Why would the jury in the murder trial in Aberdeen today find the defendant guilty of culpable homicide rather than murder.
It is reported and accepted by the authorities that the defendant has a history of violent attacks on other people resulting in their hospitalisation and been known to be carrying knuckledusters and knife’s at school such that the head teacher has had occasion to caution him about this.
The authorities “will be examining their procedures, to see if anything needs changed or if there is anything more they could have done”
Meanwhile someone’s child is dead because it seems we as a society are unable/unwilling to deal effectively with an obvious sociopath.

Well, they sat through all the evidence and neither of us did, though

Defence counsel ….Mr Duguid said the accused had shown “extraordinary stupidity” but suggested Bailey Gwynne had shown “recklessness” in assaulting a fellow pupil.

might be relevant?

It is reported and accepted by the authorities that the defendant has a history of violent attacks on other people resulting in their hospitalisation and been known to be carrying knuckledusters and knife’s at school such that the head teacher has had occasion to caution him about this.

[u]guessing[/u] that was not admissible before the verdict

Defence counsel ….Mr Duguid said the accused had shown “extraordinary stupidity” but suggested Bailey Gwynne had shown “recklessness” in assaulting a fellow pupil.

might also be relevant

Aw’come on, gie’s a break.

Not convinced that it quite deserves a murder conviction. Sounds like he was attacked, and fought back with a knife. Quite a close call though I’d have thought.

I say yes murder, if you’re carrying a knife surely you are anticipating using it therefore it would seem to me to be premeditated or a considered option.

Or anticipating needing to use it if you’re surrounded by, I believe the local vernacular is “bawheeds.” You know, people likely to attack someone known to be carrying weaponry.

Dunno, I know very little about the case beyond the snippet I heard on the radio today, so it’s very difficult to pass comment.

My own gut feeling is that that’s about right to be honest.

However the defence of “he started it” – in normal circumstances, both would have got detention and some bruises.. when one is carrying a weapon and uses it, the game’s a bogey..

pretty awful all round though.

I say yes murder, if you’re carrying a knife surely you are anticipating using it therefore it would seem to me to be premeditated or a considered option.

Expecting you might use the knife and intending to use it are different things. Using the knife and intending to kill someone with it are different things too. Death being the result of someones actions isn’t necessarily murder.

Its a pity these distinctions are too subtle for so many people – we have murder on the news, in the papers, dramas, novels, films and theatre pretty much daily – our culture is soaked in it – and yet it seems to be a struggle for many people to understand what is murder and what isn’t.

Although not for the killer in this case, since he researched the difference(s) between murder and culpable homicide before he went to school with a knife.

But searching the Internet doesn’t mean you’re going to use that knowledge or it even is related to events down the line.
The story sounds not as straight forward as “chib, you’re dead”.

How many cautions for carrying offensive weapons in school should a kid have before getting searched every day at the door?

I can see how there was no intention and therefore not murder though.

Scots Law requires either intent or significant recklessness for it to be murder.

Culpable homicide is where the death was through wrongful conduct, but without intent to kill or sufficient recklessness.

He can beat people up all he wants, if he doesn’t intend to actually kill them then it isn’t murder. As posters above have highlighted, the fact that he was attacked may have mitigated against murder some.

How many cautions for carrying offensive weapons in school should a kid have before getting searched every day at the door?

I’m amazed he wasn’t booted out permanently after the first time.

Scots Law requires either intent or significant recklessness for it to be murder.

I’d have thought carrying a knife to school then using it in a minor fight was significantly reckless – but don’t know the legal definition.

I’m amazed he wasn’t booted out permanently after the first time.

Good luck with that.

We have an S6 boy who assaulted two female staff at the xmas dance. Not only is he still in school,we have been threatened with a disciplinary if we even discuss it.

The killer would have appeared to carry a knife frequently to school.Witnesses including a teacher, described him as in a headlock and being smacked against the lockers when he stabbed him. A tragic case and probably the right verdict. The killer wasn’t some ned fighting every weekend,he was (by the little press on him) a loner who struggled to cope with the not unchallenging place that is a large secondary school.

Good luck with that.

We have an S6 boy who assaulted two female staff at the xmas dance. Not only is he still in school,we have been threatened with a disciplinary if we even discuss it.

My wife is a teacher and I’m 100% sure her school (and her previous one) would have booted out any kid that brought knives etc. to school.

The killer wasn’t some ned fighting every weekend,he was (by the little press on him) a loner who struggled to cope with the not unchallenging place that is a large secondary school.

The killer had a history of violent assaults on other kids going right back to primary school.

In my day we all carried knives to school. And openly used them to sharpen our pencils.

The death rate was zero… 🙂

It’s the bawheids and bullies who need controlling, not objects.

In my day we all carried knives to school. And openly used them to sharpen our pencils.

The death rate was zero…

It’s the bawheids and bullies who need controlling, not objects.

https://home.nra.org

I’m sure bawheids and bullies weren’t unheard of then…
Can’t recall the knife carrying proportion when I was at school, but there sure were plenty of bullies 🙁

The lad who killed Bailey is well known locally as is his family… and not for handing out flowers or helping old ladies cross the street. It seems as though Aberdeen City have agreed to look at circumstances around Bailey’s murder – let’s see what comes of that!

I’d have thought carrying a knife to school then using it in a minor fight was significantly reckless – but don’t know the legal definition.

Carrying a knife would be aggravating, but the recklessness required is more like indifference to the consequences of your actions. Carrying a knife in your bag isn’t directly going to get someone killed but, (random example) ignoring H&S regs might.

This guy is a twunt and deserves what he gets but, from what has been reported, it does appear he got convicted of the correct offence. Whether significant action should have been taken against him earlier is a different question.

From the meagre press reports I’ve read it did sound like excessive self-defence and so the right verdict – but I didn’t actually hear any of the evidence. So let’s assume he intended to kill him…

…what would convicting him of murder have actually achieved?

“The killer had a history of violent assaults on other kids going right back to primary school.”

I can only find one, where he used a rock in a fight. Even the Mail describes it as “used a rock on another pupil during a fight.” You used plural,any more?

indeed sparks – charming bunch aren’t they.

..what would convicting him of murder have actually achieved?

This …. i was all up for him getting the murder conviction to make an example and deter other kids from doing the same – what with my mrs being a teacher in the city.

How ever i reckon any custodial sentence which comes with the culpible homicide charge will be enough.

The kid doesnt have the stigma of murderer on his resume for the rest of his life – he just has to live with the demons….

Kinda have to agree with trail_rat re sentencing.

But to those suggesting excessive self defense – sorry can’t buy that. It looks far too intentional when you hear more of what went on/what both lads where like.

and deter other kids from doing the same

This seems to be a big concern within the community and that knives are carried by kids on a regular basis. How true that is I’ve no idea.

I’ve not heard a lot about it but I picked up that the lad murdered was definitely starting the fight by being abusive and the defendant had been carrying weapons because of lack of self esteem and trying to feel ‘big’ (not because he was simply a brute)..tragic end result..