Sounds like she’s playing ‘pass the piss take’

Appreciate all relationships are different but have you asked the MiL directly why she still isn’t giving you all the facts??

Cab advice

But from my time as an mental health nurse and now as a landlord the definition of treating people ‘reasonably’ depends on an individual’s situation. As a guess, if your Mil had disabled car badge and attended hospital 3x per week for treatment etc, then reasonable is leave the car. If she is fit and well and has full capacity, the hamlet has a shop for essentials or good public transport to such, then they may consider in reasonable to take it. In my experience, they don’t have to predict what might be reasonable in say 5 years, if she were to become infirmed.
Equally courts can take quite a harsh view on people who have essentially ‘chosen’ to put themselves in hardship. As a nurse I was surprised how harsh things could be, as a landlord the opposite. I doubt they would force a sale of the house, but did believe a charge could be raised on the future sale of the property….but this latter part is hazy, so I would advise speak to cab or other debt support.
As already noted, the real random is the lack of honesty, it really does look like you are having your pocket picked. But I appreciate it’s your wife’s family, so I’m not intending any disrespect. I spaffed away the best part of £30 bailing out lying tossers, but they were lying tossers in my own family so appreciate this is not an easy area. Good luck.

Still not too transparent on her affairs,

She won’t tell you because it won’t be the first time she has bailed him out.

Her argument is 100% morally right;

Her argument is 100% morally WRONG = she took on responsibility to pay this debt if Mr Hot Spunk didn’t – and here we are.

1. SHE can always talk to the lender. They want their money back and are likely to be somewhat flexible to achieve that.

2. She could pay, then the bailiffs won’t get involved.

3. Is the debt secured on her house? – unlikely since she has already sold an unknown part of it to an equity release company

4. If she isn’t honest with you, showing you all the relevant documents, then walk away.

5. No idea.

I, and I guess other posters, am struggling to understand why the fecklessness of your BIL and your MILs lack of straightforwardness/enabling of fecklessness is your problem.

1-4 can be covered by getting her arse and yours down to stepchange or the CAB and talking about it.

No5, You could make her bankrupt or she could make herself bankrupt. She might lose her house and car (if it’s worth more than a couple of k) and she’ll not get credit again for at least 6 years. The council might re-home her or they might not (as she may be seen as making herself homeless,I don’t know). Guess who will be expected to put a roof over her head?

No 6 , WASH YOUR HANDS OF THE WHOLE THING! I suspect your wife is pressuring you to help out. Right? You need to convince her that it is BOTH your futures at stake here.

Whatever happens it will all be your fault anyway!

Ok a different angle. It’s her son. I had s conversation about my Dad dying at a right old age of 78. My Aunt’s and Uncle said ‘I beg your pardon? We aren’t far off that and we are nowhere near frail’.

Some are, some aren’t, some have cognitive issues some don’t. Your bil isn’t getting help from just anyone, its his Mother. It’s her son. Your a son in law. You can only do so much.

That’s a different angle.

I’m NOT saying I agree with it but I always think of all angles.

Clearly you are a very nice person and trying to do the best for your Mil.
However, as almost everyone has said you will not get your original money back. If you take out another ‘final’ loan, it won’t be the last, they’ll be back again and again until you are in the same situation as they are. There is no protecting your Mil from this (to me she sounds little better than your Bil).
At this point advice is all you should offer and since they don’t appear be listening to that,
I
stop offering that too.
The bizarre thing is that if you again loan then money, they resent you more than I’d you don’t, because they now have to pay you back – which they won’t.
I don’t know your financial situation, but for me £7000 is a lot of money, when you come to retire that amount of money may make the difference between comfort and struggle. You have to think of yourself also, you’ve done more than enough!
Best of luck.

I reckon the second best thing you can do (after walking away and washing your hands of the entire thing if they continue to refuse to be honest and open with you) is to try and protect the mother from her son. He’s taking advantage of her, and quietly pissing away your wife’s inheritance.

How you would go about that, I’ve no idea.

The answer clearly is in reality Tv. For this I would advocate Judge Rinder for the best tongue in cheek airtime. Failing this its your friend and mine , Jeremy Kyle.
Just let us know when your on so we can record it .

However , in the real world..I would be going down the small cliams court for an attatchment of earnings on your BIL to get back at least someof the £7700. This will be a nice little reality check, and might stop access to further credit ( debt ) due to credit scoring/ CCJ’s.

Not pleasant but hey , thats alot of months of taxed take home pay you had to earn to pay for someone elses accident.

The other problem is your MIL and the £4400. Thats hard , but after watching a few episodes of that horrible program ‘ Cant pay.- We’ll take it away’ people ignore all correspondance with the lenders, then the courts, then the Baliffs. Burying their heads in the sand and hoping it will all go away till one morning there is a bang on the door and 2 thugs in a white van are outside with a writ.
Then it all gets nasty and there are tears, but this situation can be avoided by talking to the debt collectors. I think she is going to have to arrange payment by instalments now. Otherwise all the court fees balifs etc will double that £4400 very quickly and it will happen.
Sorry.

Right, back home now.

Seems like she did speak to the credit company but they said that he’d already negotiated a new repayment schedule and then defaulted on that before she became aware of it as guarantor, hence now they had no interest other than full repayment. Which didn’t come, hence county court and where they are.

She also spoke to the court after having had the judgement paperwork come through asking what instalment options she might get and they said the same, if she’d represented at the court, or sent her papers back explaining why she couldn’t repay they’d have considered it but now it’s pay or else. She of course said that she did send the papers back but it’s only her word, no copies or Proof of Posting, and the court says nothing received so that avenue’s closed.

The final recourse is to pay £250 to appeal the decision and then argue why you need to pay it back at £10 a week or whatever, but I just said that I was struggling to believe her side of the story based on the evidence so why should the court – it just looks so far as ignore and hope it goes away.

So I’ve left it with her – with my strong advice to pay the money asap, seek the CCJ to be set aside and move on. As you say there’s a chance he’ll do it again and it’s up to her what she does then, but on that I can’t make her decisions.

Re the wife. No, I’m not getting any pressure. Of course she’s worried about the impact on the MiL but the impact on her inheritance – if the MiL draws down the entirety of the equity in it we don’t get any anyway so not worth losing sleep over at this point. It’ll be what it is, first and foremost despite her stupidity at agreeing to act as guarantor and her inability to react to the issues of being guarantor, no-one wants her homeless or destitute.

Esselgruntfuttock may be the best to advise you on Discipline regs in the service, for police it is something that the officer has a duty to disclose. Of course if someone were to tell the prison service I am sure their internal rubber heelers would follow it up and it would be investigated. If they are anything like the police rubber heelers they wont let anything go…

I still say best to support than to increase your own risk for this tw8ts incompetence with his tool and his finances!! 😯

I’d be tempted to see if she can get any more equity release, get your £7.7k back now. It’s too much to write off.
Sorry if it sounds a bit cruel but the way they’re going you may never get anything of either of them.

I’d be very careful about the will, it wouldn’t be the first time for someone in your sisters position to find everything (or the majority) left to her brother “as he needs it”. Wills are a nightmare as they can be changed very easily.

FWIW the debt situation isn’t too bad yet, if this gets sorted out it (ie MiL and BiL bailed out) it will get much worse.

Been there, done that. It’s like bailing a leaky boat. The requests will keep coming, and when you finally call enough, you will be the bad guy as obviously you’re loaded because you’ve been able to provide all the previous support. The whole family will turn on you…

Stop now. May as well be the bad guy right away and get to keep your own money.

There’s a big assumption that the MiL is ‘bad’ in this. She is as in she should have accepted what guarantor means better, and then dealt with it sooner rather than just try to shovel it on as ‘surely they won’t pursue an old lady, I’ve given them all his details, etc.’

But I don’t think she is, she’s now in too deep and wants help getting out. Too right, more transparency would help – I suspect that’s less forthcoming because she is better off than she lets on but likes to play the ‘poor widow’ role – but I don’t think she’s going to be caught out again.

As for the will, I’m executor so I have a copy right here with me and the amendment to repay my loan to him is clear in there. I agree, she could change any time and not tell me but that assumes again she’s bad.

She didn’t ask me for a loan, I said it was an option if the money wasn’t available elsewhere, but that we had to find the money because with the option of a CCJ and a bill increasing with bailiff costs etc., or paying the bill and having the CCJ set aside it was beyond a no brainer if other options weren’t available. Which was the point of the thread – practical advice on options, not (kind as they’re meant) assumptions on the evilness of my wife’s side of the family 😉

Personally Iwouldn’t give any more money and I would point her in the direction of proper debt advice – CAB or law centre

There’s a big assumption that the MiL is ‘bad’ in this. She is as in she should have accepted what guarantor means better, and then dealt with it sooner rather than just try to shovel it on as ‘surely they won’t pursue an old lady, I’ve given them all his details, etc.’

I doubt anyone thinks she’s ‘bad’. But most will think she has been foolish to an extreme degree and quite a bit sly with her assumption that they won’t chase old Mrs Miggins down the road for their money; just coz she’s old.

And it is their money. When you sign a loan agreement you should understand what you are signing; ignorance is not a defence.

1/ Owing £4.5K to the loans people via the court. Is it too late to ask for a repayment schedule now or do the court still give that alternative? – YES

2/ If no alternative, what can the court allow to be done? eg: bailiffs, and if that happens what are her rights about access / what can and can’t be taken. Example – car? She lives in a remote hamlet 120 miles from us so I can neither get there when the bailiffs come knocking nor can she really do without a car. ANY PROPERTY UP TO THE VALUE OF THE DEBT.

3/ Do they have any financial rights to her house – in the grand scheme it’s a small debt so forcing the sale of a house is probably impractical but could they. It’s been equity released so she doesn’t own it all anyway. THEY COULD PUT A SECOND CHARGE ON THE PROPERTY< BUT WOULD NOT FORCE A SALE.

4/ She claims to have no savings and lives off state and a widow’s pension month to month. I don’t know if this is true or not.

5/ What would happen if she declares bankruptcy – is that an option? – NOT AN OPTION. SHE HAS EQUITY AND PROPERTY (CAR). THESE WOULD ALL BE TAKEN AND SOLD BY THE RECEIVER. IF HER ASSETS ARE MORE THAN THE DEBT SHE CANNOT DECLARE BANKRUPTCY.

5/ What would happen if she declares bankruptcy – is that an option? – NOT AN OPTION. SHE HAS EQUITY AND PROPERTY (CAR). THESE WOULD ALL BE TAKEN AND SOLD BY THE RECEIVER. IF HER ASSETS ARE MORE THAN THE DEBT SHE CANNOT DECLARE BANKRUPTCY.

She can.
She can file for her bankruptcy, as can any of her creditors, but the judge probably wouldn’t accept the application.
It would be a very daft thing to do though.

Thanks lowey; clarification

1/ Owing £4.5K to the loans people via the court. Is it too late to ask for a repayment schedule now or do the court still give that alternative? – YES

Is that YES it’s too late; or YES to the court still giving the alternative

I doubt anyone thinks she’s ‘bad’. But most will think she has been foolish to an extreme degree and quite a bit sly with her assumption that they won’t chase old Mrs Miggins down the road for their money; just coz she’s old.

I don’t know, there’s quite a few insinuating that. Foolish, definitely but I genuinely believe she doesn’t want me and the wife to suffer as a result, hence she’s making plans to compensate. And while I don’t want to create a ‘moneybags me’ impression, the money I already lent is now largely immaterial because it’s gone. If there’s equity left in the house come the time I’ll get it back, but if she needs it for her living expenses then she can have it, I don’t want her destitute so I can get repaid.

And it is their money. When you sign a loan agreement you should understand what you are signing; ignorance is not a defence.

100%, which is the annoying part. She knows why i didn’t agree to act as guarantor to him first time and (against advice, yes) opted for the loan, so to then agree herself was daft

Mate, you need some proper advice. But if you want the random advice of people on the internet then get yourself over to the debt forums on moneysaving expert. There are people on there who deal with this stuff for a living and will point you in the right direction.
You do need total honesty from your MIL though or you’re just beating your head against the wall.

Good Luck!

I can see you are just trying to be the better person here. She might have her own reasons for being less than honest with you but you’re fumbling around in the dark while that’s the case. She either comes clean with you or goes elsewhere for help and advice.

1/ Owing £4.5K to the loans people via the court. Is it too late to ask for a repayment schedule now or do the court still give that alternative?

It is likely they will entertain this. Bailiffs, bankruptcy etc often ends in them not getting paid anyway, so they likely will entertain repayment plan. Not least as they have judgement, so they can call that in at any time if she doesn’t keep up the payments.

2/ If no alternative, what can the court allow to be done? eg: bailiffs, and if that happens what are her rights about access / what can and can’t be taken. Example – car? She lives in a remote hamlet 120 miles from us so I can neither get there when the bailiffs come knocking nor can she really do without a car.

In the first instance they are only allowed in her home if invited in. Items outside are another matter, It may be worth parking he car next door for the time being. If she refuses to let them in they can go back to the court to obtain an order to forcibly enforce judgement, but takes time.

3/ Do they have any financial rights to her house – in the grand scheme it’s a small debt so forcing the sale of a house is probably impractical but could they. It’s been equity released so she doesn’t own it all anyway.

In the long term, yes, possibly via way of a bankruptcy petition.

5/ What would happen if she declares bankruptcy – is that an option?

Kind of, but presumable her house has more equity than the debt etc, which would make it pointless and unnecessary. For instance she could sell her house, and the creditor is likely to be happy to wait if they are made aware.

6/ Bottom line is that I can very easily (decision in 5 mins stuff) get another loan and pay it off. Which i think is what she wants me to do. Whether she pays it back slowly, or makes another will provision or what, I don’t know. And while every sinew says ‘once bitten’ – as I said at the start it’s family stuff and hence I can’t just wash my hands of it.

Thats a very tempting option, all depends if that is a big chunk of money to you. Its a semi-manageable situation, particularly if she is willing to sell her house. That being said she is a long way away and mat well tap you up for your spare room if she becomes homeless.

Hope that is a little help.

Fwiw I find the vast majority of creditors are open to a reasonable solution with a reasonable person. I’d therefore get your MILs co-operation, possibly by way of a mandate for you, to talk to them to explore solutions/payment plans.
Whatever the outcome of that dictates your next step as your MIL losing control by way of debt enforcement/bankruptcy will probably incur a financial cost => the 4.5k loan you’re considering. Fees rack up very quickly ime.
Your MIL absolutely needs to understand, or to be aided here by power of attorney or similar, not to repeat this. Mentioning involving his employer to the BIL may help here plus possibly threatening to pursue offence of manipulation of the MIL (appreciate this won’t hold up but the threat might help)?
I respect those warning against bailing out but the sum involved here isn’t vast and is worth the loss, to me anyway, in trying to help ONE LAST TIME.
Good luck and communication with the creditors, the court and family members is key.

I don’t know how the law where you are works, and while I don’t think you should do it, can you approach the debtors and buy the debt at a discount?

I once bailed out a mate in Oz like this. I paid 50% in the dollar for the debt. Start at less, you’ll be surprised how keen they are to deal.

He eventually repaid a bit of what I had paid, but that was ok because as far as I was concerned I wrote the money was written off, ie I never expected to see a cent of it back.

Any update OP? The 3 weeks left to make a decision must be pretty much up now.