I think my waterproof isn’t waterproof. The pic below is of a softshell worn underneath for 20m riding in drizzle (back of right shoulder). I am fairly sweaty but it looks to me like water coming through where the fabric touched the waterproof.

What do you think? I don’t want to send it back for TNF testing only to get it back again. And the DWR isn’t great just now but it should still be waterproof right?

IMAG0212 by alan cole, on Flickr

Try running it under a tap to see if there is any moisture coming through.

Stick it in the dryer for a while, see if that improves it.

What is it & how old?

sorry – were you wearing a softshell and a waterproof over it?

one of the main issues with this setup is that the softshell is probably very breathable so removes your sweat to its outer layer, but if there is no wind (i.e your wearing a waterproof) to remove the sweat off this layer it will stay trapped (as it wont allow it back in/trap it) and you get a sweaty-bag effect.

i find that a breathable softshell + unbreathable waterproof/windproof is actually a WORSE combination than a normal riding shirt + waterproof , because of this trapped moisture.

If the DWR isn’t great then when it gets wet the breathability will suffer.

I would guess it’s condensation on the inside face of the outer jacket that has wet the softshell.

I personally couldn’t ride in a softshell and waterproof shell unless it was well below zero as I would get too sweaty.

18 month old TNF Venture.

A softshell is more breathable than a regular garment, in one drection only? Despite being windproof?

I’m surprised you got that sweaty cycling for 20 metres.

I get that sweaty after 20 millimetres.

Softshells can vary on a scale from super breathable (and less windproof) to slightly breathable (and very windproof). Either way – neither is breathable enough to be worn under a waterproof.

yeah, condensed/transferred sweat

ewwwwww

As above, you’re wearing 2 shells and that means neither of them are going to work as well as they would alone.

So now the softshell is less breathable…if so then why is it transferring the sweat?

The sweat has passed through the softshell to the back of the waterproof. The outer shell is the least breathable, so it has condensed on the back of this.

I imagine the softshell itself’s only truly less breathable once the gap between it and the outer shell is pretty much saturated with water vapour
The problem is it’s more breathable than the outer and so the vapour condenses between the two.

Oh, and “breathable” my arse anyway – membraney jackets are sweaty full stop if you’re exercising anywhere near hard IME

You’re either wearing too much stuff (for the ossum power/heat output you’re generating) or your jacket really does leak

I can’t help being a sweater 🙁

That is the one and only softshell made out of brown-suede.

This is probably the issue.

give the jacket a good wash following the wash instructions as there could be grime particles that have clogged the membrane and reduces its breathability..then give it a good tumble dry for at least 30 minutes to dry it out and replenish the DWR coating.
i get the same problem sometimes with my adidas gore tex paclite jacket but it gets sorted with a good wash and dry.

Recently washed and DWR’d…

Your jacket is made out of Hyvent, which isn’t the most breathable fabric in the world.

However, breathability is a marketing con that basically says “We’re great, we can defy the laws of physics”. The idea is that water vapour wants to move from an area of high concentration, to an area of low concentration across the membrane you’re jacket is made from to attempt to reach an equilibrium. The obvious problem is that generally, when it’s raining, the air outside your jacket will have a higher concentration of water vapour than the inside of your jacket, and water vapour won’t be that interested in moving outside. The DWR helps by stopping water pooling on and wetting out one side of the membrane to help “lower” the apparent concentration immediately outside the membrane and encourage vapour to move across, once it’s gone and the jacket starts to wet out, you’ve compromised the breathability significantly. So actually, “breathable” waterproofs don’t actually work that well in rain.

I’d think that what’s happening is that once the water vapour from your your nice and warm soft shelled body shifts into the cavity between the waterproof and it, there’s no incentive for it to move across the membrane and out into the outside world. Additionally as it finds the colder inner surface of your colder waterproof, it’s condensing back into liquid water, which is then being rubbed onto the outer fabric of the softshell and making it wet.

I can’t help being a swearer

your language is colourful sometimes, i give you that.

I have resorted to a showerproof (Stratos) and 1 200wt icebreaker base. That seems to work well for me who salts like no-one i know.

Were you uncomfortable with your slightly damp shoulder? And were you wearing a pack of any sort?

It was super mild! But I now remember a similar thing happening when I rode with it on a cold but dry day, so it probably is performing as well as it ever will.

Will an Event or similar work significantly better?

Pack? Me? The 18th Duke of Wimbourne who’s been cycle commuting for 25 years? 😛

As above, you’re wearing 2 shells and that means neither of them are going to work as well as they would alone.

I do this regularly paddling, works a treat. Paramo under proper paddling dry top = toasty, warm, but a very wet layer between Paramo and waterproof. Maybe what you are seeing Al?

The softshell won’t be less breathable than a cycling top, but the difference is that the water won’t soak back into the softshell as much once it has passed through, so the water will pool between softshell and waterproof, whereas it would just stay soaked into the outer edge of a cycling top if it couldn’t pass out through the waterproof, so wouldn’t seem as wet.

Membrane/fabric breathability also relies a great deal on pushing out warm water vapour. With a just a cycling top under a waterproof it will be fairly warm right up until the waterproof membrane, whereas with a softshell on as well, more of your body heat will be trapped within the softshell, and it will be cooler between the softshell and the waterproof, leading to the vapour to condense between them rather than being transported right out.

Will an Event or similar work significantly better?

Probably not to any great extent for the reasons I gave regarding the problems with membrane based waterproof fabrics. Additionally, eVent is a bugger to keep working optimally as you need to give it a wash in a detergent every so often to keep the membrane functioning (it will leak through the membrane if it gets clogged oils and greases). This strips the DWR, so you’d then need to wash the jacket in a pure soap to clean off the detergent residue to allow you re-apply a DWR.

If you must have a full on waterproof for cycling, have a look at something made from polartec neo-shell. The fabric is about as breathable as you’re going to get at the moment for a membrane based fabric.

The alternatives are either:
Something like Paramo, which you could probably get away with on its own (i.e. without the softshell) as their jackets are normally quite well insulating. Breathability is very good as there’s no membrane to worry about. Just a wash in pure soap and an application of a wash-in proofer every so often should keep you dry.
or
A membrane based softshell e.g. WindStopper/powershield pro (normal powershield isn’t techncailly waterproof) which has a technically waterproof membrane, but the seams aren’t taped, so eventually water will get through and you’ll get wet. Also there will still be breathability issues

thebikechain – Member

I can’t help being a swearer

your language is colourful sometimes, i give you that.

I have resorted to a showerproof (Stratos) and 1 200wt icebreaker base. That seems to work well for me who salts like no-one i know.

Your salt tide marks are epic