Viewing 37 posts - 1 through 37 (of 37 total)
  • Did this get done – Transgender CX rider told to compete in women's category
  • atlaz
    Free Member

    Over at road.cc they have this story about a cyclist who has competed in men’s categories for years now being told that she has to compete in the gender category on her driving license despite the fact that PHYSICALLY she is male (according to the story) and therefore has a bit of an advantage against women in the same age group.

    Seems like an odd choice where being a bit more sensitive is actually making things worse for people.

    honourablegeorge
    Full Member

    Not sure refusing to recognize someone’s transgender status is “Being more sensitive”.

    atlaz
    Free Member

    But they ARE recognising it, that’s the point. Read the article 🙂

    Fresh Goods Friday 696: The Middling Edition

    Fresh Goods Friday 696: The Middlin...
    Latest Singletrack Videos
    wrecker
    Free Member

    I don’t get it. Molly is a man. S/he identifies as a woman, but has had no surgery, dresses as a man and generally appears like a man.
    This is fair enough, people can do what they like, it just seems that Molly is a man wanting to be called a woman which I find a bit confusing. How on earth did Molly get a womans driving license?

    stevious
    Full Member

    This is a really tough situation to legislate for as there will always be mismatches between the gender identity of the athlete and the physical attributes that they have. It seems like the goalposts that USA cycling have set don’t really work in this case.

    allthegear
    Free Member

    hmm – I’m wearing jeans, a t-shirt and a fleece hoody. My hair is currently short, shorter than it has been in years and years, I’m not wearing make-up or jewellery other than my (large faced) watch. Maybe I should hand in my female-marked driving licence, too?

    Rachel

    wrecker
    Free Member

    You have quite spectacularly missed the point there Rachel.

    bikebouy
    Free Member

    Tricky situation.

    “Clothing doth (not) maketh the Man”, in this nor most instances.

    Hard to be pragmatic in a situation like this, what do other Athletes think?

    stilltortoise
    Free Member

    On Facebook Cameron posted: “Put away the pitchforks and torches, USA Cycling is not always right but they are trying. They are not the enemy.”

    allthegear
    Free Member

    Well, experience tells me that if she starts/continues hormone therapy, the muscle mass will drop off her in no time at all. It’s almost frightening how quick – everything becomes bloody heavy!

    So far as driving licences are concerned, I don’t know the US situation (I can check with a friend in Portland, though) but in the UK, so long as you obtain a letter from a doc saying you are under their care for gender dysphoria then the licence will be changed. You don’t need to wait for any physical treatment; indeed in the UK it would normally be months before you receive any drugs etc and years before any surgery. A passport can be changed with the same letter.

    The point I was trying to make earlier was that it’s not up to any of us to decide how Molly presents or categorises herself. If she wants to dress in “men’s clothes” (is that even a thing?) than that is completely her choice and unconnected to her ability to identify as a woman. She has been asked to compete in the Women’s race, not demanded it. I presume she felt that her current physical characteristics meant racing with the men was more appropriate.

    Rachel

    atlaz
    Free Member

    hmm – I’m wearing jeans, a t-shirt and a fleece hoody. My hair is currently short, shorter than it has been in years and years, I’m not wearing make-up or jewellery other than my (large faced) watch. Maybe I should hand in my female-marked driving licence, too?

    I don’t recall your situation but from what I understand, Molly has had neither reassignment surgery nor all the hormone treatment and has competed as a male as both a pro and an amateur. The indication is that she’s been associating as female for some time as it mentions being kicked OUT of the female class when she started racing. I guess the question is whether the driving license gender is something that should be the deciding factor or, if the road.cc commenter is correct, whether the Olympic rules governing this sort of situation are better. Molly is, to all intents and purposes, male physically so is it fair to the age group women to be competing against her? Given the #1 woman in that class wouldn’t make a top 10 placing in the men’s category, it’s a bit harsh given the rider herself hasn’t requested the change.

    allthegear
    Free Member

    A simple solution might be the same as golf – allow women to compete in men’s races, as well as their own category. What are the men afraid of, getting beat? 😉

    Rachel

    franksinatra
    Full Member

    I think it is very difficult for a sporting body to make very delicate decisions like this, so referring to a driving licence seems a sensible way of applying a simple rule, and offloading the responsibility of a decision to another authority who are perhaps better placed to immerse themselves in these difficult issues.

    Having said that, they are stuffed if the athlete doesn’t drive.

    wrecker
    Free Member

    If Molly is taking hormone therapy and making steps for gender change, then that’s a different thing all together. If not, then she’s a dude.

    franksinatra
    Full Member

    Not sure refusing to recognize someone’s transgender status is “Being more sensitive”.

    Devils Advocate mode, she has not had any gender reassignment surgery. So on that basis you could have blokes pulling on a skirt occasionally and then racing, and winning, in the female category. Seems pretty clear cut to me. Go with birth gender until such a time that they have surgery, then go with post surgery gender.

    slowjo
    Free Member

    it just seems that Molly is a man wanting to be called a woman which I find a bit confusing

    Sorry to trivialise this but it reminds me of this

    beej
    Full Member

    It’s a tricky one and it sounds like USA cycling are trying to figure a solution, with Molly wanting to continue racing with the men as that’s where the competition is – she’d clean up in the women’s category.

    I guess when they wrote the rules it was to try and do the right thing but it’s backfired slightly here.

    atlaz
    Free Member

    A simple solution might be the same as golf – allow women to compete in men’s races, as well as their own category. What are the men afraid of, getting beat? 😉

    I think it’d be fine for the average race but at the sharp end of a lot of sports, the women would be at an enormous disadvantage. To give CX as the example, at the Worlds Mathieu van der Poel did 9 laps with an average of 8m36s, and Pauline Ferrand Prevot did 5 laps averaging 9m46s per lap. No man lapping in the same range even finished the race.

    kimbers
    Full Member

    franksinatra – Member
    I think it is very difficult for a sporting body to make very delicate decisions like this, so referring to a driving licence seems a sensible way of applying a simple rule,

    seems sensible

    racing’s funny anyway, I go up an age cat next year, but my birthdays not actually till november

    D0NK
    Full Member

    racing’s funny anyway, I go up an age cat next year, but my birthdays not actually till november

    Seems sensibe to me, changing cat halfway through the year would be silly (say if you were born in june) so either have how old at start of year or how old at the end would be fine but not how old you are right now

    Changing gender category in racing before your body has gone through any physical changes seems a bit previous.

    nickc
    Full Member

    “We seek to be fair to all transgender athletes, including Molly, and will immediately look into this case to see if we can find a just solution.”

    Said USA cycling.

    mostly there are few hard and fast rules. I reckon there’s probably few enough trans. athletes around so that individual cases can be judged on their merits rather than trying to a blanket rule?

    jimdubleyou
    Full Member

    If you’re going to have male & female categories, the Olympic rules sound very sensible to me.

    aracer
    Free Member

    That’s where it’s silly – I’d assumed the men’s category was effectively an open category (as it is in some other sports – at least at an amateur level – I once won a prize for first man 😉 – I’ve raced at a high enough level to have associated with top level women and I’m not afraid of getting beat because I know some of them are better than me)

    What is the problem with that exactly? Nobody is suggesting scrapping women’s categories – if they’re not good enough to race with the men then there’s no requirement for them to do so. In this case it seems she is good enough to race with the men though, and I can’t see why the option shouldn’t be available.

    mattsccm
    Free Member

    Got to stay with birth gender. That’s what decides physical make up. You have to take into all eventualities and to say that a natural male can at some point compete as a woman because of surgery is unfair. It is quite possible that that person retains male strength etc.
    Anyway despite all the claims I have yet to hear of any surgical procedure that exactly duplicate every issue of the opposite sex. Ovary and womb transplants or the ability to make sperm. Until that comes about its all window dressing really.
    As for allowing women to compete with men, well that’s only viable in truly open competitions such as clay shooting . If women can race in mens events then men should be able to race with the women. Fairs fair.

    allthegear
    Free Member

    I agree with aracer that an Open category makes complete sense.

    The Olympic rules do have some significant issues. I we take the “two years post-op and hormones” thing then we are saying that a significant proportion of an athletes career is written off. It took me 6 years from first visit to a doctor to actually being in the position that would satisfy the authorities.

    allthegear
    Free Member

    Until that comes about its all window dressing really.

    Thanks mattsccm 😥 🙄

    Rachel

    Sam
    Full Member

    It does seem odd that she is barred from racing with men if that’s her choice. IIRC there was a case of a canadian (?) downhiller a few years back who was going through surgery/hormone therapy. Early on in the process there was some resistance from female competitors at having to compete against her, but as the hormones took effect any advantage was quickly negated. She continued to be competitive but by no means walked all over the women’s field.

    mismatches between the gender identity of the athlete and the physical attributes that they have

    True, if I were a woman I’d be pretty damn fast – as it is I’m decidedly average….

    aracer
    Free Member

    Except it’s not fair is it? Next thing you’ll be suggesting that you should be allowed to race with the juniors because they’re allowed to race in the open categories. Or maybe, closer to home for most on here, under 30s should be allowed into the veteran classes because some over 40s are good enough and choose to race in the open. Fair’s fair.

    LHS
    Free Member

    Anyway despite all the claims I have yet to hear of any surgical procedure that exactly duplicate every issue of the opposite sex. Ovary and womb transplants or the ability to make sperm. Until that comes about its all window dressing really.

    I think you need to read up a lot more on gender identity / gender dysphoria before making insensitive comments like that.

    wrecker
    Free Member

    There was a case in crossfit. Wouldn’t let a transsexual compete in the womans cat. She was actually very slight compared to some of the female competitors (google Katrin Davidsdottir; if she’s not on the gear then nobody is). Bit of a looker too 😀

    aracer
    Free Member

    It’s tricky though. As discussed, before having any gender re-assignment surgery or hormones many trans-sexual women would have a significant advantage over those who were born as women. It seems rather unfair on other women to allow them to compete in the same class with such an advantage. Should trans-sexual women be entitled to forge a career in the women’s categories based on such an advantage?

    I get the loss of career bit, but then if you were good enough as a man to have a “career” then carry on competing in the men’s classes (if they’re not allowing somebody to compete as a women, then they can hardly stop them competing as a man). Or if you weren’t good enough for that, then carry on competing with the men anyway and don’t worry about not getting the wins you might if you were competing with the women.

    hopefiendboy
    Full Member

    He does have a point though^

    Stevet1
    Free Member

    I think it is very difficult for a sporting body to make very delicate decisions like this, so referring to a driving licence seems a sensible way of applying a simple rule, and offloading the responsibility of a decision to another authority who are perhaps better placed to immerse themselves in these difficult issues.

    Having said that, they are stuffed if the athlete doesn’t drive.

    <raises hand to offer a suggestion>
    .
    .
    <thinks better of it and puts hand down>

    What is the problem with that exactly? Nobody is suggesting scrapping women’s categories – if they’re not good enough to race with the men then there’s no requirement for them to do so. In this case it seems she is good enough to race with the men though, and I can’t see why the option shouldn’t be available.

    Wouldn’t that effectively weaken the womens field though – Top women would feel pressure to enter the Mens meaning that the womens field was a second class race?

    wrecker
    Free Member

    Why would they bother? Going from podiums to nowhere isn’t hugely attractive I wouldn’t have thought?
    Certainly wouldn’t be doing their sponsors any favours.

    TiRed
    Full Member

    In road racing in the UK, ladies can compete one category down with the men. Some do rather well too, and Anna and I are regularly sprinting for a first third finish in E123 races at Hillingdon. In time trialing ladies standards are matched to the elder gentleman – think I could be a lady 10 years younger soon :-).

    In cross, ladies would be at a huge disadvantage at the pointy end, but cross is popular enough to have large ladies fields. Other disciplines have a harder time.

    scotroutes
    Full Member

    meaning that the womens field was a second class race?

    surely it already is?

    In this case, I can’t see what the issue is, unless any transgender treatment was conferring a performance advantage.

    I’m can see that the authorities might be worried about setting a prececedent for the opposite situation.

    onehundredthidiot
    Full Member

    The problem, I assume, is not only their own rules but the discrimination laws too.

    You’d need an open race with qualifying times and a females only category, which some might see as sexist.

    Think its a tricky thing to legislate for in competitive sport.

Viewing 37 posts - 1 through 37 (of 37 total)

The topic ‘Did this get done – Transgender CX rider told to compete in women's category’ is closed to new replies.