Diesel Laguna – The diagnosis…

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  • Diesel Laguna – The diagnosis…
  • johnhoo
    Member

    old shape BMW 3-series ‘touring’.
    04 plate 320d should be available for about £5-6k if you don’t mind high mileage. They go on forever.

    carbon337
    Member

    My mate had 3 go, spoke to someone in renault garage parts dept who reckoned he had 3 go and could now fit in half hour. I had the Megane with same engine and mine went at about 65/70k, got turbo for about 400 and fitting at 400 at backstreet place i know.

    Its a garret turbo and they are renowned for it. Make sure the intercooler is emptied and cleaned otherwise it will blow again. Shocking cars, will never ever buy another Renault.

    Premier Icon dawson
    Subscriber

    its the high mileage thing that i was trying to avoid – is it not so bad on german cars?

    i think a 3-series estate would be a bit on the small side

    Premier Icon dawson
    Subscriber

    carbon – i agree – i’m going to steer clear of French cars completely

    johnhoo
    Member

    small for what?

    Isn’t a 3 series Touring going to be about the same size as a Focus?

    VWs seem to eat miles, my Passat’s done 122k and (touch wood) is still going strong

    johnhoo
    Member

    is it not so bad on german cars?

    Merc diesels in particular go on forever. Think “Beirut Taxi”

    My BMW 320d estate will take a 7piece drum kit, with a very big bag of stands, cymbals etc in the back, and still have room for 1 rear seat passenger and one front seat passenger. I think it’s bigger than a focus, but obviously not as big as a Mondeo. I don’t think anything smaller than a huuuuuge Volvo is 😉

    It’s an 04 model with just under 100k on the clock. If you keep them serviced they do go on forever.

    I was thinking of getting a 5series Touring for my next car, but I may struggle to get it on the drive…

    dr_adams
    Member

    My parents owned two lagunas… Both had their gearboxes go at 120-130K, first time we got rid, second time we went and had it rebuilt, the gearbox place said they were known for gearbox issues and lagunas from 95-05 should be avoided for many reasons as reliability is bad…
    So we had it repaired and then something else engine wise went after a year…
    They just brought a Passat Diesel, when we were looking wasn’t uncommon to see them with over 180k on… so i think they take the mileage much much better..

    samuri
    Member

    I reckon any of the standard german cars are going to go forever. The VAG 1.9 and 2.0 Tdi engines are bombproof. Passat, Golf, A3, A4, Skoda, Octavia. Can’t go wrong with any of them, just depends how much you want to spend.

    Premier Icon dawson
    Subscriber

    the turbo is knackered… I have been quoted about a grand for a new one including fitting (and cleaning the crap out of the pipes that will have been squirted/sucked through)

    its a 52 plate 77K miles – i think its only worth £1300/£1500 – don’t know what i’d get part-ex in its current state..

    I don’t think its worth fixing. Last year the passenger side front spring broke, and about a month ago the drivers side spring broke – I’ve had enough of the french P.O.S.

    sooooo options…. I’m looking at Passat diesel estate – expensive, but good?
    toyota avensis diesel estate – not convinced, or a recent focus diesel estate (prefer the look of this to the last-gen mondeo estate, new mondeo estate out of my price league)

    thoughts?

    incognito
    Member

    I have a 52 laguna diesel, it is without doubt the worst car I have ever owned. I have never had so much trouble with a car.

    my dad had a passat, he’s just sold it with 270k on the clock to a Polish chap for £2200. He picked them up from stanstead airport and they drove it home. they were taking it back to switch it to left hand drive to sell on. bizarre! 😀

    incognito
    Member

    btw my dad preferred his toyota avensis to the passat. he sold that with similar mileage. I drove it just before he sold it and it still felt like a new car. he’s got a new avensis now.

    Oxboy
    Member

    Why do you need a diesel? do you do high milage? I had a passat estate, petrol model 1.8Turbo, 150 bhp! wasnt too bad on the juice either if you didnt want to spin the turbo. I only sold it because i needed more seats!
    Should be a bit cheaper to buy than a diesel too. Less servicing too I think, oh and cheaper fuel.

    PeterPoddy
    Member

    i’m going to steer clear of French cars completely

    That’s wise. They are generally rubbish. Mate of mine was head mechanic at a ‘French’ garage (I forget which) and the stories he told about what went wrong and the average warranty cost of each vehicle to them were eye-opening to say the least.
    I’ve always been a bit jittery about turbo’d engines myself. We had a diesel Vectra which by all accounts have very solid engines, and I looked after it meticulosly (SP?) but at 100k it had to go.
    It’s soooooooooo nice to go back to a petrol engine again as well – Better throttle response, more flexible (it pulls better lower down, then revs higher) quieter, the weight doesn’t ruin the handling…..
    I did the maths and you really have to be doing 20k miles a year for 3 years to make a diesel pay, but to be honest I don’t care if that’s wrong, I’d rather pay a bit more for something nicer to drive.
    🙂

    StuF
    Member

    Go with the last gen mondeo. its by far the best car for the money. I’m on my second one now (just got it cos the turbo went my ageing rover 220)

    Premier Icon matt_outandabout
    Subscriber

    Sensible option : Mondeo or Focus TDCi
    More expensive option (and not necessarily any better): Passat / A6 / BMW / Merc

    Premier Icon molgrips
    Subscriber

    Better throttle response,

    Eh?

    more flexible (it pulls better lower down

    Petrol better low end torque than diesel? What planet are you on? And I’ve driven diesels that were quieter than the equivalent petrol too – due to only doing 2krpm on the motorway.

    I think diesels are far nicer to drive, so it ain’t black and white anyway Poddy. Maybe the OP likes diesls too 🙂

    As for BMW/Merc, aren’t the servicing costs way high? But +1 for the VAG cars – Passats are more expensive up front but there are loads around, surely a previous model one would be cheap and still reliable?

    owenfackrell
    Member

    juat as a bit of info on the fords. the 1.6, 2.0 and 2.2 tdci engine is a rebadged PSA one along with the 2.7 as used in land rovers, Jags etc..
    The 1.8 tdci is based on an old engine as used in the escorts etc
    like i said on the other thread the renault 1.9 dci engine from a certain age range (01-03) seems to suffer turbo failers. The vag engines are also not with out there problems nor are those from Ford/PSA as they have problems with the dual mass flywheel.
    You tend to here of more people with problems of a car than those with out.
    When you look for a new car don’t just assume that a low millage will mean that it will be fine. An ex company car will be very well looked after mechanically and tend to make good second hand buys as people are still fixated on millage rather than how the car has been looked after/driven.

    Premier Icon matt_outandabout
    Subscriber

    When you look for a new car don’t just assume that a low millage will mean that it will be fine. An ex company car will be very well looked after mechanically and tend to make good second hand buys as people are still fixated on millage rather than how the car has been looked after/driven.

    Seconded.

    Premier Icon molgrips
    Subscriber

    An ex company car will be very well looked after mechanically

    Plus rep cars do lots of long trip motorway miles which as we all know is easier on the engine 🙂

    soops
    Member

    My local garage warned me away from french cars. They said have a look on the ramps of garages when driving around and you will see french cars on them. They were not wrong!

    owenfackrell
    Member

    It is intresting that people go have German/Jap and avoid french but no one ever mentions Italian ones (seat/Skoda are Just re worked VW’s these days).
    I do find French cars more comfortable to sit in than German ones where as with the Japanise ones it seems to change from car to car.

    PeterPoddy
    Member

    When you look for a new car don’t just assume that a low millage will mean that it will be fine. An ex company car will be very well looked after mechanically and tend to make good second hand buys as people are still fixated on millage rather than how the car has been looked after/driven.

    Thirded.

    Story time – We went to Wilsons, a big car supermarket in Epsom, to look at 3 Focus Ghia estates, all with under 30k on them, one with 14k. I have never, ever in all my life seen such a selection of cars in such shocking condition. Fag burns, dents, scratches kerbed wheels, dirty. (A quick look at other cars confirmed that a lot of their stuff was the same)
    “What do you think?” the salesman said.
    “It’s f**ked” replies my missus!
    One had loads of deep gouges on the top of the bumper – “Maybe they had a dog?”
    “What? A warewolf?” was my reply?
    I literally laughed at the salesman and pointed out thet my 8 year old, 101k Vectra was in better nick.

    We walked away and went and bought a lower spec Zetec from a local garage on the way home, for the same price or a bit less, with 16k, FSH, because it was virtually as new….

    robdob
    Member

    I have to agree that petrol is still a better fuel for an engine if you want a drivers car, rather than just saving money. A lazy driver will always prefer a turbo diesel but petrol is cheaper to buy and maintain, and unless you are doing 20k+ miles a year it’s cheaper. I should get a company car with my new job and I will do anything to avoid having to get a diesel coughbox.

    And don’t start with the “diesel wins LeMans” chestnut, that’s irrelevant.

    I get 45mpg from my 1.6vvti Corolla on long journeys, but I still just thrashed a tdi vauxhall away from a roundabout just now. He he he!

    owenfackrell
    Member

    but petrol is cheaper to buy and maintain

    It cost me less to service my current diesel than it did my old petrol. For starters it goes upto 18k between services and there is less to do on a service than with a petrol so would be intrested where this it cost more comes form.

    ron jeremy
    Member

    Interesting point, my V70, (1998) has got a Merc Diesel engine in, and as a mechanic pointed out to me when i had the cam belts changed (yes there is two one either side of the engine) ‘bloody hell mate, this thing is barely run in and will just keep going forever’ so a vote for a Merc Deisel engine here, oh and i love my V70, can take lots of kit in comfort and speed (2.5TDi)

    coffeeking
    Member

    My local garage warned me away from french cars. They said have a look on the ramps of garages when driving around and you will see french cars on them. They were not wrong!

    Not really a fair thing to say – they tend to be cheaper and less well put together, but you pay less for them. In all honesty, despite the odd annoying faults (speaker wiring failing, crank pulley rattling) my pug was cheap enough to buy (by £Ks over similar size/power cars) churns out 60mpg on a motorway run while swallowing 3 bikes, a 32″ widescreen CRT TV, two kiteboards, 3 kites and all of my clothes (moving house), and in the 12 months I’ve owned it it has cost me £50 in repairs and £100 in service/consumables, an that’s mainly because I wanted to replace the front discs and pads as they were coming up due this time. Can’t complain about £150 in 20K’s worth of driving? Before that I had a peugeot 205, it was almost flawless despite being thrashed to death for 5 years. My other car is an older japanese car, it’s had £ks spent on repairs and servicing, but it is heavily modified and requires a fully synth oil change every 3K miles so hardly surprising.
    I know plenty of people who have BMWs and VWs who claim they’re so reliable and never go wrong and quite frankly they rarely do go wrong, but boy do you pay for it if they do. It’s in the nature of the beast – if you buy an expensive car you can expect it to last longer, but it will cost more if it does go wrong. Family member – BMW 330d, lovely car, but faulty injector…£400 please. Faulty door regulator – £70 from a motor factors and self fitted. Needed a full round of suspension bushes front and rear at 90K miles… not looking so good now.

    but petrol is cheaper to buy and maintain

    Not so sure that’s right. Cost my missus far more to buy and maintain her 1.6 petrol Renault than it has for my 2ltr TD. And to compare apples and oranges, costs me a damn sight more in fuel and to maintain my 2litre turbo petrol over my TD – regardless of price difference, the petrol never gets >25mpg lol.

    Premier Icon matt_outandabout
    Subscriber

    has got a Merc Diesel engine in

    Aye, my old business partner had an old old E-class estate, v6, with 325,000 miles on the clock….and sold it for £900!

    Premier Icon dawson
    Subscriber

    thanks for the input folks.

    at the moment i’m looking at a newish Focus estate or an Avensis estate, I would love a Passat estate, but I don’t think I can justify the jump in price.

    Petrol versus diesel? This Laguna was the first diesel that i’d had – i must say i’m converted – i don’t do mega mileage, but it really comes into its own on motorway runs

    PeterPoddy
    Member

    Better throttle response,

    Eh?

    Let me explain 🙂 – When you put your foot down in a diesel, especially at lower revs when I NEED power NOW, (But all the way through the range really) Not much happens.
    There’s a pause whilst those big heavy chunks of metal swing slowly round against that huge compression ratio to get up to speed, and whilst the turbo takes effect. It feels lazy. There’s lag.
    When it gets going it buggers off down the road on a wave of tourqe, yes, but the petrol revs fast and free. You ask for power, you get it what it has to give straight away, there’s no waiting. This is really handy for balancing the car on the throttle when sliding round roundabouts…… (I like a bit of lift-off oversteer, personally, like a Mk2 Golf GTi)

    more flexible (it pulls better lower down

    Petrol better low end torque than diesel? What planet are you on?

    At what point did I say ‘better torque’? I didn’t did I? 🙂
    Now, I’ve driven pretty much every diesel in the book, for literally hundreds of thousands of miles. Old ones, new modern ones, big ones, small ones French, German, British, the lot. And, until that turbo kicks in, you’ve got fek all torque and that’s a fact. Gutless, underpowered, heavy, shite. For instance (And this surprised me a LOT, I’ll admit that) we’ve just gone from a 2 litre diesel to a 1.6 petrol. The diesel had huge torque, the petol doesn’t. But, if I stuck the diesel in 5th and let it trickle along, the lowest it would go was 40mph, and if you tried to accelerate away from that, well, it just didn’t: It juddered a bit and you had to change down. The new petrol car will pull from 25mph in 5th, smoothly and with useable acceleration. I don’t always drive like that, but it’s nice to know you can, and it perfectly illustrates what I mean. 🙂
    It’s not necessarily faster or more powerful, but the useable rev range/powerband is wider. Like I said, that surprised even me. 🙂

    I think diesels are far nicer to drive, so it ain’t black and white anyway Poddy. Maybe the OP likes diesls too

    Very true. 🙂
    I’ve driven some very nice oil burners. Indeed right outside I have parked a (Borrowed) VW Eos, with a 140bhp diesel under the lid. And yes, it goes like the clappers, lots faster than our Focus, for sure. But speed isn’t the be-all-and-end-all of driving, IMO.
    Said Eos still has that same dull throttle response, the lag, the small powerband, the lack of involvement.
    It’s like a request for power has to be submitted in triplicate to a comittee which will then decide when they will let you have it, and as soon as they give it to you, they decide you can’t have it any more and snatch it away just as it gets going.
    Diesel engines have their place (As boat anchors 😉 ) yes, but I’ve not yet driven one I’d prefer over any petrol engine.
    That’s my choice, and it’s nothing to do with measured speed or quoted power/torque and I’m not talking crap about someting I’ve never tried. I just prefer petrol engines for all those reasons – Throttle response, weight, noise
    (If a petrol is louder, at least it’s nice to listen to!)
    🙂

    “It cost me less to service my current diesel than it did my old petrol. For starters it goes upto 18k between services and there is less to do on a service than with a petrol so would be intrested where this it cost more comes form.”

    Maybe your old petrol was just an older car?
    All things being equal, a petrol engine is simpler than a diesel and has fewer parts. Sure petrol has spark plugs, but diesel has glow plugs, plus a turbo and all the related bits. In addition, its built heavier, so either suspension and brakes are beefed up, or they wear out more quickly. On top of all that, a diesel takes up more space in the engine bay, leaving less room to work on it, and when it goes wrong it costs a fortune.

    i own a VW diesel by the way. wish i’d bought petrol.

    samuri
    Member

    When you put your foot down in a diesel, especially at lower revs when I NEED power NOW, (But all the way through the range really) Not much happens.
    There’s a pause whilst those big heavy chunks of metal swing slowly round against that huge compression ratio to get up to speed, and whilst the turbo takes effect. It feels lazy. There’s lag.

    try a decent, modern diesel. All the ones I’ve driven recently don’t do that any more. I’ve not driven a new BMW recently but I’m assured they’re even better on account of a little diddy turbo to get things moving then the big one to provide the proper power. Or something like that.

    PeterPoddy
    Member

    try a decent, modern diesel

    Please read my post fully:
    😀

    right outside I have parked a (Borrowed) VW Eos, with a 140bhp diesel under the lid

    I’ve driven pretty much every diesel in the book, for literally hundreds of thousands of miles. Old ones, new modern ones

    But no, I’ve not driven a new BMW, and I did say “I’ve not YET driven one better then a petrol”
    I’m open minded, I live in hope!
    🙂

    EDIT – Anyone wanna lend me a BMW for a few days? 😉

    coffeeking
    Member

    Like for like (engine size for engine size) I find TDs accelerate far better in-gear than petrols, even at low revs. If you’re expecting a car to accelerate hard from 1200rpm in 5th you’d not using the car as it was designed. With a turbocharged car (petrol or D) if you want to accelerate you need to be above the point that the turbo spools. It’s just driving technique and not being lazy about gear changes.

    owenfackrell
    Member

    The diesel had huge torque, the petol doesn’t. But, if I stuck the diesel in 5th and let it trickle along, the lowest it would go was 40mph, and if you tried to accelerate away from that, well, it just didn’t: It juddered a bit and you had to change down. The new petrol car will pull from 25mph in 5th, smoothly and with useable acceleration. I don’t always drive like that, but it’s nice to know you can, and it perfectly illustrates what I mean.

    I can put my diesel in to 5th at 40mph and it will pull happily in fact i often drive it in 6th at 40 as will still accelerate just not as fast but does it with no fuss.

    All things being equal, a petrol engine is simpler than a diesel and has fewer parts. Sure petrol has spark plugs, but diesel has glow plugs, plus a turbo and all the related bits. In addition, its built heavier, so either suspension and brakes are beefed up, or they wear out more quickly. On top of all that, a diesel takes up more space in the engine bay, leaving less room to work on it, and when it goes wrong it costs a fortune

    Sorry you are wrong here a diesel is simpler engine. You have more to service on a petrol than a diesel the turbo etc’er are not service items any more than the air con pump is and as for the brakes being beffer etc the pads don’t cost lots more if at all and do lst a long time.
    a diesel engine doesn’t take up any more space than a same sized petrol engine as the turbo isn’t what you would call huge and the moden engine covers they put on make all engine bays seem full up. If you want a lack of room look in any engine bay that has a front wheel drive v6 in.

    coffeeking
    Member

    TBH a modern D is slightly more complex than a current petrol – the high pressure pump is about the only place I can think of added complexity though. As above, D’s are no bigger, no harder to work on, SLIGHTLY heavier (brakes are upscaled slightly, costing about £5 more to replace) and it should have plenty of torque unless your loading the engine at very low revs. Mine happily pulls away in 5th at 40, better than my 2L turbo petrol at that speed/gear, but the point is that I’d never drive that petrol in that gear/speed combination as it would be “lugging” it. Likewise I’d never drive a TD at 1200 and expect it to accelerate quickly. You’re comparing apples and oranges PP, a TD engine has lower compression than a normal D due to having to take into account the boosting that comes with the turbo, a NA petrol is relatively high compression, giving better torque low down. If you were to be fair you’d compare a NA D and an NA petrol, or a TD and TP. A TP with a compression ratio of 8.5:1 will respond very badly (worse than a TD IME) when off-boost.

    Premier Icon molgrips
    Subscriber

    Poddy, when you said ‘pulls better lower down’ I assumed you meant better low end torque. Since ‘pulling’ really means ‘torque’. As for the turbo lag, well that varies from car to car. In mine, IF you let the revs bog down below about 1.3k then there was lag for about a second. It took me a day to realise that. I found that whatever gear you were in at almost any speed (including 5th at 30mph) you could ease down on the throttle and power away. This contrasted heavily with my Dad’s car of a similar power, which when you eased down on the throttle did nothing at all, it required changing down two gears to get it to go anywhere. So I’d say in my experience the diesel had much better throttle response (due to much greater versatility and practically non-existent turbo lag) but yes, it didn’t rev as high.

    So if you like to make the engine rev highly then petrol’s great, but I’d rather not bother with gear changes and I love that smooth shove in the back without any fuss.

    But anyway, we’ve had this discussion before, and I have to say I’ve not driven any petrol car (besides sports cars) that I prefer over diesel, and that’s just down to personal preference 🙂 Just don’t spout rubbish about lag and throttle response – the lag is only a factor if you drive like a complete tool..!

    hora
    Member

    Dont scrap it, list on autotrader with a full description- list for £500 and include the garage report. Also offer it to the garage you took it to?

    Premier Icon glenh
    Subscriber

    I have to agree with PP that the usable rev range on a petrol is much better.
    However, things are improving all the time. My new ford TDCI is *much* better than the previous generation one I had previously. Better low end pull (despite being smaller), better top end power, much better throttle response from idle (ie. junctions etc), and quieter than many petrols I’ve driven.
    Of course it has some disadvantages compared to petrol (mainly the rev range in my opinion), but 55mpg rather than 35-40 for the same power more than makes up for it for me at least.

    hora
    Member

    Actually, this thread has prompted something. My old TDI sometimes used to ‘hesitate’ or staggered-sigh when flooring it in say third mid-gear (it sounded like it was coming from the turbo). Was that the turbo on its way out?

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