Viewing 40 posts - 1 through 40 (of 71 total)
  • Depressing subject, but let's talk death.
  • flanagaj
    Free Member

    Not sure if I am alone here (I’m mid 40s), but do others wish you could just sign a form that would ensure you never have to experience a terminal illness type decline and could instead choose to end your life when you see fit (without heading abroad)?

    I know that might sound rather morbid, but when I listen to stories of people who have developed dementia or any other terminal illness I just think to myself that

    a) I personally would not want that.
    b) The financial burden that goes with such care.
    c) The pot luck end of life care that seems to exist in this country.
    d) The heartache for loved ones.

    The list goes on, but I just feel that as things currently stand in this country you just have to hope you don’t end up with a terminal incurable illness as if you do, you are at the mercy of the healthcare system.

    brant
    Free Member

    Life itself is a terminal incurable illness.

    jekkyl
    Full Member

    yes, but your attitude can change. At mid 40s now your opinion about what quality of life is might be vastly different to what mid 70s you thinks is quality of life. But yes I do agree. I’d also say that after dealing with the death of both my parents and sorting out their associated finances and funerals make your after death plans as detailed & specific as you can.

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    Trimix
    Free Member

    The older you get the less time you waste faffing about waiting for better weather before going out on your bike.

    According to up-to-date stats I’ve got about 35yr left.

    So that’s only 1,820 weekends of riding.

    flanagaj
    Free Member

    Life itself is a terminal incurable illness.

    I agree with that one!

    yes, but your attitude can change. At mid 40s now your opinion about what quality of life is might be vastly different to what mid 70s

    That might be so, but there is a huge difference betweent being self sufficient at 70 and living in sheltered housing to that of having to be bathed and dressed ….

    To me, the later is one that I would struggle to accept.

    loddrik
    Free Member

    I will never be a burden on my wife and kids so should I get a diagnosis whereby I would require caring for I’m off to dignitas.

    I’ve also told them in no uncertain terms that I absolutely do not want a funeral. Just reduce me to ashes and scatter me wherever. I’m not religious and dont want anyone to pay a stupid unnecessary bill.

    globalti
    Free Member

    We were up to 10.30 last night scouring Lancashire’s hospitals trying to find our elderly neighbour who took himself off to hospital with his wife, who has dementia. After one of their daughters involved the Police the nearest hospital’s security staff finally go up off their fat arses and went to look for him, they found her wandering distressed around the empty corridors and him waiting in a surgical triage room. It’s tragic to see how their lives are falling apart around them. One of the hospital receptionists told us that it’s not uncommon for them to clock off late in the day and realise that the same elderly folk are sitting in the main reception area who have been there since morning. When somebody speaks to them it turns out they’ve come to hospital and are sitting patiently, thinking they are in a queue and the waiting time is just very long. Being elderly they don’t want to make a fuss so have waited all day. Tragic.

    growinglad
    Free Member

    I saw my Dad wither away as a vegetable over a year and a bit…with no chance of ever coming back (Massive stroke). No Sight, unable to really breath on his own. Pretty much no movement apart from the odd shudder.

    They kept him alive as long as possible as he was in a private home and the government was paying the bill.

    Disgusting.

    How in this day and age we have more care for cats and dogs than we do for Humans is beyond me.

    If you had kept a dog alive like they did to my dad everyone would be up in arms.

    wicki
    Free Member

    I used to have a pub and in his last years we had my grandad we put a comfy high chair for him in the bar, on his 92nd birthday he was sat there and the village wag asked him how old he was today,

    92 said Bert , jeez said the wag i dont ever want to be 92 !

    you will when yer 91 said Bert.

    theotherjonv
    Full Member

    do others wish you could just sign a form that would ensure you never have to experience a terminal illness type decline and could instead choose to end your life when you see fit (without heading abroad)?

    Yes. But…..

    I’ve heard / seen three interviews in the last two days on this.

    One was the jockey Freddy Tylicki; paralysed from the waist down after a fall last Nov (OK, didn’t hear the interview but he’s giving his first full one after the event today)

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/horse-racing/38275323

    Then R4 had Matt Hampson, paralysed neck down in a rugby accident talking about his experience

    http://www.express.co.uk/life-style/life/608482/Rugby-Leicester-Tigers-Matt-Hampson-accident-scrum

    And lastly, a 2013 TV interview with Joost van der Westhuizen which i watched again yesterday after the news.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/38882483

    Sitting here, now, if something like that happened to me i’d want to be ‘put out of my misery’ straight away. No coming to terms with it, no questions. Close my eyes and be done with it.

    But reading and seeing these guys stories; sometimes something happens when the shit hits the fan in a massive way like this which creates an inner strength to carry on fighting. I don’t know whether I’d have that strength; I hope I never need to find out, but my hat is well and truly tipped to those like Freddy, Matt and Joost that did.

    #thatsnotdustitsmebeingemotional

    Moses
    Full Member

    you will when yer 91 said Bert.

    I remember my mother talking the same way as the Flanagaj the original poster, when she was 60-ish. Now she is 91, almost 92, she’s hanging on to her unhappy life while my dad (also 91) looks after her.
    Your thoughts on hanging onto life change as your body & mind change,

    fisha
    Free Member

    I personally think that there should be an ability to chose to end life in certain circumstances. Especially in the name of preventing suffering. We do it for animals, so why not ourselves.

    It seems hypocritical to insist that everyone has a right to life (which I fully agree with) but that they don’t have a right to chose to end it. Its their life to do with what they want with it.

    cyclelife
    Free Member

    planned my exit, what do you think of the ethics/effect on other people of my decision:

    cycle/walk to exposed area (if I’m not demented) enjoy my last bottle of Glendronnach, fall asleep.

    Substantial sum of money left to Mountain Rescue for the recovery of my body.

    Family seem happy with the arrangement, although of course they will not help me accomplish this for legal reasons.

    milky1980
    Free Member

    Not sure if I am alone here (I’m mid 40s), but do others wish you could just sign a form that would ensure you never have to experience a terminal illness type decline and could instead choose to end your life when you see fit (without heading abroad)?

    Yes.

    I have a savings account to pay for the travel abroad and repatriation for this very reason. I don’t want to die early or wish my life away but once I reach a point of not being able to look after myself I’d rather go on my own terms. Medical advances are all good but we should have an opt-out if we want to let nature have it’s say on when we’re done.

    Esme
    Free Member

    To quote Woody Allen:
    “I’m not afraid of death; I just don’t want to be there when it happens.”

    On the other hand, the thought of living for ever and ever is REALLY scary . . .

    MrWoppit
    Free Member

    I’ve already planned it.

    On the sun lounger by the pool looking at the mountains, listening to Miles Davis “So What” and drinking a nice tall glass of Russian Standard and tonic.

    Just one last slurp, and then….

    Mowgli
    Free Member

    It is especially difficult when the old/terminal ill person does not wish to go to hospital and have their life and suffering prolonged, but their children don’t respect their wishes. It is of course done out of love and wanting to keep their family member alive, but I am sadly seeing how much distress this can cause, on both sides. When the old person loses their mobility and independence, it seems they also loose some of their free will to chose what treatment they do and don’t want.

    As a slight aside, I’ve always found it odd how, when doctors assess someone as ‘having mental capacity’, if that person is suicidal, they are found to not have capacity and they then lose their ability to chose. As if it’s not possible to logically decide to end your own life. Catch 22.

    globalti
    Free Member

    planned my exit, what do you think of the ethics/effect on other people of my decision:

    cycle/walk to exposed area (if I’m not demented) enjoy my last bottle of Glendronnach, fall asleep.

    Substantial sum of money left to Mountain Rescue for the recovery of my body.

    Family seem happy with the arrangement, although of course they will not help me accomplish this for legal reasons.

    This is what I will do, if I am able. Walk to somewhere very cold and exposed, undress then neck a bottle of Scotch; vaso-dilation will have you gone in a few minutes as cold surface blood rushes to your core.

    We make a huge ceremony about birth and the beginning of a person’s life. There has been massive social investment in improving the birth experience since the last war. With the increasing age and frailty of our population we need to find a way of celebrating their achievements and the end of their life. The many Dignitas type clinics in Switzerland are not a satisfactory solution as they are a shoddy and undignified way to die. I don’t understand why family courts can’t scrutinise people’s cases and make the decision, which should overcome present objections to euthanasia. We could then have nice, privately run clinics where people go to end their lives, not grubby rented apartments and hotel rooms as they have in Switzerland. I’m sure investors would would jump at the opportunity to build decent clinics and create a new income stream.

    deadkenny
    Free Member

    Esme – Member 
    On the other hand, the thought of living for ever and ever is REALLY scary . . .

    Healthily, no worries. The thought of death and then non existence for the rest of time (currently predicted as infinite), assuming you don’t believe in an afterlife. That’s scary. Once it happens it’s no worry as you don’t exist to worry about anything, but the final years could be a constant panic that death is around the corner.

    Trimix – Member 
    According to up-to-date stats I’ve got about 35yr left.

    Yeah, that’s something that suddenly hits you in your 40s. Up until then seems like life goes on forever, then you realise you’ve wasted half of it already and while the first 10-20 years seem to take forever to pass, the last 10 seemed so short and you realise there’s not enough time left. Then still find things to waste time on. Though riding bikes is an awesome waste of time.

    flanagaj
    Free Member

    Some thought provoking responses above. I really admire those that have already planned things out.

    How in this day and age we have more care for cats and dogs than we do for Humans is beyond me.

    If you had kept a dog alive like they did to my dad everyone would be up in arms. I was just discussing this the other week. Not only from a humane perspective, but just in general regarding animal care and how it all seems so much better organised.

    Like was mentioned above, isn’t it time that rather than just celebrating life, death should be treated in the same way. The whole approach of keeping people alive as long as possible is truly shocking. I have no evidence, but I am convinced that my late father who died of cancer in a hospice decided he had had enough and was helped along. On reflection I hope that was the case as he knew his time was coming and he had already made peace with the world.

    ourmaninthenorth
    Full Member

    It seems hypocritical to insist that everyone has a right to life (which I fully agree with) but that they don’t have a right to chose to end it.

    Largely because we’ve come to accept the concept of a right to life, but haven’t yet got our heads round a right to death.

    This is mainly due to thological thinking: life is bestowed on us by an all powerful god, so it follows that it’s god’s right to remove that life from us. St Augustine & St Thomas of Aquinas were key writers propounding this view.

    It was only in the middle of the 20th century that suicide ceased to be a criminal offence.

    We’ve a long way to go before we throw off the shackles of religious thinking and allow ourselves those choices.

    muppetWrangler
    Free Member

    Most people that are terminally ill won’t be in a position to wander up a mountain or get themselves to Switzerland (for dignitas) without significant assistance unless of course you’re suggesting that you’re going to take these actions very soon after being given a terminal diagnosis, when you are feeling basically well. By the time you’ve lost hope you’re likely going to be unable to get up a couple of steps unaided.

    The law needs to change in order to make the act of terminating your own life simple, accessible and dignified. No point blaming healthcare professional as they have to work within a legal framework, the change needs to come from parliament.

    ourmaninthenorth
    Full Member

    planned my exit, what do you think of the ethics/effect on other people of my decision:

    cycle/walk to exposed area (if I’m not demented) enjoy my last bottle of Glendronnach, fall asleep.

    Someone my mother knew did similar in the late 60s: timed his arrival at hospital so that it would be too late to revive him. He figured medics were the best suited to managing it and the mess would be kept to a minimum.

    muppetWrangler
    Free Member

    According to up-to-date stats I’ve got about 35yr left.

    Nope. You might have less than a year or you might have another 60. Working to averages gives you an unrealistic sense of control. There are many aspects of your health over which you have no control.

    MrWoppit
    Free Member

    So what would you want your last words to be? Something philosophical perhaps? Instructional? Profound and memorable?

    Mine will probably be:

    “(Sluuurp) Mmmmm. Luvvly!”

    Cougar
    Full Member

    This is mainly due to thological thinking

    Much as I dislike organised religion, I think this is perhaps a little unfair.

    Rather, the elephant in the room is one of exploitation. By the time you’re in a position to actually want to die, you’re probably incapable of reliably stating that wish. Meanwhile, little Timmy has his eyes on his inheritance, “squeeze the needle, it’s what he would have wanted.” Even preparing in advance is tricksy – you might well have the best of blasé intentions in your 40s, but an entirely different opinion when you’re 85.

    Apropos of nothing, we got a company-wide email not half an hour ago, one of our engineers died suddenly last night. He was 64, was in the office yesterday laughing and joking with us all.

    bikebouy
    Free Member

    Voluntary euthanasia FTW.

    Once you get past enjoying life, bullet to the head or a nice slice of Arsenic taken alongside one of those nifty pills all secret agents carry.

    Can not see the point of dribble and regret mixed with bed baths and Rusks.

    metalheart
    Free Member

    My mum (86) had lymphoma and she got increasingly ill last year until middle of July when she collapsed in the house. She had signed a DNR (mainly because my dad had been persuaded to due to having had heart surgery) so the paramedics were informed and they stopped defib. She never made it to the hospital. I saw her the evening before and it was extremely distressing (she nosedived significantly over her last 4 days). Now I love(d?) my mum to bits and I miss her every single day but I’d not have had her de-fibbed and spend her last days in hospital, especially in the confused state I last saw her in. She was adamant that she had lived a good life and, well, you have to die of something.

    My dad (81) had lung cancer and heart disease (amongst other things) and he died 12 days after my mum. The family were round in the evening, he seemed in relatively good spirits, he knew he was loved and he died peacefully in his sleep (my bother was also in the house so not alone either). I’m glad he didn’t die of his cancer and we siblings have discussed things, we think that given a choice his death would be easy top ten in a multiple choice option…

    I feel they died with dignity.

    I’d like to think my own death would be the same.

    Whilst I am full of respect and admiration for those that fight, say, cancer (and beat it) but myself, I think if that was my fate, I’d not go through all that. Planning on an early check out myself.

    mikejd
    Full Member

    At a slight tangent here, I recently read a book by an American psychotherapist called ‘Staring at the Sun -Overcoming the Dread of Death’. It’s about dealing with anxiety about death and coming to terms with it.

    We have in the last two years had to deal with MIL with Altzheimers going into a nursing home and dying, and my father also going into a nursing home. Both were and are being well cared for but had/have little control of their lives. I dread this happening to me. My father is 88 and I am 67 and, although I’m fit and healthy now, it has brought this to mind.

    councilof10
    Free Member

    I must have a different outlook, but I would cling to every last bit of life I possibly could… The Reaper will have to drag me kicking and screaming from this world!

    When it stops, there’s nothing. No pain, no indignity, no struggle. But there will be no glimmer of happiness, satisfaction or pride. Even if I’m comatose, incoherent or demented, I want to live every second possible because once it stops, we can’t change our minds!

    If there is the slightest chance that I’ll be able to hear the voices of my loved ones, understand their lives – even if only for a fleeting and confused moment – I’ll take that over the Long Sleep.

    funkmasterp
    Full Member

    I think one of my friends put it best when he said “I’m not scared of dying, I’m scared of dying in pain” I am in complete agreement with that statement. If one is sound of mind and suffering from a terminal illness or severe paralysis it should, in my opinion, be up to them to decide how to proceed.

    loddrik
    Free Member

    One of the benefits (such as it is) of losing my parents young is that I never have to see them decline and be a shadow of what they were or farmed off to a care home etc. Hundreds of thousands of people are just existing, rather than living, with dementia. It’s devastating for the families of those involved and bankrupting the NHS. No way will I ever put my family through that.

    wobbliscott
    Free Member

    It’s quality of life that is important, no point living a long time if you’re not mentally or physically able to enjoy it. I’ve been considering pensions recently. I’m in the fortunate position of being on a final salary pension but considering whether to draw it when I retire or, under the new rules, take draw the lot as a bag of cash and invest it myself. Seems pointless to have a constant income until I die, when I could have more control to spend more of it in the younger years of my retirement When I’m a dribbling mess in a rocking chair at some god forsaken old folks home what’s the point in having a big pension – it’s of no use to me then. It’s quite depressing I’m getting to the age where I am having to consider these sorts of things.

    But yes, I’m all for euthanasia – it’s my life and it is possible for it to be over before death takes me, and at that point then I’m happy to be converted to a pile of ashes and used to fertilise someone’s veggie patch or something. I don’t want the humiliation of being a dribbling mess and don’t want to burden anyone with having to look after my every need and clean up my #1’s and #2’s.

    Cougar
    Full Member

    Hundreds of thousands of people are just existing, rather than living, with dementia. It’s devastating for the families of those involved

    Yeah, my dad went through this recently, popped his clogs after spending a year in hospital and another two in a nursing home talking shit, in constant pain all the while. It’s a thoroughly unpleasant way to check out and I wouldn’t wish it on anyone.

    Dickyboy
    Full Member

    Rather than planning your death, why don’t you plan to live as long and as healthily as possible? I have a talisman around my neck that my wife gave me – it says best before 13.09.2098 – my 134th birthday, mind you before we got together I was planning coke, hookers and a canoe trip for my 80th

    jekkyl
    Full Member

    If you could know the date of your death would you want to know?

    P-Jay
    Free Member

    It’s some morbid shit isn’t it.

    Mrs Jay is a District Nurse, end of life care is the bulk of her work, I get the full debrief of how people die these days every night. No two cases are the same. Lot’s of people’s last few months are pretty shit, it’s a very emotive time – being clear, very, very clear about what you want to happen is a big help – some relatives are too nice. Some are utter **** both hurt their loved ones.

    Some go around ranting and raving, DEMANDING to know WHAT’S BEING DONE FOR MY MUM!!!! well the truth is, she is going to die, sooner rather than later and no amount of shouting down the phone to GPs or Hospitals is going to change that, it’s not an episode of House, you won’t find some gifted Doctor who makes it all go away and most people die of something, old age doesn’t really kill you, it just makes you weaker and weaker until something you’d barely notice at 20 kills you, unless you have one of the dozens of things that can kill you at any age. Don’t fill people with false hope, or subject them to endless tests and procedures, it’s just cruel.

    Don’t be one of those poor sods who spends their last few years “in the house they’ve always lived in” some relatives have some dewy eyed idea that their barely with-it parent would never want to leave the house they all grew up in. Truth is, if you can’t care for yourself, it’s not a home, it’s a prison and you’ll live for the 15 mins a day when someone comes to change you and they leave all too quickly because they’ve got 20 visits that day, but mostly, if they were honest – they’re greedy bastards who don’t want their inheritance ‘wasted’ on residential care. If you get to live to an age when you become so weak you can’t care for yourself, sell-up, move into a home, don’t wait till you’re really frail and let them stuff you into the first council run home they can find.

    My advice? Don’t worry about “the end” climbing mountains, last drinks – sorry, it ain’t going to happen – it’s not sudden, it’s subtle, you’ll be long past climbing mountains before you’re mentally prepared to die, you won’t have a choice – when it’s time for you to die, you’ll be at the mercy of others, sorry, that’s the facts – otherwise it’s suicide.

    You have a lot more control about your quality of life in old age than you might think, put that energy into giving yourself the best chance of a long healthy quality life for as long as you can – you hear smokers say “oh I could give up and spend 20 years having my arse wiped in a home” – yeah carry on sucking on 20 a day, you’ll live perfectly healthy till 70 and then die in your sleep, bollocks (PS you don’t die in your sleep, doesn’t happen).

    Stay sharp, keep your mind working, Stay supple – keep moving, don’t retire to a comfy chair and nothing else – it’s not “sods law” your back gave in the day you retired – you gave up and your body followed suit. Don’t kill yourself – Heart Disease, Cancer that’s what kills people – and guess what – a lot of it is avoidable – 90% of cancers are caused by lifestyle. It’s not rocket surgery, you don’t need to drink kale and quinoa smoothies for breakfast – a balanced diet, some moderate exorcize, not smoking and not drinking too much – chances are you’ll serve most of it – what to avoid the financial drain on your loves ones? Don’t abuse your body now and it won’t abuse you in old age.

    Oh and when the time comes, if you can, even if you don’t mean it, however scared you are – tell your family you’re ready to die. It’s shit, but it’s for them.

    muppetWrangler
    Free Member

    If you could know the date of your death would you want to know?

    Yes. I work much more effectively with a deadline and I reckon the same would be true on the larger scale.

    4130s0ul
    Free Member

    “I’m not scared of dying, I’m scared of dying in pain”

    This was a common thought I had after suffering a stroke. It took a while to get back to being able to walk, talk and move etc but I was young and getting on with it was just something you had to do. but being the youngest in the stroke ward by a good 50 odd years and seeing how badly a stroke could affect someones quality of life really left me feeling if it happened again just let it be the big one and ensure I miss out on a life of suffering.

    But maybe that’s just it, maybe it is more a case of “I’m not afraid of dying, I’m afraid of living in pain”

    Dickyboy
    Full Member

    Well said P-Jay

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