It’s not me, it’s family members which makes it extra difficult because whatever the morals (and I know there are plenty that’ll read this and say it’s a problem of their doing, let them sort it) – I can’t. It’s long but I really need sensible practical advice – even though a spade and a new patio is a compelling alternative.

It started ages ago when my BiL who has a decent job (prison officer) got himself into trouble with a girl and ended up having to pay child support. As a result he got into debt. He came to me and asked me to be a guarantor for a loan with one of the Wonga-a-like agencies and naturally I told him to get stretched – as per other threads I don’t share a mortgage with my wife and partner of 21 years because she doesn’t have a good credit rating and there’s no way I was going to tie my rating to his!

Instead, I took out a bank loan and gave him the money with him repaying me the repayments. May even have been against advice on here at the time – but there you are. It went well for a few months, with money coming in on the nail and then it started being a bit short and I’ll pay you extra next month and …… and then stopped. He still owes me £7.7K and I don’t think I’ll ever see it although his Mum (my MiL) has apparently made that provision in her will.

But he then asked his Mum the same question and against my advice she agreed. You can imagine the rest – loan defaulted, and they are both jointly liable. But because he hasn’t a bean and she has a house and a car and things, they are pursuing her for the money. Yes, I know that’s what a guarantor’s for.

Right, scene set – she came to me with the ‘they won’t pursue a 73 year old widow will they?’ and I told her absolutely, they’ll hound you. But she won’t communicate with me properly about it, so I’m giving her advice without any facts or paperwork about what they’re actually asking for. She (supposedly) went to the CAB and they gave advice on how to deal with them, but whatever steps she took it resulted in court papers. Which she (again apparently) filled in and sent back to them. I say apparently because I haven’t seen either of the CAB advice or the court papers because (facepalm) she didn’t keep a copy. And now the court has issued judgement and a chance to pay promptly and have judgement set aside. I have seen this judgement (although she then took it off me again) and it says that it is issued against her +1 (which is obviously the BiL) but the order to pay and document is all then in her name and sent to her address, etc. She says she wrote to the court along with the papers explaining the situation and giving full contact details for the BiL but again get this – no copy kept, and even better she sent it just via regular mail and the court says they received nothing. No Proof of Posting, certainly not signed for. Facepalm again – but I’m suspicious.

Right – here’s the issue.

1/ Owing £4.5K to the loans people via the court. Is it too late to ask for a repayment schedule now or do the court still give that alternative?

2/ If no alternative, what can the court allow to be done? eg: bailiffs, and if that happens what are her rights about access / what can and can’t be taken. Example – car? She lives in a remote hamlet 120 miles from us so I can neither get there when the bailiffs come knocking nor can she really do without a car.

3/ Do they have any financial rights to her house – in the grand scheme it’s a small debt so forcing the sale of a house is probably impractical but could they. It’s been equity released so she doesn’t own it all anyway.

4/ She claims to have no savings and lives off state and a widow’s pension month to month. I don’t know if this is true or not.

5/ What would happen if she declares bankruptcy – is that an option?

6/ Bottom line is that I can very easily (decision in 5 mins stuff) get another loan and pay it off. Which i think is what she wants me to do. Whether she pays it back slowly, or makes another will provision or what, I don’t know. And while every sinew says ‘once bitten’ – as I said at the start it’s family stuff and hence I can’t just wash my hands of it.

Anyone got any sensible advice or do i just grab the spade and start digging?

I have no experience with anything like this, but you have my sympathies. Families are complex beasts, particularly when information is less than forthcoming.

My immediate reaction when reading your situation report was Point 5, as long as you can comfortably afford it. However, I’d not entertain such an arrangement without FULL disclosure of all the facts from both MIL and BIL, with strict instructions that this is a one-time-only offer. If you let them try to resolve the situation on their own the debt may increase dramatically and the value of the estate (and ultimately your inheritance) may suffer if MIL’s assets are seized in lieu of payments.

The fact that they are in-laws may affect your reaction and generosity – it would mine!

As above, they can’t expect you to put yourself on the line without coming clean to you. They’re are putting you in an incredibly difficult position simply because your BiL couldn’t practice safe sex.

Stressful situation.
I reckon you’ve done everything you can to help them.Fair play.
Re point6 -It would be madness to get another loan and expect to see a penny of it returned.
Can you buy the MIL’s house? Then rent it to her?

Practical advice? What does your wife want you to do?

Do that.

I have no experience of the costs of maintenance, but is it not related to income? Should he not have had it reviewed after losing his decent income? Apologies, but it sounds like an excuse for other financial issues. If you do take a loan, (which I wouldn’t) is there anything you could agree to take as capital to make the point that it isn’t free money? Eg. The car? Is there any other members of their family? If so, what are they doing?
Sorry to sound unsympathetic, but it is their own doing and they are grown adults with responsibility. Id still be fuming over the previous unpaid loan…

Sadly though it already cost you 7k. He’ll keep going and you have the issue of your MILs Debt. I feel you’d be better off offering and showing her advice. Is she vulnerable, do you feel she should be referred to a health professional?

Your bil is very aware of her situation?

How many times are you going to bail them out?

If they won’t let you have full access to the situation I’d tell them to go **** themselves. If you can’t see the whole picture, you don’t really know what you’re getting in to.

Throwing good money after bad.

That’s complicated.

Do they have a call on her house? If it’s secured on it, yes.

Bankrupcy? If she should die before the debt is discharged, they would get to dip into her estate. Before family, which is crap.

You could approach who now owns the debt (not necessarily who lent her the cash) and agree a payment schedule. They want the money, they don’t care where it comes from. You can negotiate.

It might be possible to release some equity from her house; plenty of places do that. I wouldn’t do it but it’s an option.

BUT, what will stop her throwing cash stupidly at the big spender? The child support thing is a blind, they don’t take money off you you don’t have, he’s still spending without consequence because family are bailing him out.

If MIL suddenly finds herself with £20,000 in her bank, he’ll be round in quick order sniffing.

He needs to be taken to task. Quickly.

Sadly people need to hit the bottom before they realise. Before that point they exhaust all the goodwill around them.

Me? I’d do #6 (fully expecting that I’m giving away £4.5k) but would hope for the best. I would also explain that this is putting you and your family in financial jeopordy, and cannot be repeated…EVER.

As above – get an equity release on her house. This is above board with building societies offering this service. There is no way I would be borrowing money on your mil’s behalf after she has very deliberately not let you see court papers or the advice received from CAB.

As a prison officer his job could be at risk. When the debt collectors loan sharks child support etc start knocking on his door and contacting his employer to enforce court orders to get their chunk.

I ended up in a similar position, but it was my niece and sister-in-law. My brother ended up disabled due to an rta to which he was entirely to blame. Suffice to say every family has it’s pricks. I got stung as guarantor on the niece’s first loan. I had the fund’s, but didn’t want to be chasing her for regular payments, and so an £8k lesson into just how much close family can lie and cover the truth up. After about 18 month’s of crappy, I ended up sorting an additional £20k of debt, they had all got simply to avoid them dragging my mum in. Fast forward 4 year’s and my mum is still dragged in, and their is tension all round. I’ve not had any contact with brother, wife and niece etc for 2 years, but all good with my mum which is the important bit. Suffice to say I wouldn’t bother with option 6, and bailiffs due have a code of conduct for how they treat vulnerable groups including the elderly. My advice, hard as it is, is try and stand away. Although given it’s your wife’s family this could be hard.

Bankrupcy? If she should die before the debt is discharged, they would get to dip into her estate. Before family, which is crap.

All creditors get paid first anyway, before any beneficiaries, whether bankrupt or not.

What a mess! For starters you can kiss your £7k goodbye. It’s time to be hard hearted. Help with advice and steer them in the right direction, but they aren’t willing to be straight with you, so ****’m! Is the MIL, BIL etc aware that you took out a loan to help them or do they think you have deep pockets?

You really need some good, professional advice. There was a thread on here not so long ago about where to go, or you could try here: http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/

All the advice about stumping up the £4k and wagging your finger “for the very last time”…
Ignore it! Your bailing them out is just a sticking plaster on a head wound gushing claret. Your MIL is in it up to her eyeballs!

I think the thing I found most disturbing in my experience was the fact that once people think you have deep enough pockets they almost stop adding up how much, in my case I think they almost saw it as ‘my’ debt they were borrowing, and that started the instant I became guarantor. My attempts to resolve the problems ‘once and for all’ were just petrol on the fire. So as above, ignore the final payment idea, it just can fuel further problems and drag you in deeper.

And sorry for the second post saying essentially the same as the first, I just realised the first didn’t say RUN AWAY loud enough.

Further equity release from the house to cover both the current debt and the earlier debt to you.

You’ve no idea if there are other debts involved too. I’d certainly not entertain taking on more debt for them.

The best help you could offer would be to accompany them to the CAB or similar.

The equity release idea seems like the most sensible approach.

My experience as the borrower – albeit not in distressed circumstances – is that dealing with family over money is a nightmare. Time over again, I’d never do it.

OP it sounds like you have pretty much written off your 7.7k. I think you need to make a clear decision on that. And then ignore the emotion of it when adddressing the MIL debt. If you want to be repaid, understand that you’re now way down the list, so the chance of recovery is already minimal.

I would strongly countenance you do not take on any more debt on behalf of anyone (esp if you’ve just written off 7.7k). I would also be very wary about getting involved in any way that could land you in hot water – there are rules about “undue influence” surrounding the financial affairs of the vulnerable.

Just keep repeating the mantra of “You’re going to have to get legal advice.” And then take your BIL to one side and tell him that he has no choice but to man up and start taking responsibility for what he’s done.

If she has no income I’m surprised she was accepted as a guarantor.
I’d be reluctant to get involved financially as already said it will happen again and again if you keep bailing him out, don’t think your helping the mil out, as her son will have more of an influence on her than you and it will happen again.
Have helped my bil out in the past and it comes back to bite you just bigger and more expensive.

My mum owes me £40k after suffering depression and developing a problem gambling habit. It’s complicated, but in the end you basically have to turn off the taps for them to sort themselves out.

I have a private mortgage over their house – they will end up paying me back when they sell / die.

Bailing them out would be the very definition of insanity – doing the same thing time and time again and expecting a different result.

I guess that you are getting pressured from your Mrs ? She has a bad credit history, so does her mum and her brother is spending more than he earns and in effect stealing from you – taking a loan without intending to repay it.

Tell MIL and BIL where they can get help/advice and nothing more. Giving them cash is simply trying to mop up the floor whilst the sink is blocked and the tap is running. If you *give* them more money they will be back for more in xx months time.

I’ve seen friends go through this. If you pay it, this is what will happen.

You won’t get repaid – he’s already got multiple debts he can’t pay off and she’s living month to month so how can they?

You will now be seen as Bank of Jon and they’ll piss away even more money on solid gold televisions knowing that they can come to you with a sob story and you’ll get out your chequebook again.

“I’d love to help but I can’t afford it, sorry.” The BiL has taken advantage of his elderly mother and either has no scruples or no brains. The entire story is fecklessness after fecklessness, and you bailing them out won’t magically make them more feckful.

If she has no income I’m surprised she was accepted as a guarantor

She has a pension. She also has assets which would make me fear the loan was secured on her property. I would be insisting on finding out whether that was the case because her house is in danger. Not her car, or the contents of the fridge, but her home.

A grip needs to be got; now.

If you decide to help out, can you make it a condition that your MiL signs full control over her financial affairs to you? That way you can see exactly whats what creditor wise and put a plan in place. I would only offer that on the provision that she lives on whatever allowance you give her thats left over and that you get your 7K back by doing what you need to do (eg equity release). If you offer such an approach it will at least confirm to you whether she genuinely wants your help or just a handout.

OP; could you not buy a proportion of the house for 5k?

That would give them the money and also protect your contribution, just find out what the house is worth then calculate what percentage of the property is worth 5k.

Make it clear though that this is the end of the rope and they will be cast adrift next time, tough love is sometimes needed.

When will it stop? Clearing the debt if possible is fine, but what happens if he accrues more debt? Will the debt keep coming to you until you’re in financial difficulty too?

Very compicated. Best of luck with whatever you decide.

Ended up ‘loaning’ b-in-law best part of £10k, following his redundancy and reluctance to either take a job below him or cutting his cloth to meet his new reality. Lot’s of emotional and relationship hurdles crossed on the way. Got really tricky when I pulled the plug on it all, and at the time impacted me a mrs b quite heavily. I realised we had loaned the best part of a years overtime, and that money for us was all the fun money for the family, and we were cutting our cloth, so twatneck didn’t have to go without what we were.
7 years on I have about 5.5k back, but that’s been hard fought. I’ve all but written off the rest alongside the relationship with him. Totally frigging nightmare, never again. Just leave them to it.

Loaning more money will only kick the can down the road. If the house has already been equity released then the cash from that must have gone somewhere… It could well be this the creditors will go for. If this is the case and you mil can no longer afford to stay where she is what will then happen? Will she be moving in with you?
You either need a full and frank disclosure of all financial details and then you can see what will be the least pain in ten long run or if no one will agree to this wash your hands and stand back…

As many have said this will continue until no one has anything left

OP, What is your missus’s view on this? If you decide enough is enough you really need her on side. If not it could get a bit sticky. I don’t envy your situation.
Is her brother the reason she had money problems?

Sorry to hear about your problems, OP, but don’t pay out another penny here. You are only throwing good money after bad!

I haven’t read all the replies but have this but if advice. If the BiL acknowledges the debt maybe they could ask the court for an attachment of earnings directly from his wages.
That way the lender gets their money in (relatively) guaranteed installments and no action will be made on the MiL.
You said he’s in a good job so that should give the lender more security that the attachments will be honoured.
It’ll affect his credit score adversely but take the pressure and worry off his mum.

Nothing to add apart from DO NOT TAKE A LOAN OUT and give it to them.

If you had the cash and could afford to loose it fair enough but you never know what’s around the corner and how your own circumstances could change.

As a prison officer you must conduct your financial affairs in a ‘proper and responsible’ way… States the IVA Advice Forum. Which leads me to suspect that just like Police Officers management of debt, the failiure to discharge a lawful debt will be a discipline issue. I have not been able to locate their regulations online but I would be damn certain that they will be along those lines as it is part of the process that is intended to reduce the risk of an officer becoming susceptible to financial entrapment or coersion.

Just another angle to consider as this could also come into play in the event that his employer The Ministry of Justice decide to discipline him and decide the only viable sanction is to terminate his employment. If you are into the next swage of debt relief then that could be the final nail in the coffin so to speak of their and your own financial security.

It is difficult to do and will continue to be difficult but I stand alongside a lot of the other comments on this thread and that is to say, advise your MiL and guide her but do not put yourself in the very real position compromising your own financial independance. As has already been said, the issue that your MiL has an equity release already in place for her house, you have to question to what percentage that extends, where has that money gone and having dealt with my mother and fathers house after they passed away the equity release company have very stringent conditions when they should obtain their return from their investment. An added pressure in normal circumstances when dealing with probate, but potentially this could be compounded as any debt secured over and above the equity release scheme would also have a call on the remaining equity. Meaning you get diddly squat yet again…

Good luck and be cautious very very cautious in making your decision!

It started ages ago when my BiL who has a decent job (prison officer) got himself into trouble with a girl

It’s not me, right!!

How long has he been in the job? Cos he could be on 19k or 29K.

Crap crap position, feel for you, if i was willing to borrow to lend them id want it in writing and legal that id want double back in percentage or no deal, for example house worth 100k you give them 10k they owe you 20% of the house after your wifes cut is subtracted!!

Thanks everyone for advice. It’s exactly as I know it to be, and I’m not doing it to help him, it’s to help her now and it would be the last time, promise.

Anyway buoyed by your advice and almost unanimous support that I shouldn’t be putting more of my money into it, had a long talk with the MiL yesterday (we’re visiting so hence why unable to update on here all day yesterday).

Still not too transparent on her affairs, I do know she has done equity release on her house which is worth maybe 200-230K but how much she owns and how much she has released I don’t know. I also understand the bit she released is a bit like an annuity, she can have it cash or as a payment monthly or both, but the more she takes in cash the less she gets per month – hence if she takes another 4.5K to bail out her debt (and it is hers, as said I don’t know if they’re also pursuing him but she’s definitely got the debt in her name+1 and now the CCJ). But as I said, she can’t rely on him to come good on it so if she doesn’t pay the debt in the next 3 weeks (cos a week’s passed already) she’ll still owe it plus bailiff’s fees plus more interest plus she’ll never get credit again so she has to bite the bullet.

Where I’m still in a hole is that she says she’s going to ‘think about it’ – which could well be MiL speak for ignore it again. Her argument is 100% morally right; it’s his debt and he’s doing nothing to sort it, why should she. But 100% legally wrong – she signed willingly to be a guarantor against my advice exactly so if he does default she guarantees to pay. So while I agree completely with the idea that some people have to hit bottom before they can climb again, in this case I feel like watching someone climb over the parapet and jump without trying to grab their arm. Which is fine if it’s a stranger you never met, but I’m not unattached, and there could be repercussions later down the road.

Hence why, and I’ll again ask, any practical advice on clearing the debt in a more controlled way. Everyone’s been very kind on option 6, which still might be the ‘only’ one open to me personally, but anyone in the know got any practical advice on 1-5

1/ Owing £4.5K to the loans people via the court. Is it too late to ask for a repayment schedule now or do the court still give that alternative?

2/ If no alternative, what can the court allow to be done? eg: bailiffs, and if that happens what are her rights about access / what can and can’t be taken. Example – car? She lives in a remote hamlet 120 miles from us so I can neither get there when the bailiffs come knocking nor can she really do without a car.

3/ Do they have any financial rights to her house – in the grand scheme it’s a small debt so forcing the sale of a house is probably impractical but could they. It’s been equity released so she doesn’t own it all anyway.

4/ She claims to have no savings and lives off state and a widow’s pension month to month. I don’t know if this is true or not.

5/ What would happen if she declares bankruptcy – is that an option?

Interesting comments on the Prison Officer / Financial Affairs thing. Another reason to sort it out; if he loses his job it’s not only him screwed but also the two kids he has to support (his indiscretion resulted in twins, at least one of whom is Downs. And while I’ve never met them and probably never will, they deserve better too) Anyone know what the Prison Service do in this respect, do they periodically credit check their officers or what?

As said earlier, how can you expect to help if she won’t tell you the honest situation?

If she refuses to tell you the true state of affairs how can you possibly know what to do for the best?

For all your good intentions, they’re pissing you about. Why let them? Give them an ultimatum, tell you everything or they go it alone.

You’ve done much more than I would have done already.

For all your good intentions, they’re pissing you about. Why let them?

This

For all the questions you have above your MiL knows the answers.
Until they are honest with you about the current situation, you’re just continuing to be bent over by them.
How many more skeletons are there in the closet?

For all you know, the agreement could have been secured against the house.
The majority of the capital in the house could already have been released

You need to get them all together, put a rocket up their backside, and get them to tell you the whole story.
Otherwise you’re just waiting your time and getting yourself into more trouble.