I also agree with Dazh… and disagree with those saying that politicians should just do/say whatever they think the electorate want. They should stand up for what they believe in, and try and lead public sentiment… not leave it to the media to make all the running when it comes to setting public policy and attitudes.

This sums it up …

The BBC’s Nick Robinson describes Labour as like a by-stander watching David Cameron drive towards a wall at 100 mph, only to leap in front of the car at the last minute.

@ben, that was my point. If you see a Saltire you associate that with a nationalistic Scot. A nationalist Englishman with the flag of St George is a racist !

Yes, and it’s sad that that’s the case, but I don’t know how you can solve it. But I meant Scots with Union flags – there’s too many Orange Order and other associations.

the naturally left leaning multicultural educated metropolitan masses

Since when have these types who I assume are also the middle classes become the Masses ?

Since when have white working classes become racist reactionaries ?

Kelvin – Did you see Ken Clarke on QT last night? His performance showed exactly what political pygmies we’ve got nowadays.

He has principles that are completely out of kilter with the party he represents. He’s fanatically pro-EU, and absolutely refuses to take on UKIP. Instead he states the bleeding obvious. That pulling out of Europe would be financial suicide, and the Tory Party is on a hiding to nothing trying to out-UKIP UKIP. As is labour. Which is even less believable on the subject.

I hate to praise a tory for standing up and having the courage of his convictions, but by the standards of the present party, he isn’t really a Tory. Which shows in the way he’s been sidelined for having the audacity to actually talk some sense! Which pretty much no-one else is doing!

Yup – some of Ken Clarke’s views are pretty odious (well, he’s still a Tory) but on Europe he is spot on.

I actually have a bit of sympathy for Thornberry on this, and it’s not often I’ll defend a labour politician. Since when has the racist reactionary white working class been the labour party base?

I don’t. For a start, regardless of what we may think of the flag (or white vans) it’s not acceptable to assume that someone is racist or reactionary based on their house or trade. That kind of prejudice is what underpins racism itself and plenty of other nasty ‘isms’, and politicians should not be indulging in it.

Second, if she genuinely didn’t understand the potential to cause offence by tweeting a picture like that in such a loaded, leaning kind of a way she has no business as a front bench politician and clearly needs to get out more. It’s a bit trite to bang on about the out-of-touch labour metropolitan elite but it would probably be apposite here.

Anyway, the traditional Labour party base is the working class as a whole. Not ‘some of the working class’; or ‘the nice bits of the working class’, but workers in general. At the beginning of the movement, half the working class were strongly against women coming in and ‘taking our jobs’ and getting all uppity with their unreasonable demands for the vote and fair wages. It was never plain sailing. There has always been a large section of the working class that is not liberal and progressive but that Labour represented anyway because it was about universal rights and conditions for all.

Thornberry’s tweet simply demonstrates how far Labour has drifted from those original moorings –

Which leads me to my main criticism of the labour party in that it is now simply a vehicle for career politicians to achieve power, rather than a campaigning organisation fighting the corner of normal working (and non-working) people.

you’re spot on with that.

ninfan – Member

Of course the great lie is revealed above, the real crime of Thornberry and the Labour Party is that they are trying to ride two ponies in the same race.

In her video she’s spouting exactly the Labour Party line, the ‘it’s not racist to be concerned about immigration’ ‘tough and fair about immigration’ ‘Labour will make immigrants wait two years for benefits’ and ‘we admit we got it wrong on immigration’

While at the same time looking down their noses in disgust and mocking exactly the people they have written those policies to appeal to.

It is perfectly possible to be opposed to the EU’s open door policy without being racist. If you can’t understand that Z-11 then it’s at least one thing that you share with Gordon Brown.

I am opposed to the EU’s open borders, I am in fact opposed to EU membership, and I look down in disgust and mock racists. It’s not two ponies in the same race.

UKIP is a right-wing racist party and it appeals to racists, as well as deeply confused non-racists. You can be both opposed to UKIP and opposed to the EU.

He is only partly correct on Europe ie the importance of being a member. But like many others he is wrong to support the folly of a fixed exchange rate in non-optimum currency area. So well intended perhaps, but mis-guided.

I had the pleasure of attending a conference with him and other MPs not so long ago. He is a masterful after dinner speaker. I asked him about why they struggle to engage with UKIP – it’s a deliberate policy of not taking on nutters directly (Farage, Salmond etc) that comes from the US-inspired (sic) strategists that haunt Westminster. Folly IMO. UKIP and Ys are far more savvy despite the nonsense that they both spout on most issues. The last two by-elections have shown this very clearly – when will the main parties wake up?

He does love that tie though – wore it at the conference, on QT last night and even on his wiki page!

Simple – if you’re Scottish wave a Saltire, if you’re English wave a Union Flag. Problem solved.

Indeed THM. I also agree with you that the Euro is madness. But labour was never going to take us into that.

But what the labour party should be doing at the present is pointing out the utter and complete lunacy it would be to withdraw from the EU. All those UKIPers and rabid right wing Tories who want us out, have separated themselves from reality. It would be absolute economic armageddon. The labour party should be shouting this from the rooftops (with the support of the few remaining non-insane members of the Tory party like Ken Clarke.

But as Miliband is so utterly spineless, he’s hoping that if he just doesn’t mention it, then it’ll just go away. It won’t

And what we face now, with Cameron painting himself into a corner trying to take on UKIP, is the Tory party possibly taking us out of Europe by accident. I don’t think Dave actually wants to withdraw from the EU any more than Ken Clarke does. He’s bright enough to know what the reality of that would look like. And the legacy that he worries so much about would be ‘PM who got the UK to commit economic suicide for the sake of appeasing some right wing nut jobs!’

It would be absolute economic armageddon.

🙂

It was a joke. It backfired. Politicians can’t do jokes, it’s not allowed.

If Scotland had gone independent **** the Scots in anyway possible would be a vote winner.
The Uk leaving Europe would result in a similar strategy towards us.

Regardless of what we may think of the flag (or white vans) it’s not acceptable to assume that someone is racist or reactionary based on their house or trade.

Such as when the white English guy and his Indian wife moved into my parent’s street, the family with the flag pole and both st Georges cross and ukip flags flying (I kid you not) welcomed them with open arms.

Oh, wait a minute. Did I say with open arms ? I meant to say “you’re the first brown person in this street. Your sort aren’t welcome here “

England isn’t the USA. If you fly a flag every day you aren’t simply a patriot showing your love for your country.

You’ve got to love the Mash 😆

Excellent !

😆

I think what did for her was not the ambiguity of the original tweet but the fact she ran off to the Guardian and complained about prejudice against Islington dwellers when confronted.

EDIT: I find it rather sad that Cross of St George is associated by so many on here with the far right when the organisation that probably flys it most is the Church of England.

EDIT 2: Orwell is very good on the distinction between Nationalism and Patriotism, viz:

Nationalism is not to be confused with patriotism. Both words are normally used in so vague a way that any definition is liable to be challenged, but one must draw a distinction between them, since two different and even opposing ideas are involved. By ‘patriotism’ I mean devotion to a particular place and a particular way of life, which one believes to be the best in the world but has no wish to force on other people. Patriotism is of its nature defensive, both militarily and culturally. Nationalism, on the other hand, is inseparable from the desire for power. The abiding purpose of every nationalist is to secure more power and more prestige, not for himself but for the nation or other unit in which he has chosen to sink his own individuality.

Simple – if you’re Scottish wave a Saltire, if you’re English wave a Union Flag. Problem solved.

aracer neatly summarises why so many pro-Britain Scots are deeply suspicious of certain English tendancies…

Add a wink, go on you know you want to…

@ernie UKIP is the only party openly campaigning for an EU exit, that’s worth a lot of votes right now. If exiting the EU is a priority for you they are the only party which is actually campaigning for your vote.

For general thread comments on QT above. As for pulling out of Europe being financial suicide, do you really think that the Germans (and French) won’t want to sell us cars and the French and Irish won’t want to sell us Agricultural products. For that they will trade us access to their markets and the city to financial services. Back in the day (1990’s ?) we used to have a 10% tax on new cars, I can’t see the core EU members wanting to see an independent UK re-introducing that so they will enter into trade agreements with us. The Japanese car companies aren’t going to be closing their factories. If we need immigrants labour or skills we will take them in, after they have filled out an application form. On the positive side we will at a pen stroke gain many billions in tax form Amazon, Starbucks, Apple, Google, eBay, Facebook etc who use Luxembourg and Irish subsidiaries combined with EU tax treaties to pay no UK tax on their huge UK derived profits.

At times, the Mash just nail it.

As for EU, ‘we’ – British people and politicians – always seem to talk about it as outsiders. Closer inspection of what is going on there would reveal not only severe austerity and nations that were not in post-crunch recession (e.g. France) now tipping into it, but also a very real backlash against the EU and in many cases far more right-wing than anything in the UK.

Both France and Italy are at loggerheads with German monetary policy and also at EU austerity. Italy have now stated they will publish all (‘secret’) communication from the EU, and are also threatening to blow the lid off just how much money is wasted in the Strasbourg-Brussels merry-go-gray-train.

French and the EU. They are lording it up about the fact their dire economic performance will result in an extra billion euros from the EU

MP’s shouldn’t be allowed twitter or FB accounts, for the good of their own careers…

Having an account should be mandatory, for pretty much exactly that reason. Better to have visibility of what they really think, no?

I think its a great shame that our countries flag is being associated the lazy racism (and football)

I can’t stand football, and people wave the flag about when we are losing at some world cup or another.

Yet often the same people don’t display the flag on St Georges day, (which should be a national holiday)

I find it strange that in ENGLAND people make a bigger deal of St Patricks Day then they do St Georges day.

Having lived in the USA for 3 years, they have huge national pride, its a shame we seem only to have it when associated with football, and at all other times its often regarded as racist !

Junkyard – lazarus
Its pre judging based on limited information. FWIW you need to persuade me the flag is generally not seen/has not been mainly used by racists.

As i said I hope it gets reclaimed but it has not yet.

See also swastika.

What a load of absolute bollox. What makes you think anyone owes you an explanation for anything, let alone your own skewed views on patriotism?!

As for the swastika, that was the symbol of the political party of one Adolf Hitler. Maybe you need to explain why you’re grouping people who display a nation’s flag through pride with the one and only nazi party…

Never heard such a stupid analogy in all my life and if you’re not a politician, you’re wasted.

On the positive side we will at a pen stroke gain many billions in tax form Amazon, Starbucks, Apple, Google, eBay, Facebook etc who use Luxembourg and Irish subsidiaries combined with EU tax treaties to pay no UK tax on their huge UK derived profits.

Not true, they would still be able to benefit from the Double Tax Treaties that are negotiated separately to the EU rules and would continue in force.

Given it’s been explained that in Scotland waving a Saltire is a perfectly acceptable patriotic thing to do, whilst waving a Union Flag has unpleasant connotations, and in England waving a Union Flag is a perfectly acceptable patriotic thing to do, whilst waving a George’s Cross has unpleasant connotations, I don’t know why I’d want to do that. It’s hardly hijacking the Union Flag for England to suggest that. I suppose I could have used one of these 😐

aracer – I’m probably just too old and too jaded. I accept your point. You were absolutely correct in the flag hijack comment of what had shot into my mind.

Having lived in the USA for 3 years, they have huge national pride, its a shame we seem only to have it when associated with football, and at all other times its often regarded as racist !

Having lived in the USA for three years, you may possibly have an insight into the cultural and historical differences between there and the UK.
It might be the sheer size of the place, the fact that it’s 50 states federated under that one flag. Or even because they rebelled, seceded and created their own nation. In brief their flag represents their freedom from an oppressive imperial power, whereas ours, the cross of St George was and, it could be argued rests the symbol of that very oppressive imperial power.

As for the swastika, that was the symbol of the political party of one Adolf Hitler. Maybe you need to explain why you’re grouping people who display a nation’s flag through pride with the one and only nazi party…

Because it’s a good example of a symbol’s meaning changing over time, presumably. The angled cross has been used by many, many cultures for a very long time, almost always with a positive meaning, before old Adolf got hold of it.

cozz – Member

I think its a great shame that our countries flag is being associated the lazy racism (and football)

I can’t stand football, and people wave the flag about when we are losing at some world cup or another.

Yet often the same people don’t display the flag on St Georges day, (which should be a national holiday)

I find it strange that in ENGLAND people make a bigger deal of St Patricks Day then they do St Georges day.

Having lived in the USA for 3 years, they have huge national pride, its a shame we seem only to have it when associated with football, and at all other times its often regarded as racist !

Consider that your countries’ flag was the backdrop for genocidal slaughter and atrocities all over the world in the name of imperialism and you might understand why other nationalities, and people of different ethnic backgrounds living in the uk dislike it, or at least see negative connotations.

Not true, they would still be able to benefit from the Double Tax Treaties that are negotiated separately to the EU rules and would continue in force.

But if we were not in the EU we can re-negotiate/withdraw from those at will.

@jimjam and Spain, France and Holland ?

She must be OK, she rides a bike

linky

Milliband makes some more comments, Labour are dodging the question as to what they thought she was trying to say though.

I would be deeply angry is someone came down my road and took a picture of my house and put it on the internet, as would most of the people watching this programme. That is not an acceptable behaviour for a member of parliament …

She put on the internet a picture of somebody’s house which left question marks over why she had done that, what she was trying to say. That was deeply insulting. She apologised and she’s resigned.

What a load of absolute bollox. What makes you think anyone owes you an explanation for anything, let alone your own skewed views on patriotism?!

I said what I think when I see the flag. Plenty agree with me so you need to persuade us it does not belong to racists.

As for the swastika, that was the symbol of the political party of one Adolf Hitler. Maybe you need to explain why you’re grouping people who display a nation’s flag through pride with the one and only nazi party…

What i did was explain how symbols meaning can change due to ownership being taken over. Only an idiot would thing i have said that.

Never heard such a stupid analogy in all my life

Right so you got it that it was an analogy and you still said that above…..face palm. shakes head

As i keep saying it is shame this has happened and the english need to reclaim the flag . Unfortunately its associated with the EDL, the NF, football hooligans, skinheads etc,

Another example would be the word ****.It is just an abbreviation like Scot but you cannot use that either as its meaning has become more than just an abbreviation and folk may well think you are a racist if you use it.

Cougar the Buddhist one has the legs going the other way to the Nazi one but i dont think I would risk displaying it

I remember posting (naively, before I fully comprehended the bickering on this site) an observation about the rainbow flag and how it’s meaning has changed over the years..

Not so. In Buddhism and all other uses the arms can go either way – I think it’s only the Nazis who standardised on a direction (and subsequent revisionism which suggested using only ones with arms going the other way to avoid association). See my picture above which has them going both ways – though curiously only one in the “nazi” direction, I wonder if that was a mistake or a later revision (plenty of other pictures with them going either way).

I said what I think when I see the flag. Plenty agree with me so you need to persuade us it does not belong to racists.

I’m with you on this Junkyard. I don’t think he’s been to somewhere like Oldham. Lots of ‘patriots’ there hanging out their George Crosses in a friendly sort of “welcome to Oldham” way.

jambalaya – Member

@ernie UKIP is the only party openly campaigning for an EU exit, that’s worth a lot of votes right now. If exiting the EU is a priority for you they are the only party which is actually campaigning for your vote.

Thanks for the tip but my vote doesn’t go to fruitcakes, loonies and closet racists. I would vote Tory before voting UKIP.

I find it rather sad that Cross of St George is associated by so many on here with the far right when the organisation that probably flys it most is the Church of England.

It’s just how it is in some places. I don’t see a George Cross flying from a church steeple and think “racists”, but I do when I see one hanging outside a council house window in Oldham. It’s almost a given I’m afraid.

Good to see the bloke who’s house it was and the Sun showing their respect for the George Cross;

[they’re outside Thornberry’s house, btw. She needs to get her knocker sorted]