And to think that roughly 5 million of us could have been shot of all of that shower of shite for eternity…

The average working man has a mix of views that range from far-right to far-left. He’s tended to vote Labour because they were more representative of him in the past (even if he didn’t agree with all their policies), however in recent years it’s become apparent that the NuLab leadership are a lot more similar to the Tory leadership than they are to him. While Labour have definitely moved to the right it’s not necessarily on the policies that interest him (e.g. immigration).

In France local authorities in the south have swung from far left to far right as voters switched from communist to front-nationale.

Eventually time proved that Tony Blair turned out to be even worse than I had dreaded.

But surely better than the alternative from your perspective, a Conservative government ?

Whilst some are comparing Dan’s politics with political parties I think it’s more interesting to compare him with the stereotypical STW member:

White van for transporting bikes.
iDave diet follower – judging from appearance, yes.
Tattoos, yes.
Wears sporting attire.
Home owning DIYer.
Always buying and selling cars.
And those politics are very much core STW, especially the poppy thing.

In fact Dan must be a geezer off here and I claim my five pounds.

Diane Abbot and Rachel Reeves need to get their stories together*. Is your man incompetent or utterly correct?

* although this is from the (hard to describe) dan hodges in the Torygraph this morning.

But surely better than the alternative from your perspective, a Conservative government ?

Not necessarily. To give just a couple of examples – the Labour Party, even under Tony Blair’s leadership, opposed every single privatisation carried out by the Tories, and when I say every single privatisation I mean every single privatisation, ie, there wasn’t the occasional privatisation to which Tony Blair said “OK, despite our opposition to previous privatisations this is one privatisation that we can support because we think it makes sense”, it was total opposition to privatisation which resulted in Labour voting against all privatisation legislation.

This strong opposition by Labour to privatisation slowed down the process as the Tories were forced to attempt to justify every piece of privatisation legislation, for example Thatcher had to abandon her ill-concieved attempt to privatise British Rail something which was left to John Major to do following another general election.

And this Labour parliamentary opposition to Tory privatisation continued right up until the Tories lost the 1997 general election, then once in power Tony Blair decided that one of the problems with the UK was that the Tories hadn’t privatised enough and embarked on his own privatasition programme, something he was able to very effectively do without any opposition from Her Majesty’s Opposition, a luxury which the Tories never enjoyed. Tony Blair signed 40 times more private finance initiatives than John Major, without a squeak from the opposition.

Similarly no Tory government would have enjoyed the easy drive to war which Tony Blair did. There is little doubt that in opposition Labour would have been far more reluctant to go to war, which combined with huge public opposition would have things much harder for a Tory government.

But having won the general election and knowing that a neocolonialist war would undoubtedly receive the full backing of the Tories in parliament, Tony Blair was able to pledge to George Bush that he would go to war long before the UN inspectors had packed their bags to go to Iraq.

I think it was after the 2005 general election that Ann Widdecombe hit the nail on the head and in a TV interview said “OK we lost again, but we set the agenda, that’s what counts”.

It’s not just about winning, it’s also about having the right policies and setting the agenda.

There is little doubt that after 18 years of Tory governments John Smith, had he not had a dodgy ticker, would have become PM in 1997, that would have been a better alternative to the Tories from my perspective, Tony Blair wasn’t.

I think it was after the 2005 general election that Ann Widdecombe hit the nail on the head and in a TV interview said “OK we lost again, but we set the agenda, that’s what counts”.

There was a similar point made in the Spectator this week about the present Tory Party having its agenda set be Mr Farage. That what the Tory party is actually saying, through their present stance is ‘UKIP are right. Please don’t vote for them’

Its one of those for the Tories they are in the business of chasing votes
They are lossing voters , party members. Mp’s and constituencies to UKIP what would you suggest they do if they want to win the election?
Do they have a choice?

And those politics are very much core STW, especially the poppy thing.

In fact Dan must be a geezer off here and I claim my five pounds.
We must read different forums – I think you get a broad spectrum of opinion on here tbh. The left tend to be the nosiest if not the greatest in number IMHO

Ann Widdecombe hit the nail on the head and in a TV interview said “OK we lost again, but we set the agenda, that’s what counts”.

Except she was wrong, because whatever agenda, promises and concessions you drive the other party to make in the runup to the election matters not a sausage if they have no intention whatsoever of carrying them out after winning it.

See aforementioned recent labour promises to be tough on immigration etc. alternatively those from the alternative political view might cite the Tories promises of no top down reorganisation of the NHS or certain pledges about tuition fees from the lib dems.

(Ernie, for what it’s worth you’re thoroughly wrong about me being a UKIP supporter, you know very well that I stated on here that my vote would continue to be settled on a single issue, and it wasn’t europe – equally, my current MP is Gove, and a very nice chap he is too, how could I consider depriving you lot of him?)

aforementioned recent labour promises to be tough on immigration etc

Probably better to talk about no if no but claim by the Tories that they admitted have little chance of success.
What is the single issue then ? Gnenuine Q as i missed it and in the spirit of openess here is my voting views.
FWIW i continue to vote for the party most likely to beat the Tories

I think i would struggle to vote lib dem this time , though i have done tactically in the past.
I would rather poke my eyes out with a shitty stick than vote UKIP and even i would vote tory to keep them out – wont be an issue where i live it will just help Labour secure the seat IMHO- its a swing seat.

I vote green when we have PR.

Junky, see here

Personally I maintain that voting for the person and their abilities/views as a representative are more important than party (for example, Alan Johnson and Frank Field remain the standout politicians in the Labour Party, and I would happily vote for either of them as my local MP, hell, I’d even consider a vote for Skinner!)

Edit, ps I would reiterate something I said in that thread:

If the whole Mountainbiking community got together (yeah, right!) and said we would only vote for a local MP who would support our campaign for increased access, then we could at least begin to raise the importance of the issue on the political agenda.

We should learn the lessons of the Ramblers, and of a thousand other minority pressure groups.

But, well, feckit, we just want to ride our bikes, right

Just to be clear, I’m talking here about a minority group of blatant racists. Not the average person in the street. As you still live there perhaps you can put me right about the true nature of a George Cross hanging outside someone’s front window? Maybe I’ve got it all wrong and they are just showing some good natured patriotism

Its really simple anyone flying any flag from their home is……..daft ! but because its a council house doesn’t necessarily make it a racist act.

Are council house dwellers somehow worthy of contempt?

Is the infamous photo of a council house?

Ta

You have spreadsheet dont you 😉

As you insist on making the this a Labour/Tory issue Junkyard, which I don’t think it is. I’ve found posts to support all the aspects of the Danifesto on Labour’s own site. Here’s one about Dan:

A Labour supporter on Dan and Immigration.

I think this row is a reflection of cross-party British attitudes which are refected on this forum. How many STWers are prepared to stand up and condemn Dan’s manifesto point by point.

His point about selective immigration (it would have to be for the whole EU) I agree with.

I’d say no benefits until 18 rather than after four years work. With parents financially responsible for their offspring on a means-tested basis until 21.

I agree with him on transport, with the proviso that “roads” includes cycle and pedestrian infrastructure.

I agree with him on education but wouldn’t need the cane in my disciplinary system. Just the support of the legal system.

Justice – I don’t agree with him on this one. Sentencing should have rehabilitation, education and reinsertion as priorities rather than revenge.

Taxes – absolutely.

I’ve found posts to support all the aspects of the Danifesto on Labour’s own site.

Ninfan already did this/tried to do this. The problem is Dan can work out whether he is right or left wing, and voted Tory, but you and ninfan seem confused as to what way his politics lie.
Condemn point by point – you are not willing to embrace it without caveats.

OK for yiu

1. The disabled are in trouble with his must work for 4 years rule – no its a stupid idea

2. Immigration – no

3. Transport – everyone agrees public transport costs to much but folk wont pay higher taxes to sort this. We also want everyone else out of cars not ourselves. like you I would also like to see cycling promoted

4. Education – who does not think discipline and respectful kids is not a good idea? Every generation thinks the next is a feral and lawless brood. Corporal punishment is anachronistic and cruel and no solution to this.

5. Justice – I agree with you – rehabilitate and reduce recidivism

6. “self employed folk like me ” – No I think of the collective good in taxes and not just ME , ME AND ME.

I am not sure how anyone can read his danifesto and think he is anything other than right wing tbh

Some of the issues raised are universal – who does not want nice kids? Cheap transport? Better prisons etc It is how you wish to achieve these that defines whether you are right or left wing IMHO
I would vote for yours but not his FWIW

she is however useless New Labour. Islington South should have gone Lib Dem two elections ago but so single the local yellows messed it up

It’s the kind of language thick working class men use when they are confronted with women who are more successful/cleverer than they are are.

Anyway people like Whelan, Clarkson and the skinhead involved in this story are products of a bygone era who thankfully, will one day be dead. I’ve got no time for them, I was watching a program the other day “It was alright in the ’70s” and the level of racism and intimidation thrown at ethnic minorities, women and gay people just on the television was utterly horrific. The kinds of people who complain about PC gone mad are utter cretins.

Ageist! I’m the same as Clarkson and Bono. Grim eh!

😈

My serious response would be that it’s not the same as racism or misogyny as it isn’t being used as a basis to cement or hold power over another group.

😈

Thornbury is the worst sort of idiot; a well-meaning and condescending one. It was right for Milliband to fire her and really, I question whether someone with her standing in the justice system should be making such summary, subjective judgments about ordinary people. It’s worrying.

Despite the best efforts of people like Frank Field to get the party onto the same page as very large numbers of voters out there – core Labour as well as swing voters – they seem to be doing their best to portray themselves as the de-facto representatives of the nicer bits of North London and no many other places besides.

It’s funny how Labours support has gone up since this ‘scandal’, maybe Milliband should be jumping on the bandwagon to take the piss out of the skinhead.

I think that this idiot’s faux outrage will lend a lot of satirical ammo to the left, I can’t imagine many proper upper middle class Tories being particularly sympathetic either.

whether someone with her standing in the justice system should be making such summary, subjective judgments about ordinary people

Its not about “ordinary” people its about flag flying people. this is not “ordinary” anywhere i have ever been . In fact its only ordinary at certain events and by certain types.Really what is controversial about going nationalistic flag flying types are more likely to vote UKIP? Who is upset and surprised by this?

they seem to be doing their best to portray themselves as the de-facto representatives of the nicer bits of North London and no many other places besides.

Indeed. After Millibeans disasterous attempt to meet ‘real voters’ in Scotland, where he ended up hiding in a shop, John Harris summed up the man, and the group of yes men who surround him perfectly …

“A political book club who’s antenna stop functioning outside North London”

Its not about “ordinary” people its about flag flying people. this is not “ordinary” anywhere i have ever been.

Really?

According to Ed there’s nothing unusual, odd or bizarre at all about this!

[video]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vF3EnYb6HOQ[/video]

Junkyard – lazarus

whether someone with her standing in the justice system should be making such summary, subjective judgments about ordinary people

Its not about “ordinary” people its about flag flying people. this is not “ordinary” anywhere i have ever been . In fact its only ordinary at certain events and by certain types.Really what is controversial about going nationalistic flag flying types are more likely to vote UKIP? Who is upset and surprised by this?[/quote]People have a right to fly flags and without having sweeping generalisations assumed of them, especially by those who, by dint of their ambition and position, seek to lead and sit in judgment over the population.

Really?

Yes really. Most people don’t have a multitude of flags hanging from their roof gutter.

Why are you providing what Ed Miliband says as evidence Z-11, because he’s leader of the Labour Party and you want to play silly point scoring party politics ?

For someone who has just made the case on this very page that politics should transcend party tribalism you are very quick to want to score party political points with your taunting.

I guess that at the end of the day you will never cease to be a hypocrite.

People have a right to fly flags and without having sweeping generalisations assumed of them, especially by those who, by dint of their ambition and position, seek to lead and sit in judgment over the population.

You mean like Muslims are allowed to be exempt from sweeping generalisations as well Digga? Something that you and a few others on here are rather good at doing.

That’s the thing with the right though, it’s okay to generalise brown people but my god if you generalise a poor ickle working class white man it’s all “down with the liberal elite”!.

It doesn’t really matter about whether she was being condescending and mocking (she definitely was IMHO). Politics is about all perception. And the perception is that she’s loftily sneering at the working classes. Not necessarily just the flag flying ones.

If you’re a politician you know this. Or you bloody well should do. What she did was a gift to the Tory Press, giving them a narrative to completely throw the spotlight off a hideously embarrassing day for the Tory’s, and turn it harshly onto her own party instead.

Therefore her opinions on the working class are irrelevant really. The point here is that she’s a rubbish politician! In fact, a complete liability. Just like Ed really. Thats why she’s gone. And Ed would be gone too if it weren’t too close to an election to ditch him

Therefore her opinions on the working class are irrelevant really. The point here is that she’s a rubbish politician! In fact, a complete liability. Just like Ed really. Thats why she’s gone. And Ed would be gone too if it weren’t too close to an election to ditch him

Has it really actually hurt labour in the polls though?

I see a lot of huffing and puffing over what has effectively been a non-story for the Labour party.

And the problem with that is?

Its fine if thats what you want to do. Sneer away. But when you’re then relying on their votes to keep your place on the gravy train…. maybe not too bright to do so. Especially via the medium of twitter for the whole world to see you sneering

Edited my trolling comment binners. See above, I don’t see how it’s actually hurt Labour that much. Perhaps the Labour demographic sees through this story?

In my eyes the story has given ammunition to lampoon the right and UKIP further.

I agree its a storm in a teacup. I think what it shows is the calibre of the labour front bench. i.e.: completely politically clueless

Need good old Mandy back at the reigns….

That’s the thing with the right, it’s okay to generalise brown people but my god if you generalise poor white man it’s all “down with the liberal elite”!.

It was my niece who yesterday said to me that the “outrage” which the Thornberry tweet caused among right-wingers was because they projected their own prejudices on the story.

Thornberry posted the picture accompanied with just 3 words “image from Rochester”. Right-wingers were quick to denounce her as a snob because they themselves feel a sense of snobbery when they see England flags draped on a cheap house with a white van parked in the front.

Why are you providing what Ed Miliband says as evidence Z-11, because he’s leader of the Labour Party and you want to play silly point scoring party politics ? she’s a labour politician and one of his biggest supporters?

FTFY

I guess that at the end of the day you will never cease to be a hypocrite

‘Red Ken cha cha cha…’

Yep, you will never cease to be a hypocrite or to engage in silly puerile taunting.

ah, sorry, I missed the subtext
clearly after trying to land a punch earlier in the thread by accusing me of being a UKIP supporter, and watching it fall by the wayside, you’ve committed to just throwing insults around because someone dared say something nasty about the precious Labour Party that you so definitely don’t support and wouldn’t vote for (just like you get all irate and start throwing abuse at THM over denying he’s a Tory supporter 😆 )

All is well in the world once again then, carry on floundering Ernie 😉

Its really simple anyone flying any flag from their home is……..daft ! but because its a council house doesn’t necessarily make it a racist act.

Are council house dwellers somehow worthy of contempt?

Nope, but when they fly the flag, it only means one thing IME. I asked you if you knew different, and it was a serious question because I could have got it all wrong, but you haven’t responded. When I actually lived in Oldham (1967 – 1991) there were no flags outside anybody’s house.

….you’ve committed to just throwing insults around because someone dared say something nasty about the precious Labour Party that you so definitely don’t support and wouldn’t vote for (just like you get all irate and start throwing abuse at THM over denying he’s a Tory supporter

I am both highly critical of the Labour Party and, unlike you and THM, perfectly honest with how I vote.

I don’t pretend to be anything I’m not. And I expect people who are quick to wade into political debates to show simular honesty.

Thanks for your earlier link reminding everyone about this btw

http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/if-there-was-a-general-election-tomorrow-which-party-would-you-vote-for/page/3#post-3198913

I’ve voted UDF/Modem in the first round of every national election I’ve voted in and then RPR/UMP or Les Verts in the second round. In the European elections I’ve voted Modem or Les Verts.

Tom_W1987 – Member
You mean like Muslims are allowed to be exempt from sweeping generalisations as well Digga? Something that you and a few others on here are rather good at doing.

Find a quote to substantiate exactly[/b] that or modify the comment (quoted in full for posterity).

Tom_W1987 – Member
That’s the thing with the right though, it’s okay to generalise brown people but my god if you generalise a poor ickle working class white man it’s all “down with the liberal elite”!

The thing with some (no crass generalisations here) the left is, it’s all do as we say, not as we do. Saying you are liberal is not the same as actually being liberal – pro democracy and freedom.