>All the pies – that is the position. The UK is a signatory to the European convention on Human rights which is incorporated into EU law. It is a prerequisite for being in the EU that you obey EU law.

Yes, so you say. Just looking for verification of that. I can find government documents discussing repeal of the UK act but they don't mention withdrawal from the EU as a prerequisite.

TJ – the European Convention on Human Rights is not an EU treaty, and the Council of Europe which supervises the European Court of Human Right in Strasbourg has nothing to do with the European Union.

A large number of the Council of Europe members (Russia, crucially but also Azerbaijian and others) are not and will not be EU members.

It is the European Convention on Human Rights which is incorporated into British law by the Human Rights Act.

Theoretically I don't think there is a legal reason why the British government could not repudiate the ECHR and its Council of Europe membership while remaining an EU member state, although as a practical matter it is admittedly unlikely.

5th – perhaps so ( but I don't believe it is) – but the then thats nothing to do with the human rights act being incorporated into UK law. Remember before 1998 you could still take rights cases to Starsbourg

Big Dummy – you miss one of the crucial points by mixing up English. Scottish and UK law.

A UK ( there is no such thing as british government) cannot repudiate the incorporation of the ECHR in scottish lawa s they do not have the power.

I thought that being a signatory to the ECHR was a prerequisite for being an EU memebr – perhaps I have that wrong

As a gloss to that, I agree that signing the ECHR is regarded as pre-requisite for new EU membership, so in practice repudiating the ECHR would be a tough sell. I don't think that it's formally a condition of the UK's continuing membership of the EU however.

I'm not sure it greatly affects the argument you're making incidentally, so I do not propose to spend much energy worrying about it. 🙂

On Scotland, apologies you are of course correct. I wonder though whether Cameron is being either stupid or mendacious by not talking about these issues in terms which accurately describe how implementation would work in Scotland.

It is possible that he is simply not worrying about Scottish aspects of any of this, because he is well aware that his party is not going to control Holyrood in a hurry and will win very few Scottish seats at Westminster. That does not have any great bearing on the attitudes of the people he is trying to win over, who are almost exclusively not Scots.

While it may not be accurate to talk in the terms he's talking in, perhaps he isn't lying or ignorant of the issue, he just doesn't actually much care. Or am I trying to give him too much credit? 🙂

Time for a new pledge card eh TJ?

In all seriousness – we've already got a Bill of Rights – I'd like to see that enforced fully to the letter of the law before we worry about writing a new one!

How about the Northern Ireland bit then? A british bill of rights? That excludes NI as it is not in britain

Or these, maybe?

wow TJs irrational bitterness toward cameron is actually superceded by the vitriolic propoganda posted by Z11 and CFH

politics really brings out the best in people

TJ, sorry but this is an epic and frankly rubbish bit of trolling on your part.

I'm going to vote for the Tories this time because they are most likely in my opinion to sort out the economy.

As for the Human Rights Act you might have a point in there somewhere but consider, who was it wanted to extend detention without trial to 90 days? Labour is nothing if not authoritarian.

McBoo – I make no attempt to defend the authoritarian streak of labour. It stinks.

I do actually think this stuff is important as it shows that Cameron is a mendacious liar and also shows his contempt for the UK countries that are not England. He also shows how weak he is in the face of the far right – as also seen in the formation of a new group in the EU by the tories.

it shows that Brown is a mendacious liar and also shows his contempt for the UK countries that are not Scotland. He also shows how weak he is in the face of the far left – as also seen in the pandering to the Unions.

😉

TJ – Can you tell me which politician isn't a liar and won't target his/her statements to target a particular part of the population if will suit their purposes?

Clubber. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. Thats a tricky one for sure. Clegg? Ken clarke?

I do think this is particularly nasty and dangerous tho.

it shows that Brown is a mendacious liar and also shows his contempt for the UK countries that are not Scotland. He also shows how weak he is in the face of the far left – as also seen in the pandering to the Unions.

Pretty stupid CFH. But I expected nothing less.

>it shows that Cameron is a mendacious liar

I'm not sure what he's lying about TJ ? You were wrong about repealing the Human Rights Act without having to leave the EU (is that lying or being thick 😉 ). So apart from the part about the Scottish parliament requiring to give consent for a change in Scottish law (so substitute England for UK), what's he lying about ?

The thing is, I reckon that the Tories will get in with either a small majority or a hung parliament worked in their favour. Either way, I can't see them able to do anything so drastic that they'll get away with it.

Cameron is pretty lightweight but I honestly think that with Clegg being unrealistic (and I do agree that he and Vince Cable are probably two of the more honest (less dishonest!) politicians out there) he's a better choice than more labour which irrespective of what they do stand for (or at least originally did) have reached the point where they've been in power too long. A change is better than none in the current circumstances.

TJ – since we're on the subject of liars, you recognise these words?

The EU now has 25 members and will continue to expand.The new Constitutional Treaty ensures the new Europe can work effectively, and that Britain keeps control of key national interests like foreign policy,
taxation, social security and defence. The Treaty sets out what theEU can do and what it cannot. It strengthens the voice of national parliaments and governments in EU affairs. It is a good treaty for Britain and for the new Europe. We will put it to the British people in a referendum

Note also the repeated use of the word Britain!

Now, does that mean that Northern Ireland – which as you quite rightly point out, is not part of Great Britain, can have a referendum on the Lisbon treaty?

A change is better than none in the current circumstances.

Change for changes sake is not a good idea. The Tories are not yet ready to Govern.

I didn't say change for change's sake. I said exactly why a change is better than none at the present moment.

I will attack cant and humbug where ever tehy come from

…. on an internet forum about push bikes.

What is he lying about – he cannot repeal the human rights act without leaving the EU – that is clear. he cannot repeal it in Scotland – that is clear, the Human Rights act does not hinder the fight against crime and terrorism as he claims. 3 lies.

I will attack cant and humbug where ever tehy come from

You can always tell when the brandy's kicking in with TJ, he starts to go all teh and tehy – watch out for it in his streams of blathering rhetoric…….

TJ, even if the Cons don't get in, I will be stuck with that idiot as my local MP. The amount of people who are fooled by his 'everyman veneer' in West Ox is unbelievable.

I will attack cant and humbug where ever tehy come from

…. on an internet forum about push bikes.

Or to put it another way, I will drone on repeatedly about the same old same old, but on no account actually do anything about 'it' 🙄

Hilldodger – I do actually walk the walk as well as talk the talk – or I have done in the past. I do actually try to live by my principles and try to improve the lot of the poor, weak and those in need.

and try to improve the lot of the poor, weak and those in need.

Sainthood awaits then.

Alternatively, I have a rather deep distrust of anyone who feels it appropriate to guff on like that.

Hey ho, keep wasting the bandwidth.

Three points:

1. Changing UK law would have an effect as the European Court of Rights as I understand it provides a margin of appreciation for national laws in its decisions. So changing national law will have an effect. Lawyers differ on how important this is, but the mere existance of such argument indicates there is a difference to be argued therefore the law is different. (Joseph Heller would be proud of that argument)

2. Having been at Oxford at the same time as Cameron I know a lot of people who studied PPE and it certainly was not the easy option populated by thick toffs. Of course there were exceptions like Ed Balls.

3. I think the use of British is fairly common to describe the whole UK, it may be wrong but it is common usage. Was Gordon Brown ignoring NI when he said "British Jobs for British Workers"?

I do actually walk the walk as well as talk the talk

Well can we have a bit more walking and a bit less talking then 😉

Politics is a career as well as a vocation – bitter criticism of the exponents of the system is pretty pointless as they are only doing what will succeed with the electorate.

Better to try and put alternatives than just rant "labour aren't labour enough, and tories are too tory" – that isn't really a valid point to argue from when you never seem to actually say what you stand for other than some fluffy concept of middle class do-goodery……

You want my personal political philosophy again? I have stated on here often enough.

Dark green pacifist co operative anarchist. I could write screeds on it but it would be rather pointless.

Over tha last decade I have vote Green, SSP, SNP and labour ( but only for Malcolm Chisholm as he is both a medic and the only person to resign a government post over Iraq)

I spend my working life as a nurse for the elderly and have been involved in trade unions and anti fascist movements. My karma is good

TJ – Robin Cook?

Dark green pacifist co operative anarchist

means nothing to me other than a semi-random list of buzzwords…

I spend my working life as a nurse for the elderly and have been involved in trade unions and anti fascist movements.

So other than your paid employment and a bit of rabble rousing, nothing then…

My karma is good

karma ?? sounds a bit snakeoil-ish to me

Don't worry about your human rights, Europe is looking after them and kicking British pocket dictators into line.

>he cannot repeal the human rights act without leaving the EU – that is clear.

Really ? You haven't provided any evidence to back this up.

>he cannot repeal it in Scotland – that is clear,

True – without the consent of the Scottish parliament.

>the Human Rights act does not hinder the fight against crime and terrorism as he claims.

In your opinion.

> 3 lies.

Nope.

So other than your paid employment

As a nurse, I suspect TJ has done his bit. And then some.

Hilldodger – do you really want me to explain? It is rather tedious.

Rabble rousing? When did you last do something for the good of others without reward? I did a lttle bit of good in small ways. Nothing eatrth shattering but I try to do my bit of good. Public service ethos.

Do you really think I could not have made far more money in another profession?

TJ….what if your political philosophy actually does more harm than good? The left doesnt have a monopoly on moral perfection you know.

Example – India I think we will all agree is finally on the right track. Is seeing child mortality rates plummet, life expectancies lengthen…..literally hundreds of millions of people being lifted out of absolute poverty and the establishment of an enormous middle class. All good stuff yes? This only started to happen when India finally abandoned bedsit socialism, embraced the global market and unleashed the little capitalists within.

What I'm saying is, some of us are on the right (I'd consider myself a liberal or libertarian actually) because we really truly honestly believe capitalism to be for the good of everyone in the long run. If you cant get past Tory=evil then there is not much point in further debate……

McBoo. I am not of the left. How many times do I have to say it.

Mate I'm trying to be nice but really you are being a bit of a pretentious c0ck today…..

Dark green pacifist co operative anarchist

Give me strength