The disproportionate rate from private schools, even when the grades are the same, shows it about who you know and not what you know.

Not necessarily. I suspect it’s more down to family background and attitude. If your parents are bankers or entrepeneurs, and you’re a bright kid, you’re going to be talking about this stuff at the dinner table. You’ll be middle class so your parents will spend a lot of time imparting their knowledge and attitudes. So when you get to 18 you’ll be more likely to be confident and well-informed of things generally. I’d hazard a guess that that kind of thing is more likely to get you through an Oxbridge interview. Plus the top schools are more likely to be priming you for Oxbridge all your life.

I suspect that part of the reason we have a powerful “elite” is that we’ve always had a powerful elite, going back to 1066.

I think your parents probably, just, fall under the umbrella term of who you know Molly

THM it is less than 10 % who are educated in private schools i yet they strive to only let 46% of them in.
Its movement but at glacial rates

Bizaree to abolish two segments of education that produce excellent results and are often praised as being world class. Dont you think it would be better to apply the lessons learnt there more widely rather than abolish excellence – when has that been a route to success?

So we have a possibly well-intentioned but otherwise misguided Sec of Education who goes off on silly tangents and then cant execute them making a mess of education. so what do the schools that are free from such intervention do?

1. Instead of pretending that they can create an English Bacc they recognise and encourage pupils to take the challenging and international recognised IB (no, Gove the English Bacc is not the same thing)
2. And/or they move to more challenging exams (IGCSE, Pre-U) etc. that are far better suited to the academic rigours of higher, tertiary education etc

Neither of the above are answers to all – but there are important lessons that Ministers and the rest of us can learn from the world class educational establishments that exist in the UK. Perhaps then better equality of opportunity (if not outcome) will be achieved in the UK. It certainly needs to happen.

JY – I agree its movement is too slow but the causes are also more complex IMO. Apart from the “abolish-type” arguments, I suspect were are a lot closer on all this that the lines of text above suggest. 😉

I guess I am more of a half-glass full guy when it comes to the UK with the possible exception of the future of education sadly.

but there are important lessons that Ministers and the rest of us can learn from the world class educational establishments that exist in the UK

The biggest lesson should be that education is an investment worth making.

I guess I am more of a half-glass full guy

Well if you had tried a bit harder at school you would realise that the glass is twice the size required for the volume of liquid it contains.

Bizaree to abolish two segments of education that produce excellent results and are often praised as being world class. Dont you think it would be better to apply the lessons learnt there more widely rather than abolish excellence – when has that been a route to success?

But think how good state schools could be if the money and parental energy that goes into private and faith schools went into them instead.

The lessons learnt there are largely that better equipped schools with better/happier teachers, smaller class sizes, and pupils from academic backgrounds do better academically. There’s no voodoo involved.

MSP. I agree that education is an investment worth making and have made considerably personal sacrifices in that regard. Sadly I was allowed to get away with only one science O level and that was bilge, so hands up on the lack of such understanding. Actually isnt it 3x?

Dont you think it would be better to apply the lessons learnt

The more money you spend on education per pupil the better it is and of course select your pupils on ability first…I give you academies – I wish that was just a joke

I suspect were are a lot closer on all this that the lines of text above suggest

Quite possibly…feels dirty goes for a shower 😉

I dont mind the best/most talented/most able getting the best education* unfortunately what we have is the richest getting the best education

* as long as we educate everyone to the best of their ability in the most appropriate way.

The fact that Oxford/Cambridge takes a higher proportion of private school kids is simply because private schools churn out cleverer than average pupils through a combination of everything that makes kids perform better, teachers, pushy/suppourtive parents, diets, tutoring, you name it, they probably have an advantage over the average pupil in state school.

this is just plain wrong, state school pupils with comparable grades to private school pupils do better at university. Private schools churn out pupils with better grades and wider cv’s but they are not cleverer.

100% agree grum (ok 90%). There is no voodoo for sure. But abolishing centres of excellence (the missing 10%) is not the solution IMO.

Agree on parental energy although too much of that is not a good thing!

Not sure about the money argument, since there is not actual withdrawal, but lets leave that one!

Junkyard – lazarus
The more money you spend….

Where have we heard that one before?!? 😉

Anyway entertaining and interesting stuff and supervision ( :wink:) time over, so time for a swim.

2. And/or they move to more challenging exams (IGCSE, Pre-U) etc. that are far better suited to the academic rigours of higher, tertiary education etc

From sept all the kids staying on at school have to take english lan gcse if they havent got a pass. English dept are putting ours in for IGCSE as its easier…….

I think that varies by board and subject tbh, but it is another interesting debate (especially with English)!