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Dairy farmers selling milk for less than it costs to produce How does that work?
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molgripsFree Member
This is interesting, and seems fairly balanced – read to the end:
nachoFree MemberI’m no expert, that fitday was the first thing that came up on google and there is alot of truth in it such as what catle are fed. I am sure google could provide plenty of arguments for both sides, my personal choice is where possible to avoid eating products that I don’t know what is in them. Same as LHS we try to eat as little processed food as we can (which is very difficult, especially when you like cakes and chocolate)
Ref the DEFRA link (thanks quite informative) it does say to convert to organic you need to:
:Stop the use of growth promoters, synthetic amino acids, herbicides and pesticides in your system:jumbleFree MemberIn the EU set-a-side payments went early 2000’s.
The Single Payment Scheme is a flat rate based on acreage and cross-compliance (husbandry if you like) rules.
There are additional schemes which can earn you more money which are environmental based. For example developing wild meadows or beetle banks. I would not consider these as being “paid not to farm”.
Fresh Goods Friday 696: The Middling Edition
Latest Singletrack VideosFresh Goods Friday 696: The Middlin...horaFree MemberI can’t stand milk. Hideous stuff…well unless its Sterilised otherwise its Goats milk.
teamhurtmoreFree MemberKona. That’s the hidden side of free trade zones. We can benefit from trade creation within them but we can also lose from trade diversion where we end up paying more for goods that we would otherwise. Not often that we hear about trade diversion though is it – especially in Europe!?!?
LHSFree MemberThis is interesting, and seems fairly balanced – read to the end
It is interesting but only by the fact that they say that the benefits are a good source of Calcium, Vitamin D etc which can be found from much better sources than milk (Nuts, grains, leafy greens etc). For me personally, the benefits aren’t actually benefits, the negatives however are very worrying.
neilc1881Free MemberShifter – You don’t see a farmer on a bike???
IMAG1014 by neil.d.cox, on FlickrSorry to everyone/anyone who is getting fed up of that photo cropping up!
The problem in the UK is that few buyers want to pay a true price for the cost of production of their food. I took lambs to market a fortnight ago and got £1.80/kg, last week it was £1.50/kg. So an average 32kg Welsh mountain lamb was £48. If you look at the cost of getting lambs there, from feed over winter for the ewe, drenches for worm and fluke, rent/mortgages, machinery costs (even knackered 2nd hand stuff, not everyone has a brand new Deere) the margins are tight. Subsidies do come with cross-compliance and other stipulations, but without them farmers would be broke (or buyers would pay the ‘real’ price of their food, which I’m guessing wouldn’t go down very well!).
The payments for environmental schemes (such as Glastir in Wales), are based on a farmers commitment to provide certain habitats or practices that are benefitial to the environment but these require a significant amount of work to meet. For example I could plant an orchard, fence off a pond including a 3m border or create a wildlife corridor but the cost of doing so would pretty much match the income provided by the payment. The environment benefits, but I would lose acreage and therefore income from farming the ground.
molgripsFree MemberYes, it is good in many ways that food is cheap, but we also need to maintain domestic food production.
zilog6128Full Memberor buyers would pay the ‘real’ price of their food, which I’m guessing wouldn’t go down very well!
Personally I would prefer that to my tax dollarz going to the EU to be arbitrarily distributed (after the vast majority is sucked up by the bureaucracy no doubt). If it means I have to spend a bit more of my income locally (on food) than on foreign-made bicycle parts then I would happily live with that.
molgripsFree MemberIf food becomes more expensive then people who are very poor will end up cutting even more corners, and their kids’ nutrition could suffer.
zilog6128Full MemberThere will always be cheap food, whether it is imported from abroad or whatever. I was talking about the example Neil mentioned above. Doubt very much people on the poverty line are buying Welsh mountain lamb, but I would be happy to pay the correct price for something like that.
LHSFree MemberIf food becomes more expensive then people who are very poor will end up cutting even more corners, and their kids’ nutrition could suffer.
Not necessarily. There seems to be an (unrealistic) expectation that food should be cheap enough to be able to eat meat for every meal, and a parallel expectation that you need to eat meat every day. It is this mindset that is the main issue here. If people ate more grains, pulses and vegetables and less packaged / processed food, meats etc then their kids would not only be healthier but they would save significant amounts of money.
brakesFree Memberfarmers > processors > retailers > consumers
everyone is to blame to some extent. but surely the retailers have the greatest control over price? they control the supply chain and also tell the consumer what they want.
mikewsmithFree MemberAs with most who say “I’d rather pay more for my food and less in subsidies” 90% say that right until they see something cheaper.
There was a HFW one about battery/intensive chickens. He showed people what was going on, got them looking after free range chickens and still found them in Tesco’s buying intensive chickens. their reason, it’s cheaper.
konabunnyFree MemberSubsidies do come with cross-compliance and other stipulations, but without them farmers would be broke (or buyers would pay the ‘real’ price of their food, which I’m guessing wouldn’t go down very well!).
Buyers are already paying the real price of their food – just through taxes. That subsidy money doesn’t come from thin air.
Yes, it is good in many ways that food is cheap, but we also need to maintain domestic food production.
Why?
zilog6128Full MemberAs with most who say “I’d rather pay more for my food and less in subsidies” 90% say that right until they see something cheaper.
maybe, not me though. I used to eat cheap chicken a lot, maybe every other day. Now I only buy free range, but due to the cost probably only have it once a week if that, also I now buy thighs, etc instead of breast (which I only buy now if I’m doing fajitas!)
BunnyhopFull MemberI would happily pay a little extra on a pint of milk if I knew it was going to the farmer, not Johnny bloody Sainsbury’s favourite shareholder.
we buy ours from the milkman, who gets it from the local dairy. it costs more but i know where the money is going.
JunkyardFree MemberAs with most who say “
I’d rather pay more for my food and less in subsidiesi have a fact for your ” 90%say that right until they see something cheaper.make them up for effect😉
I am sure price is a great motivator but it depends on what info you give.
I think supermarkets have made the market thus and then say look it is what our customers want.
There is no message on quality just adverts saying we price match and give you money back etc
Jamie oliver changed perceptions on cheap food for example
I agree price motivates many but it need not be the only factorkonabunnyFree MemberAs with most who say “I’d rather pay more for my food and less in subsidies” 90% say that right until they see something cheaper.
That doesn’t make any sense.
brakesFree MemberI buy milk based on taste, not price. Whole milk normally. You generally pay for taste.
I have no idea whether paying more for it improves everybody’s margins or just those of the retailers/ processors. I generally buy the Yeo Valley organic stuff.
That doesn’t make any sense.
it makes sense in Junkyworld and that’s all that matters.
JunkyardFree MemberIts not my quote smarty pants -absence of typos and quite brief 😉
neilc1881Free MemberKonabunny,
When I said
‘Subsidies do come with cross-compliance and other stipulations, but without them farmers would be broke (or buyers would pay the ‘real’ price of their food, which I’m guessing wouldn’t go down very well!).’and you responded,
‘Buyers are already paying the real price of their food – just through taxes. That subsidy money doesn’t come from thin air.’What I mean is that, yes people pay for food indirectly via taxes and Brussels, but most are not really aware of this in a day-to-day sense. The price on the packet is what most see as the cost to them, the other cost, via taxes, is out of their control. That said, many bemoan farmers being given such subsidies, but should they be faced with a cut in subsidies they would soon find that the price they pay increases and be unhappy about that too. Either that or we would see an increase in imports of cheaper, poorer quality produce. That is another can of sardines to open though…
brFree MemberI drink full-cream (blue top) milk, usually a pint or so a day plus whatever goes in my endless teas’.
No idea whether it is 100% good for me, but certainly know that it’s far better than the fizzy drinks that everyone else seems to consume.
Delivered every second day by our local milkman.
molgripsFree MemberIf people ate more grains, pulses and vegetables and less packaged / processed food, meats etc then their kids would not only be healthier but they would save significant amounts of money.
Hmm. In theory maybe but there is a practical reality to face. You can get a cheap burger or sausage out of the freezer, cook it, and it tastes ok. I bet that is cheaper than cooking a lentil meal from scratch, and I guarantee it’s a lot easier and requires less skill. I do wonder sometimes if posters on here actually know poor people. Yes it is possible to work a job, come home and cook properly, but it is hard. Especially without skills, support and practice.
What I mean is that, yes people pay for food indirectly via taxes and Brussels,
Yes, but taxation is progressive, so poor people effectively pay less for their food than the rich.
LHSFree MemberYou can get a cheap burger or sausage out of the freezer, cook it, and it tastes ok.
I would disagree on that, but i get your point.
I bet that is cheaper than cooking a lentil meal from scratch, and I guarantee it’s a lot easier and requires less skill.
Disagree, if you have a cheap burger, you will be hungry 30mins later (as well as feeling like s***. A proper cooked meal, which lets be honest is not hard, will be cheaper and you will be fuller for longer. I can go to my local farmers market and for £10 come back with 4 big backs of fresh food which will last the week.
zilog6128Full MemberYes it is possible to work a job, come home and cook properly, but it is hard.
Eh? Just because you cook food yourself doesn’t mean it has to be MasterChef standard every time. My dinner tonight, which took me less than 5 mins and zero skill to prepare this morning, is a cheap cut of beef, some diced veg and a tin of beans chucked in the slow cooker. Might splash a few drops of woozy sauce in later if I’m feeling adventurous.
D0NKFull MemberI bet that is cheaper than cooking a lentil meal from scratch, and I guarantee it’s a lot easier and requires less skill.
hmmm I dunno I reckon it’s probably pretty easy, however laziness to learn new stuff means I’ll be doing chicken something for tea tonight instead of a nice dahl.
JunkyardFree Member1 onion
Spices
some lentils
waterChop onion
add spices and fry
add lentils and water [ passata and stock if you really want to ]
Cook till done
Add other veg if wantedI reckon 3 mins prep and 20 mins cooking
I reckon I could make about 5 kg cooked weight[2kg dry] for about £3-4 and it would last about 25 sittings [ 200 g per meal*] or 15 p a pop.
With rice I reckon another 5-10 p in cost
I market it as the tibetan diet for the very poor
* 400 calories ishD0NKFull Membercan I just reiterate
however laziness to learn new stuff means I’ll be doing chicken something for tea tonight instead of a nice dahl.
😉ps “cook till done” is an absolutely top rate cooking instruction that I think should be added to all food packaging.
molgripsFree MemberDisagree, if you have a cheap burger, you will be hungry 30mins later (as well as feeling like s***
If you have been brought up on frozen burgers, pizzas, pies and oven chips, then you will be satisfied and not know the difference. Trust me, I know many many people who do this. They can’t conceive of cooking vegetarian food from scratch any more than you can conceive of living happily on burgers and chips.
My dinner tonight, which took me less than 5 mins and zero skill to prepare this morning
It did take skill. You had to know what to put in your slow cooker, how to prepare it, and how it would all react in what kind of cooking. You know stuff without realising it.
I know the rudiments of cooking but I had to figure it all out myself, and it involved a great many awful unappetising meals and a fair few that were inedible and had to go in the bin.
When you’ve been working all day at a factory, you’ve got whining kids who won’t eat, you’re exhausted and don’t know how to deal with them, but you know they’ll eat burgers and chips, it would take quite a lot of effort to plan a meal, cook, to wait til it’s done and try and get the kids to eat it.
Cooking meals is not hard IF YOU KNOW HOW TO DO IT. If you don’t, it’s a mystery.
JunkyardFree MemberInvotes DONK and Molly to dinner as someone needs to learn to cook 😉
Molly we could all make excuses for not cooking but that is all it is. Its not that hard to learn to cook basic stuff as that example showed. Its fair enough to not care but its not really fair to claim you cannot [learn] or dont have the time [ you choose not to].
Yes somedays we just get something out the freezer but all things in moderation.ormondroydFree MemberI think we’re brainwashed in the UK in to sheepishly baa-ing along to the line that subsidies to farmers are bad, mmkay.
“Blah blah blah”, goes the press. “French farmers are massively subsidised”, blah blah.
Well here’s a fact: French food, ordinary food-in-the-shops food, is **** GREAT compared to the same stuff here. I’d challenge anyone to a blind taste test of, say, two supermarket tomatoes, one here, one in France. I’m confident the French tomato would win that taste test 95% of the time, and the other 5% would be people who like tomatoes that taste mainly of water.
molgripsFree MemberMolly we could all make excuses for not cooking but that is all it is. Its not that hard to learn to cook basic stuff as that example showed.
I can cook just fine. I am just trying to explain to you how some people live, that’s all. Some people have no understanding whatsoever of cooking or food, but they are under pressure to produce meals quickly, and they have no-one to help them.
Well here’s a fact: French food, ordinary food-in-the-shops food, is **** GREAT compared to the same stuff here
Part of that is climate related, to be fair.
jamj1974Full Memberneilc1881. Thanks for the first-hand perspective. Too often the voices of experts are heard second or third-hand. Interesting points too LHS.
JunkyardFree MemberI am just trying to explain to you how some people live, that’s all
I really dont get why you do this.
Part of that is climate related, to be fair.
Is this your view or just what someone else might possibly think?
anagallis_arvensisFull MemberMolgrips is right however many for example cannot grasp the basic science that may convince them that organic or non processed foods might be better for them or what different food groups do . Hell a significant part of the population couldnt read a cookbook either!
Shorty121Free MemberThis might have already been discussed by someone else but i’m not reading it all. Subsidies should be removed from the system as they create bad farming practices in NZ they removed it 20 odd years a go and all the bad farmers packed in and the good farmers flourished, they should do that here and let the bad farmers stop.
GEDAFree MemberThere are no direct subsidies for production. It is based on the land area and countryside stewardship schemes. Since this has changed many of the big estates and rich landowners have been getting this and the tennant farmer nowt. The cost of milk and food have led to many people leaving farming and the average age of farmers being about 50\60 plus.
Arla was mentioned above as one of the badies. Funnily enough it is owned by farmers in sweden and denmark.
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