Viewing 40 posts - 41 through 80 (of 81 total)
  • critical mass
  • ourmaninthenorth
    Full Member

    The whole City vehicle and non vehicle users is about the smaller guy ( in this case the unprotected cyclist vias the two ton car) being heard being seen and being valued

    No it isn’t. That assumes that (a) we all have to fight each other, and (b) that I am unable to make myself sufficiently seen, heard and valued when on the roads. Training for cyclists would do a much better job of that.

    This also assumes that the rights of cyclists who ride 10 miles to work in the dark along busy A roads from their small village are somehow less valuable than those who ride around towns and cities.

    If Critical Mass as a concept is to serve any purpose, then it needs to drop the political angle. In this country, unfortunately that is entrenched, as a reult of the confrontation between CM and the Met over the concept of organised protests. Now, from an ideological point of view, I agree with the stance taken. But that moved it away from a transport issue into one of a continuing right to protest.

    Yeasr ago, my mother was involved in the animal rights movement. She’s pretty moderate, but she did come into contact with those who were less so. Her view was that they were simply hijacking the original purpose – a moral, ethical stance – and turning it into an anti-establishment political stance. CM has ended up here, and as such its usefulness at demonstrating an alternative to the car has ended.

    I maintain that the true critical mass is simply shown in the increasing number of individuals riding bikes. They do it for utilitarian* means, but the net effect is one of more bikes on the road and a necessary requirement for those still in cars to change their behaviour. Driver behaviour will not change over night, but will gradually alter as the road user profile changes away from such a dominance of car driving.

    So, don’t give me “it’s the only way for the little guy to fight” bollex. CM is just an excuse now for an easy protest without having to believe in much more than protest itself. Not good enough.

    *As in JS Mill.

    coffeeking
    Free Member

    Utter, utter bollocks. I’m talking about London, here; the percentage of journeys made by car, in the centre, compared to all other forms of transport, is very small.

    You might be talking about london (as usual), but the rest of us were talking about any large town or city. Regardless, the point was that THE VAST MAJORITY OF PEOPLE ARE CAR DRIVERS. This is true, regardless of where they are.

    Typical ‘oh but I’m special, I need my car’ bollocks. I can carry more than that on my bike. A friend is a lawyer, and carries exactly that amount, on a bike. Bullshit argument.

    Just because you can, as a fit, healthy and capable person doesnt mean everyone can, or indeed should. A) There are many people for whome the change to cycling would simply be impossible, or take too long to reach a sensible level of fitness. B) There is personal choice involved, just because you think its right that everyone should be cycling doesnt mean it IS right. If the percentage of road users were so small, as you have suggested above, there woudl be no congestion charge requirements and there would be no traffic problem in London. Add to that the figure you were (I think it was you) bandying about the other day – 6 or so million entering the capital each day to work – a very large percentage of which are outside “sensible” bike commuting distances. In other cities, such as liverpool, the city is spread out over a large area, people often live a LONG way from where they work. I used to commute 34 miles a day on a bike, but it took a LOT of doing and serious fitness, and a LOT of time out of my day, to assume your average car-driving merchant banker (which you’re so proud of being the mainstay of the UK economy) could do the same is utter tripe.

    I’m not interested in a ‘positive attitude’, until car drivers stop being so selfish. Asking nicely doesn’t work with ignorant, selfish people. They don’t care. So, force them off the road, I say.

    Prepare to live a reduced and bitter life then, because all you’ll do by getting in the way is increase hatred of bikes and cyclists. Well done.

    RudeBoy
    Free Member

    I don’t do very many, actually. I don’t even ride my bike every day.

    I knew my vehement response would get some of you going (s’why I did it!). And some of my best friends are Car Drivers, before I get accused of being car-o-phobic or something…

    Most journeys I make by bike are made slower, due to the amount of cars. Most journeys I make are quicker than a car. When I can’t/don’t want to use the bike, I can take the bus/tube/train etc.

    There are too many cars on the road-FACT.

    There is too much pollution caused by cars- FACT.

    There are too many people killed by selfish and careless drivers -FACT.

    something’s gotta be done, and as I pointed out earlier, asking nicely falls on deaf ears.

    Most people don’t really need a car- FACT.

    So, what other ways would you suggest, to change people’s attitudes toward unnecessary car journeys?

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    RudeBoy
    Free Member

    THE VAST MAJORITY OF PEOPLE ARE CAR DRIVERS.

    Back that up with some stats. The population of Britain is 56 million. Prove there are more than 28 million drivers.

    Bearing in mind that there are many who hold licences, but never drive, I suspect you won’t find this one easy…

    miketually
    Free Member

    So, what other ways would you suggest, to change people’s attitudes toward unnecessary car journeys?

    That’s the problem.

    Encouraging people to use other means through advertising and building new UK-style infrastructure doesn’t seem to be working.

    Actively discouraging car use seem to be the only way forward, but there’s no political will to do this in the UK.

    hilldodger
    Free Member

    Well said Fred, people who drive cars in large cities deserve all the derision and flack possible.
    Cars are for long journeys on large car biased carriageways, not on inner city roads originally designed around the horse and cart.

    Just like mopeds, horses and bicycles are banned from motorway use perhaps large motor vehicles should be banned from single lane inner city roads ???

    ourmaninthenorth
    Full Member

    Most journeys I make by bike are made slower, due to the amount of cars. Most journeys I make are quicker than a car. When I can’t/don’t want to use the bike, I can take the bus/tube/train etc.

    And soi, Fred, all you really wish to do, is travel at a pace and in a manner which suits you. It’s not really about anyone else, is it? It’s about your convenience.

    Which is pretty typical of THE VAST MAJORITY OF PEOPLE.

    Sheesh.

    MrK
    Free Member

    did anyone see the critical mass documentary? it documented the birth of it, back in some US city. the idea back then was to not instigate a ‘go slow’ but to cruise along at a fair lick to show the benefits. i saw the said film at the cinema and there was a q+a at the end – a middle aged lady could not see any reason to participate unless it is to go incredibly slowly and make motorists angry. it was quite sad and more than a little worrying

    coffeeking
    Free Member

    Most journeys I make by bike are made slower, due to the amount of cars. Most journeys I make are quicker than a car. When I can’t/don’t want to use the bike, I can take the bus/tube/train etc.

    Most journeys I make on my bike could be done faster in a car. Most journeys I drive I get held up by a cyclist at least once. If I dont want to use the bike I have to drive as there’s no public transport that is usable where I live. The rest of the country (TM) is different from the big smoke.

    There are too many cars on the road-FACT.

    In cities, maybe.

    There is too much pollution caused by cars- FACT.

    You could argue there’s too much polution full stop. I hope you never take a plane abroad, dont heat your home (its not necessary after all, just comfortable) and never use a TV – what a waste of power.

    There are too many people killed by selfish and careless drivers -FACT.

    Getting boring now, any number killed by any means isnt good. There are too many killed by cyclists too…

    something’s gotta be done, and as I pointed out earlier, asking nicely falls on deaf ears.

    Only if you ask in the wrong way. Shouting falls on a fist coming the other way.

    Most people don’t really need a car- FACT.

    I cant speak for most people, but no-one I know could do without a car, without changing their entire lifestyle,house location,choice of hobbies etc and becoming a hermit sitting outside their workplace and food source, the local supermarket.

    So, what other ways would you suggest, to change people’s attitudes toward unnecessary car journeys?

    By slow integration of cycling through schemes such as cycle to work, giving incentives to cycle rather than ride if possible etc. This works, at my last place of work we took the number of city commuter cyclists from 2.5% to over 5%, much higher than national average for businesses. Change takes time, you cant be a revolutionary cyclist and force it overnight by being offensive on the road, that just makes YOU the tw*t.

    Bearing in mind that there are many who hold licences, but never drive, I suspect you won’t find this one easy…

    Anyone who drives, however rarely, is a driver and is able to see how frustrating a millitant cyclist can be. It was never question of numbers, it was a question of experience and sense.

    coffeeking
    Free Member

    Back that up with some stats. The population of Britain is 56 million. Prove there are more than 28 million drivers.

    And, in your tactics, prove I’m wrong. You’re coming at it from the view of a city dweller in the capital, a place with a well established and renowned public transport network, reaching in all directions. For once, think about it from other peoples shoes…

    thomthumb
    Free Member

    Personally i think the problem with CM is not the message but the fact that it does not get through. There are a lot of motorists sat in cars thinking why the hell are these cyclists blocking up the town, or they may not even know it is cyclists.

    coffeeking
    Free Member

    oldcodger – I have lived (off and on) and worked in cities for the past 9 years. I’m just capable of seeing both sides of a story. Grow up.

    And, Rudeboy, as you said in a previous thread:

    you (and others) have made your minds up that it’s ‘cr4p'[all drivers in cities are idiots and cyclists should be millitant], etc, so there’s no point me wasting my time trying to explain things to you.

    RudeBoy
    Free Member

    Coffeeking; We’re talking about Critical mass, here. something that is staged in large cities, which London is one of. i am not commenting on car use outside of London, or outside any large city. I am talking about car use IN a large city, FFS. MOST of which is UNNECESSARY.

    Right.

    There are approx 33 million vehicles on the road in Britain.

    26 million of those are CARS. So, simple maths: 56/26= 46%, approx. NOT a VAST MAJORITY.

    Ok so.

    A far smaller proportion of people in London own or drive a car. A big chunk of cars in London are people coming in from the suburbs and Home counties.

    Whilst I appreciate there are many people who do need cars, such as those with disabilities, people who need to transport special equipment, like doctors, etc., there are many who simply don’t, and it’s their selfish behaviour that affects everybody else.

    The car is a quick and convenient form of transport, but the reality is, for most people, it’s a luxury item, like a telly or iPod. There is a perceived status to car ownership, which does not help matters at all.

    I’m not for ridding ALL cars from city streets, but a 50% reduction would be **** amazing, in the impact that would have on congestion, pollution and the overall quality of life of all urban residents.

    Blah blah I’m sure those with intelligence can work out the rest.

    And the whole point of CM, is to say ‘look, we’re here on bikes, deal with it’, NOT ‘**** all drivers’. That’s just a radical minority, and me. I suspect quite a few peopleon here have never been on a CM. I have, and I’ve seen people having a go at others, for deliberately pissing off car drivers, as that’s not the intention.

    If a tractor is driving along a tight country lane, and you’re stuck behind it, you just have to wait. No point getting steamed up about it, it won’t get you along any quicker. Same with CM. Just that people in cars often seem to have the attitude of ‘get out of my way I’m more important than you’.

    Oh, I have all sorts of anger management issues anyway, and love a good confrontation.

    I’m quite nice, most of the time, though.

    miketually
    Free Member

    26 million of those are CARS. So, simple maths: 56/26= 46%, approx. NOT a VAST MAJORITY.

    My parents have one car. Both of them are drivers.

    coffeeking
    Free Member

    Coffeeking; We’re talking about Critical mass, here. something that is staged in large cities, which London is one of. i am not commenting on car use outside of London, or outside any large city. I am talking about car use IN a large city, FFS. MOST of which is UNNECESSARY.

    CM has been held in all the cities I have lived/worked in. Most of which are not clogged with traffic.

    26 million of those are CARS. So, simple maths: 56/26= 46%, approx. NOT a VAST MAJORITY.

    Slightly shit maths there, since MANY people share cars with their other half. You cant base the number of drivers on teh number of cars. And if you read my post you’d see my point was not that there were set numbers of cars, but that everyoen knows the experience of driving and wouldnt want to be held up by a moron on a bike for no reason. Please read posts before replying.

    A far smaller proportion of people in London own or drive a car. A big chunk of cars in London are people coming in from the suburbs and Home counties.

    Obviously, these are the people that you claim make london great, and the centre of our economy etc. Do you really expect those 6-7 million to come in on public transport or bikes? I mean you’d have to what, double, maybe more the number of buses, taxis (still cars) and trains/underground to cope, AND make new/bigger links.

    Whilst I appreciate there are many people who do need cars, such as those with disabilities, people who need to transport special equipment, like doctors, etc., there are many who simply don’t, and it’s their selfish behaviour that affects everybody else.

    And it’s your selfish behaviour that affects other cyclists! Some people drive in because they have multiple places to visit on the way home, shopping to collect etc, while living 10 miles from the city and not near a public transport link. Not all cities are the same as London, you cant widely condemn all (city or otherwise) drivers as selfish based on London.

    I’m not for ridding ALL cars from city streets, but a 50% reduction would be **** amazing, in the impact that would have on congestion, pollution and the overall quality of life of all urban residents.

    I agree, removing some of the cars would be great. But who chooses who gets to stay and who doesn’t? As an urban resident, claiming all the virtues of a city and how you love it so much, you really cant complain when people drive through cities – cities are nothing more than road networks between densely packed businesses, surrounded by homes. You chose to have a home there?

    And the whole point of CM, is to say ‘look, we’re here on bikes, deal with it’, NOT ‘**** all drivers’. That’s just a radical minority, and me.

    If it had stuck to its original aim, and were delivering it, it would be fine. What it has become, and you, stand for something which is a pointless waste of time that will hurt “the cause”.

    If a tractor is driving along a tight country lane, and you’re stuck behind it, you just have to wait. No point getting steamed up about it, it won’t get you along any quicker. Same with CM. Just that people in cars often seem to have the attitude of ‘get out of my way I’m more important than you’.

    Nope, you’re missing the point. The tractor driver is going about his business making a living, not out to prove that his tractor should be on the road and you shouldn’t, and he is not trying to prove some moral high ground. That is why we give them time and space.

    You can clearly see the affect CM is having by recent news reports, I’ll try to drag up the links tonight, where people are seeing cyclists as green activists now and disliking all cyclists as they assume they’re trying to claim a moral high ground and are better than others. Thsi is the start of the backlash.

    Oh, I have all sorts of anger management issues anyway, and love a good confrontation.

    I’m quite nice, most of the time, though.

    🙂 Me too, hence I get into massive posts on here WITH YOU more often than not! I too swear and curse at drivers who dont give me room when I’m going about my commute. I also swear and curse at cyclists who run reds and cause havoc on the road through lack of road sense. As part of each I see both sides. As part of each I try to find a fair solution.

    RudeBoy
    Free Member

    Still not a VAST MAJORITY.

    That would be 70% or something.

    Neither of my parents drive. I don’t drive. So the VAST MAJORITY of my family don’t drive! In’t statistics lovely?

    I do want to learn to drive, as it’s a useful skill to possess. And i’d be able to drive out to places some of you lot live in, and give you grief out on the trails…

    But I wouldn’t drive about in London. No point. Need a motor occasionally? Hire one.

    Example: t’other week, I was coming back from my swim. About 1/2 a mile from my home, I saw a (fayt) woman get in a car. I got back to my house, taking a slightly different route from the road, and she was pulling up, to go into a friend’s house.

    HALF A **** MILE. If she walked those sort of distances, she wouldn’t be so fayt. BTW, no disabled badge in car, and she seemed to move perfectly ok. Just **** lazy.

    It’s that sort of attitude that I hate. That, and the ‘oh I’m too good for public transport’ selfishness.

    GRRRRR!!!

    I need a cuppa. Can someone run down to the shop to get some milk for me? It’s only downstairs.Ta.

    coffeeking
    Free Member

    It’s that sort of attitude that I hate.

    Me too.

    That, and the ‘oh I’m too good for public transport’ selfishness.

    I just cant stand public transport, I hate being in close proximity with random people. Though not a scientific test I know, I spent the last 9 years commuting great distances on public transport and in cars. The years where I had to use PT I was ill more often than I was well, I had two instances of people losing control of their bowels and bladder on teh seat in front of me, I had countless fights break out around me. No ta.

    Coffee needed, I’m off! Good day to you all!

    RudeBoy
    Free Member

    I agree, removing some of the cars would be great. But who chooses who gets to stay and who doesn’t?

    I should!

    ‘No, don’t like your face; sorry, no car for you. NEXT. No, too fayt; you can’t have a car unless you lose 3 stone. NEXT. No, you’re a Chelsea fan; lifetime ban. NEXT. You have 4 kids? Well, is that my fault? Sell a couple. Denied. NEXT. you live in the country? Then grow some potatoes or something instead. Not even a tractor. NEXT…’

    Ah, I can but dream….

    RudeBoy
    Free Member

    I just cant stand public transport, I hate being in close proximity with random people

    ??????? What a snob!!!

    You’d never drive again, under my regime. And you’d be sentenced to traveling on Public Transport for all eternity!!!!

    Well, RudeBoy, that went quite well, I thought. You were far more reasonable and restrained than normal. Well done!

    Gibber.

    coffeeking
    Free Member

    ??????? What a snob!!!

    Its not snobbish, well maybe a little, but generally I just dont like people. I hate neighbours because they all make a racket and are unthoughtful etc. I like being with the people I choose, or alone – not forced into places with other people. Not in a “ooh im scared of the public” sort of way, just in a “God I hate having to sit scrunched up while 4 people push past you, 3 sneeze on you” sort of way. Oh and the fact that public transport has never yet, IME, been cheaper than driving, or faster point to point, until I met the Glasgow subway – now that is fast and frequent enough to be acceptably empty.

    Ah well, (sip)…mmmmmm, on with work…

    I cant spell either it seems, hence many edits

    theboatman
    Free Member

    Because you never win anything by going on the offensive and forcing yourself on the majority, you just become a target for abuse.

    Good job the Gay Pride movement never followed that piece of advice.

    duckman
    Full Member

    I think you should learn to drive rudeboy, after all that white van is just cluttering up your drive.

    MrAgreeable
    Full Member

    In answer to the OP (finally) – yes there is a Bristol Critical Mass. I’ve never been on it though.

    coffeeking
    Free Member

    Good job the Gay Pride movement never followed that piece of advice

    No comment. Talk about comparing apples and oranges.

    coffeeking
    Free Member

    And for whoever wrote the tag, I’ve not missed any point, I just have a different point of view 🙂

    RudeBoy
    Free Member

    I’d be merciless…

    ‘GET AHT OF MY FAHKIN’ WAY, YOU FAAAHKIN’ CAAAAHHHNT!!!’

    ‘All right darlin’; d’you want some or what?’

    ‘Cor, look at the arse on THAYT!’

    ‘Send ’em back ‘ome!’

    ‘Where d’you faahkin’ learn to drive? Faahkin’ Bongo-Bongo Laynd?’

    Etc. Continued gratuitous stereotyping of White Vayn Mayn…

    acjim
    Free Member

    Rudeboy: what’s with the additional y in some of your words?

    White Vayn Mayn

    My experience of London CM from a riders pov was pretty negative, we bumbled around really slowly, clogged up a roundabout and looked like dicks – the end.

    Far better to cajole than to act up – why not have a tax benefit to not driving, a direct payment which would show up on your payslip at the end of the month or week. Obviously this would need administration, but incentives have been shown in a few studies to be the most effective way to get people to consider changing their mode of transport. A pound a day to leave your car at home!

    RudeBoy
    Free Member

    ‘Vayn’. S’proper way to say ‘van’. Try it; you might like it!

    miketually
    Free Member

    ‘Vayn’. S’proper way to say ‘van’. Try it; you might like it!

    I always read it as “Va Yan” – like Penelope Pitstop shouting for “Hey Elp”.

    RudeBoy
    Free Member

    Well that’s just silly.

    How utterly ridiculous.

    miketually
    Free Member

    So, is vain, pronounced like vain, to rhyme with train?

    BigDummy
    Free Member

    I have a £6.20 a day incentive to let someone else have my place on the train…

    😉

    RudeBoy
    Free Member

    No no no. 😯

    Somewhere between ‘van’ and ‘vain’. VAYN.

    miketually
    Free Member

    I have a £6.20 a day incentive to let someone else have my place on the train…

    I have a several thousand pound incentive to not learn to drive and buy a car.

    uplink
    Free Member

    I could have an extra £2k/yr not to have a fully financed car

    nah …….. I’ll keep the car

    acjim
    Free Member

    I think the issues this country has with saving and spending indicate how poorly alot of people rationalise savings over payments. Receiving a payment is rewarding to most, not spending the money in the first place is rewarding to only a few.

    RudeBoy
    Free Member

    It’s not so much car ownership that is the problem, just selfish and needless use of them.

    gohan
    Free Member

    right im not going to lie, i have not read all 77 reply’s, but was there an answer to my question?

    uplink
    Free Member

    right im not going to lie, i have not read all 77 reply’s, but was there an answer to my question?

    about a dozen replies up – Mr Agreeable

    gohan
    Free Member

    thank you Mr Agreeable!

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