I reckon there's big issues either way you look at it. I do think the unions should try living in the real world for a while, there's got to be massive savings out there, services we don't need, inefficient and downright dubious working practices etc.

On the other hand these things have been in the public sector for years, how can you unpick them all properly in 100 days without taking out some of the services that are vital and impacting on people in the public sector who are giving great value for money?

I reckon Bob Crow should think about what happened the last time Unions tried to take the government on. 😆

Seriously, I think unions have created some very unhealthy situations in the public sector. Cuts are painful, and it takes a crisis to get people to act – I doubt serious efficiency savings could be made without the heavy pressure from central government.

The head of the TUC was on the Beeb this morning saying that there was no need for any cuts at all. When pushed on his alternative solution it was the usual "tax the rich".

Just been on the news that the EU has said that the UK economy will grow strongly in the 2nd half of this year and avoid a double-dip recession.

= Conservative WIN!

When pushed on his alternative solution it was the usual "tax the rich".

That's just crazy talk. Everyone knows it's down to the poor to get us out of recession.

"tax the rich"

How do we define rich? Anyone not on benefits?

yes imagine that taxing the rich and wealthy when you can punish the poor , thos eon benefits and people who need public services. What a total idiot thank god we have privately educated, inherited titled landwoners, and millionairres to lead us out of this rather than a crackpot like Bob …I mean what does he know about ordinary people he should indeed enter stumpy Johns real world of which our decision makers are clearly fully immersed.

The response was as inevitable as Tories cutting services. Whilst you cite the economy there are still choices – Obama has not done this for example. Any historian care to name the last Tory govt NOT to cut services immediately after election? It is pre 1970.
EDIT:

How do we define rich? Anyone not on benefits

2 SD above the mean earnings? Top 16% basically I assume that is circa 75k pa.

Exactly trailmonkey.

It was the poor who got us into this mess, surely they should suffer
disproportionately to get us out? 🙄

The Tories are just using the recession as an excuse for a bit of social engineering again:
Everyone going to Uni, even poor people? They might realise that there's more to life than menial servitude – we'll soon put a top to that!
Libraries? Hotbeds of social radicalism, built on prime real estate etc etc.

What's really scary is that it's barely 25 years since this happened last time – how soon we forget.

Any historian care to name the last

time the Labour party left government without leaving a massive hole in the budget and the economy in a mess?

As I see it (coming from a highly unionised environment that the government have promised no cuts to (that'll be £12million over next 5 years then!))…

Cuts are needed. No one wants it but we're in a hole, and digging wont get us out. There are plenty of places cuts can be made, its easy for most people to see where the waste is, and anyone with any opinion can identify massive money pits (war in Afghanistan anybody?) However, its the government also have to awkward balance of trying to cut everything, without upsetting anyone (I.e voters, who are a fickle bunch, who will vote the coalition government as soon as "Their" industry/environment/lifestyle suffers.) Also, big sweeping cuts are great at saving money, but if they cut too much, it'll just be twice as much to replace things when we realise we need them, for example, we have managers that don't appear to do very much. So lets get rid of some so there is only one per department. The manager left over kicks off about doing twice the work and demands more money and probably gets it, then leaves for a different job where they can get the same money for less work. MY company then has to recruit a new manager on a higher wage than the last one to be competitive with the market and so it ends up costing more. (this is usually the NHS way IME).

So back on topic, cuts are needed, and sadly that means the public sector is going to get it, which the electorate wont like.

I'm saving up for a new house at the moment, that means no foreign holiday, we sold my car (i did get a new bike), less going out and generally cutting costs around the house. Its hard, but I can see a goal, I know that the money is adding up and I really want that new house, So why doesn't the government come out and say "here are some big cuts… e.g bin collection once a fortnight, street lights off after 3am, subsidies to bus &train companies reduced etc For 18 months. If people knew that slight hardship would end on a set day then they would hand it better IMO.

With the cuts we're experiencing, which will probably mean, work harder, rest less, rubbish kit. If they told me I have to work a bit harder for the next 6 months, but at the end of that 6 months I get a shiny new bit of kit, or a new vehicle to play with (though prefer the older ones anyway cos I'm retro) I'd be happy.

So the point of this little essay? I should probably get back to work!

Tron , good point to be fair, parties do tend to get voted out when the economy is poor but it is harder to argue they AIMED to do this deliberately. We could debate competencey to run the economy. My point is this is just normal tory practice. I assume even the most right wing person does not blame Labour for the current world recession or the 1970's oil crisis.

its easy for most people to see where the waste is

20-40, 000 coppers for example? That sort of waste?

If people knew that slight hardship would end on a set day then they would hand it better IMO

try doing all your saving and cut backs with no job.

Tron , good point to be fair, parties do tend to get voted out when the economy is poor

I'd say the pattern goes something like this:

Labour govt come in, eventually screw up the economy, get booted out.
Tories fix it.
Eventually people decide they can afford to be "nice" again.
Labour get elected again and we go back to the start.

Cuts on the scale Cameron wants are not needed, far greater than anything ever done before, far greater than any other country in the world is doing and will do enormous damage to the economy and the social fabric of the country.

The budget needs to be balanced but you do not do this by putting a million people on the dole – all that does is decrease tax receipts and increase the welfare bill.

Cuts could be done in much less damaging ways – stop the foreign adventurism, cancel the vanity project that is new nukes.

Taxation could easily be raised – we are a low tax low public spending country compared to our competitor nations. To cut instead is a political decision. There is no imperative for cuts.

Cameron with his allies in the press have created this panic about the state of the economy that is simply untrue – and is then using it to drive ideological cuts.

Remember we are a low tax, low public spending economy and no one else in the world is cutting like this.

TJ, you put far too much store in the differences between political parties. All of them tend to have spending plans within a few % of each other. They're not that different.

My personal view is that running the economy is much like managing inflation – expectancy, ie, general public opinion, is actually more important than any other factor. If the public think the books don't balance, you need to make it look like you're balancing them, because ultimately, it's consumer confidence and the propensity to spend or save that will kill or cure the economy.

Tories fix it.

Are we in fantasy land now?
The rest of you account is a reasonable description of the cycle I assume but we may as well say this matches the capitalist boom and bust cyle as they gamble with money and once confidence goes the gamblers panick and we are all fecked.
As TJ notes most of this is ideology .. he wants big cuts and then Big society to fill the void [ all very Victorian and the poor did so well then. It is a choice they are making and the burden will fall harder on the most vulnerable which is not fair. I doubt anyone will agree on this thread so enjoy
EDIT: Tron good points agian but with rising unemployment , agenda of cuts, strikes and general unrest,lower tax receipts it seems reasonable to suggest confidence in the economy wont be high . they could fund the minor growth and blance later/slower rather than risk plunging into to a recession by balancing now. These cuts are permanent not just a response to now

Hello. Yes…. is that the public sector speaking? Jolly good. We've got the real world on line 3 for you

The cuts are needed. I don't think anyone can dispute that. But I think there are too many in the Tory Party who are rubbing their hands with glee at the prospect of a return to the 'Good Old Days' when they could use their paramilitary police force to beat the working class oiks up on picket lines with impunity.

Know your place peasants

Did someone just suggest Bob Crow lives in the real world? His salary in 2009 was £133,183 plus expenses and travelling costs. This is the bloke who called a tube strike over the sacking of a London transport employee who was on long term sick due to an ankle injury but was still able to play squash (pretty sure squash is harder on ankles than driving a tube train). Bob Crow is many things, living in the same world as the rest of us is not one of them.

If he's one of the flag bearers for the general strike I can't say I'm too confident that the goals are as open and clear as they suggest.

Tron –

If the public think the books don't balance

The panic over he economy has been deliberately created by the Tories and their allies in the press to justify the cuts.

the economy needs to be rebalanced – but there are many choices of how to do this. Massive cuts is not the only option.

binners – Member

The cuts are needed. I don't think anyone can dispute that.

Of course we can. cuts on the scale proposed are certainly not needed.

Show that the cuts as proposed are needed please.

The panic over he economy has been deliberately created by the Tories and their allies in the press to justify the cuts.

I didn't realise the likes of the IMF & World Bank were in the Conservative party's pockets.

TJ. Even by your standards, you've got it on you today dear. 🙂

I didn't say 'cuts on that scale' were necessary . I just said cuts are needed. If you recall, labour were still proposing some pretty drastic cuts anyway.

I think the main motivation for the tories is political though. And the old school union idiots are rising to the bait and spoiling for a fight. They haven't got a snowball in hells chance of coming out on top here, I'm afraid

Personally i think we are all doomed haha 😆

Real wealth is generated from digging things out of the earth, farming and manufacturing.

We used to make loads of stuff, what do we make now?

We should try to encourage hi-tech manufacturing here but it doesnt seem to be happening.

The economies that will bounce back quicker are the more balanced ones and ones that still have a manufacturing component, like germany.

oh and why do the French and Spanish own significant parts of our water/energy supply industry – doh

We used to make loads of stuff, what do we make now?

We're still one of the world's leading manufacturers. It's just that everyone goes around saying "We don't make owt anymore. Disgusting." to the point that everyone believes it.

Our exports have actually fallen less and bounced back quicker than Germany's…

I still believe we will have riots on the streets before Christmas, however right or wrong the cuts may be

The head of the TUC was on the Beeb this morning saying that there was no need for any cuts at all. When pushed on his alternative solution it was the usual "tax the rich

Usual political ideology innit. That's basically the difference between left and right.

Cuts – yes. Savage slash and burn hastily planned and executed – no.

Is anyone else quite looking forward to a bit of good old-fashioned argy bargy though? We haven't had any of that for ages. We need a good old class war. Petrol bombs and all that.

Recent protests (if we discount islamic nutters) have been a real dissapointment. Bordering on being a bit gay, to be honest. Marching in silence to protest about wars. Bloody hippies!!!

We need some Poll Tax style stuff. Police batton charges. Setting fire to Macdonalds. That type of thing. The youth of today have never had the change to really enjoy this facet of life. And its the lack of this traditional outlet that has lead to the increased crime rate. I'm convinced of it

We used to make loads of stuff, what do we make now?

Satellites, aircraft bits, scientific instruments, lots of cars – and a load more stuff besides. Most of what we make is high tech.

Fair enough Binners.

What I do find interesting is from the union side they have realised they need the support of the general public and can go no further than that support will take them. Unusual one that.

This is the phoney war. After the Lib Dem conference we will see how its going to unfold. I personally think the chances of the coalition lasting 5 years is very low and hopefully this will prevent the worst of the idiocy

What we need is genuine cuts, cuts that us the public vote for,we need the council workers to actually work a full day,for management to actually manage, not just have some manager title on their door.

We could save a load by sacking all paid for union reps, if the council wants a union rep, the union pays for him/her, not the council.

Then do we need assistants, and deputy asistants to the director, of paper clip recycling etc, these jobs really do exist,paper clip recycling may not as yet.

Also the unions will scare the crap out of the poor and elderly by saying youre going to loose your care worker, free meals, transport etc, not were going to get rid of non essential overpaid empire builders,that are employed in all coucils,and governmnet depts.

CJB 1994.

marched, fought, lost, end of.

Planned Government spending over the next five years

2009-10 (Last Labour year) £669bn
2010-11 £697bn
2011-12 £700bn
2012-13 £711bn
2013-14 £722bn
2014-15 £737bn (£68bn or 10% above Labour level)

Which apparently, according to TJ, is a 25% cut!
The veracity of any claim of "cuts" is based upon assumed inflation, if the BOE can get inflation back within its 2% target (which of course wage control is a major part of!) then there is almost NO reduction in real terms spending through the course of the parliament – its all based upon an assumed inflation calculator.

As I've asked Tandem(chickenlittle)Jeremy before, and he has yet to answer: a quick reality check – if I told you that you were not going to get a payrise for the next three years, would you run around saying to all your mates in the pub that I was giving you a 12% pay cut, and if you did, would they think you were being hysterical and alarmist?

zulu – you are an offensive clown with no grasp of reality.

Cameron and Clegg have repeatedly said they are intending cuts of 25-40% in most government Depts. So they are lying are they?

Project – you cannot have cuts on the scale intended without service reductions. its simply not possible. The numbers don't add up.

Can't we just cut'n'paste a link to the previous threads going in circles around the same argument and save everyone the trouble of re-posting ?

It's like bleedin Groundhog day on here sometimes 🙄

Woody – As an alternative we could force the usual suspects to settle their differences like men. By gladatorial combat. While we all form a baying mob

epicsteve – Member
The head of the TUC was on the Beeb this morning saying that there was no need for any cuts at all. When pushed on his alternative solution it was the usual "tax the rich".

He also said more people in employment = more taxes, but that to achieve that the governemnt had to borrow more.

Excellent idea Binners.

We could charge and give the proceeds to a non-politically affilliated charity 😉

Also the unions will scare the crap out of the poor and elderly by saying youre going to loose your care worker, free meals, transport etc, not were going to get rid of non essential overpaid empire builders,that are employed in all coucils,and governmnet depts.

Probably because to some extent it's true. I guess most of the overpaid empire builders also have budgets, and when they are told to cut their budgets by 25%, are they going to make themselves redundant, or someone else beneath them?