex PTFE membrane used to be far more consistent in pore size than the competitors (when looked at under an electron microscope). It's this consistency & ability to control the different membranes pore size well that makes the Goretex process 'better' and that's why it's closely guarded. How much difference this makes to the ability of Goretex to breathe better than competitors I'm not sure (it's probably more use in other applications such as filters etc.).

The main reason you shouldn't buy Goretex is the method they use to price the stuff……it's based on the maximum they think us mugs will be prepared to pay, not on any actual value or cost of manufacture. Hence you're probably paying £100+ more than you should be for a jacket just because of the brand name.

To my mind, the fit & finish of the jacket has more bearing on whether it'll work properly for it's use & be comfortable when you're working hard.

what gets me is than manufactures live in a fantasy world, my Gill Speed Pro was replacement for a model of the same material (eVent) but it had pit zips, excellent idea, so what did they do… phase them out on the Speed Pro because the materials breathability meant they were not required.
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Muppets!

Hence you're probably paying £100+ more than you should be for a jacket just because of the brand name.

My Mountain Hardware Goretex XCR jacket cost 100 quid, are you saying I should be given a jacket free? 🙂

I bought an Altura Nightvision jacket last year which I used for commuting and the odd wet ride – this was pure Boil-In-the-Bag despite the pit-zips and vent pockets. I soon got wet inside but it was comortable for up to an hour of moderate effort, anything over that time or hard effort and the water would be running down the inside.

I pushed the boat out and bought a Gore Fusion which is a very different beastie – yes it gets a little clammy inside but nowhere near that of the Altura.

I matched this with some Endura Event breeks for a 3hour ride in the pissing rain two weeks ago (rain which saw the two rivers in the town where I live burst their banks, flood the town and put us on the BBC news).
It was even fine for that length of time – a little wet inside but nowhere near that of outside.

I don't think it's miracle stuff but it's better than a bin liner.

Dave – Moderator
Buffalo

One layer kind of commits you to the conditions you expect, I'd rather layer and be able to cope with warmer or coller temperatures.

Thats been disproven in recent tests. Fewer layers that can be better varied (mostly ventilation) are better suited to some activities, including a few high energy ones.

I've got an eVent jacket whose performance is either ok with one base layer I have or very good with a different base layer. The good base layer is a £10 Altura one the not so good one is a DHB. The Altura one ends up damp on the outside but feels much dryer on the inside whereas the DHB one feels as damp inside as out. So my view is get the base layer right first before you worry about what is going over it.

"Buffalo

One layer kind of commits you to the conditions you expect, I'd rather layer and be able to cope with warmer or coller temperatures."

i disagree, the venting of a montane / buffalo style top is why it can work across a wider temp range than you expect it to, and you don't need to stop and faff relayering to suit conditions or effort. ideal when riding or confined for space on a crag.

what gets me is than manufactures live in a fantasy world, my Gill Speed Pro was replacement for a model of the same material (eVent) but it had pit zips, excellent idea, so what did they do… phase them out on the Speed Pro because the materials breathability meant they were not required.
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Muppets!

Couldn't agree more I have a Gill eVent jacket and it's been a massive disappointment – real boil-in-the-bag. Desperately needs pit zips.

IME I have had waterproof and breathable jackets from Sprayway,TNF,Lowe Alpine,Berghause and Karrimor .The only one that is fully waterproof is the Karrimor jacket and thats the only goretex one , None of these are any good for riding though.

Pertex is the best I have had for riding

just my opinion

who realy cares?

I wear my waterproofs only when it gets seriously cold and wet. that's when they work their best, and that's in order to keep me from freezing my nipples off!

IMO anything above ~10 Deg C when raining is best dealt with using (at most a gilet) and normal riding gear.

also when up the top of helvellyn in november during a force 10, you also appreciate a proper waterproof

I too like the buffalo concept, rather be warm and wet from rain than cold and wet from sweat..

freeandsingle – Member
I too like the buffalo concept, rather be warm and wet from rain than cold and wet from sweat..

Dunt work like that IME….. You storm up the hill overheating and getting soaked with sweat then stop for 10 mins whilst you merrily freeze even though you've done up all the zips and put yer hood up. If it's really raining you just get wet to the bone, then really cold when you stop. With Buffalo I usually end up carrying a base layer, shell and pertex just in case… not exactly light or efficient.

My all time favourite is a base and pertex and going for it at every opportunity. On the go, mostly warm enough/generating enough heat with the base layer. Bit colder, add Pertex. Colder still? Microfleece mid layer. In this country during high energy hill work, I rarely use more than a base/mid/pertex combo or breathable shell if pishing down. Buffalo is good for sitting on belays tho…

Mountain biking I use even less insulation as I generate more heat.

Been using Gore-Tex since the first Mistral's in the late 70's. Not tried Event yet as I have a motley collection of XCR/Pro/Paclite to get through first….

Paramo.

I've had my alta jacket for more than ten years now and I've never been wet in it. It is weird though because it feels like you are wet but you're not. It's heavy, warm, sometimes too warm and not especially stylish but neither am I. On winter days in the mountains you progressively zip up and put your hood up as you get higher – the cut and draughtproofing works for me. I've worn it most days in that ten years and it's pretty shabby now but no less effective!

Another vote for Paramo here, particularly if you use their mountain shirt as a base layer. Generally I just use a mountain shirt with a simple wind proof, if it gets really bleak I chuck on there full jacket, and it dries out the inner layer.

At the end of the day much of it comes down to how much you perspire, I have friends that are fine in Goretex, I just feel like boil in the bag for any thing other than gent walks.