So the theme I’m seeing here is that most want CRC prices and free info from a LBS with experienced staff.

There’s no need for free information from bike shops now the internet exists. Only times I’ve ever taken advice from bike shops, they were idiots and were wrong (about part compatibility and things like that), and I had to find the correct advice on the internet.

I bought some forks from a shop who advertise on here. They’re pretty big, but would still be called a local bike shop by most. The employee I was talking to (on the phone) was a keen cyclist and we had a good chat – the kind of chat that you get from a good LBS – but when I asked about bringing something in for repair he said (I’m paraphrasing) “I wouldn’t trust most of our mechanics”.

I’ve been sold the wrong brake pads TWICE from another LBS (which wasn’t that local).

I tried to give my LBS my business for a new pair of wheels, but he was £100 more than quite a few online retailers.

If you’re lucky enough to get a good discount and great service at your LBS, then lucky you, go and use them. If not, there’s plenty of sites like CRC and plenty of resource on places like this where you can learn how to maintain these pretty simple mechanical devices called bikes.

I hardly ever buy in bike shops any more, unless it’s stuff like tubes and oil where I’m don’t mind paying a quid extra for the convenience. I wouldn’t even mind paying a premium to buy local, but currently that premium is too high. My LBS uses CRC as a supplier because – I presume – he can’t buy cheaper on some stuff.

However there will ALWAYS be jobs that I either can’t carry out or don’t have the (expensive) tools for and I’m glad the LBS shop will be able to help me and I’m happy to pay for that service. The two models can work hand in hand.

Im just not buying into this cute & cuddly idea of ownly using your LBS – bottom line why should I pay more for a product when I can get it somewhere else then get my LBS to fit it? Some on here seem to think that life owes them a living..

As has already been stated “customer service is where its at” & I dont really expect too much from an online shop other than for it to be professional & courteous. If I want a cup of tea & a biscuit & to talk bike related b8llox Ill head down to my LBS – they get plenty of work from me & the owner doesnt think twice about my buying parts from CRC & his shop then fitting them.

I stopped taking ‘advice’ from bikeshops in circa 2002.

Alot of it is utter bollocks. I’ve lost count on the amount of times I’ve been told my (now 10yr old) XTR rear mech ‘needs replacing’.

The majority of the advice given in bikeshops is geared towards new kit.

Oh and the 10p cup of tea/coffee you are offered to ‘good customers’ who may then spend thousands in a year with the shop as they feel ‘kinship’.

hora – really – inefficiency and lack of investment. I’ll take you on a tour if you wish sometime. The only way to get prices down to Merlin and CRC levels is to buy OEM kit (we’ve had a good few suspension forks in from online retailers, whose warranty has miraculously disappeared. We have called the distributors and they won’t do anything about them because of removed serial numbers or serial numbers that denote they shouldn’t be in the UK). Scary and I’m not prepared to do it.

The whole trade needs a shake-up. I sold a Yeti ASR-5 frame to someone for very little. I explained at the time that the headset was free as we did not have a reducer crown race as we had had tapered forks on it. I phoned the supplier, emailed, phoned the works. I was told I did not have an account with them (I had only bought around £1.5K of parts from them before but still enough to realise, surely?). I battled and battled to get this part and still did not succeed. The guy tried another local bike shop (he asked permission from me first!) and they had similar problems.

The amount of times I have had to battle with distributors to buy parts is phenomenal.

With regard to not investing, we have invested big time. Inefficiencies are set down by the trade in general but I have found ways round them some of the time. Business brain – I would never flatter myself and say I’m better than I am but I have had an okay career and run my own company from 2004.

but for an average person who is trying to make the switch from car dependency to some level of bike use and enjoyment, a Hope brake set delivered five pounds cheaper is just a complex artefact as incomprehensible as an Anglo-Saxon post hole diagram

Except it’s not. That’s just the point about the internet. After a quick google search you can find free, clear, step by step instructions, with pictures and, increasingly, video, of almost anything you could want to do to a bicycle.

And I stand by the opinion that bicycles give freedom from garage and bicycle type people fleecing the ignorant. Bicycles are so simple, that they empower people in all sorts of ways. It is a fairly recent thing that ordinary people expect not to have to fix their own things, understand their own “tools”.

My neighbor has taken it one step further

It is a fairly recent thing that ordinary people expect not to have to fix their own things, understand their own “tools”

+1

Go back to my old man’s era and kids were buying frames, building up their own bikes and blinkin’ well maintaining them too. Granted the rise of suspension makes it a bit more complicated, but we have dedicated suspension servicing centres for those who don’t want to have-a-go themselves.

lebowski – life does not owe me a living. However, if everyone buys from the Internet then pay a few quid (or nothing as has been suggested) for the bike shop to fit the part then how long do you think this practice will continue?

I buy from a butcher because they’re local, have better advice and have local meat, not water injected bacon from Denmark or Holland, where they’ve been feeding their pigs cr4p. If I buy from a supermarket all the time, I will effectively ensure that my choice in the future diminishes, i.e. no choice.

I don’t hate CRC or anything like that – good luck to them, they’ve taken risks and they’ve found a niche and done well in it. Watch what happens in the future though – coupled with Hotlines and them now taking exclusive CRC bike brands, you’ll see some big changes. I believe as early as next year. Nothing wrong with them as a company though – customers are funding them so right not make the next step?!

I speak what I see.

we’ve had a good few suspension forks in from online retailers, whose warranty has miraculously disappeared

Customers still have rights though so I don’t see an issue.

I’ve bought a fair few forks in my time. None have been missing serial numbers.

If its OE kit I know the (online) retailer will have to front/deal with any issues.

I don’t have a vast amount of money so cash talks. I’d love to see a shake up of the industry with price becoming more competitive.

I’ve bought a fair few forks in my time

😆

Careful Hora, my keyboard doesn’t work with tea spluttered all over it

Question to bikeshop owners. I doubt you’ll buy all your goods locally. You’ll buy the best on the best price available yourselves.

I have a feeling Skyline GTR could be the owner of my LBS??
A reason why my LBS is avoided …

CRC have always been fantastic for me. Any query on compatability is only an email away. Fast service, very often cheapest prices ..
That said. My purchases since Xmas have not been from CRC.
Browsing the internet has shown cheaper options from both Wiggle, Merlin & on-one.

So even the great CRC has competition …. and luckily for them not a Skyline GTR

Well Hora, you’ll get your shakeup. But when you or someone else comes in and actually want to buy a Rockshox fork from me and then state what they can buy it for on the Internet, do I turn them away telling them honestly that I’m losing £150 if I sell it to them or do I just cut my losses and help my cashflow? I’ve got no business sense, so I really need to know.

I’m only quoting what I have experienced, I’m not saying it’s the same everywhere. Sometimes we win – we had a guy take out our Cube Fritzz demo bike over and over again because his forks were kapputt from day one and the online retailer didn’t do anything about it for over two months.

I’ve got loads of customers who are incredibly loyal and only spend with us, we have some who spend on the internet and with us and we have some who are disgruntled because they get to try out our bikes and kit and then without speaking to us first, run off and buy them on the Internet. We doubtlessly have many others who never come in at all because my chat is dire.

We try but we cannot please everyone.

hora – I cannot buy locally unfortunately. Price has something to do with it but I also buy from the rep who offers me the best service. For example, I can buy Shimano cheaper elsewhere but I buy from the guy who always answers his phone to me and gives me advice and pops in the shop to help us out from time to time. Would it not be poor of me to then buy from his competitors after using him?

Glad you said that – because this is exactly the same scenario as customers with local bike shops and online retailers.

flyfox, like many people I don’t have a huge wage.

My utility bills have gone up. I can’t afford to keep a bike shop open. I drive a shitty-car.

I do rate the customer service and mechanical ability of my local Evans though.

Good point. Me neither. Off to Tesco for me.

Skyline-GTR – Member
So the theme I’m seeing here is that most want CRC prices and free info from a LBS with experienced staff.

There will always be people who do that and TBH I think it’s crap. Most people I know buy most of their stuff online but if they need to try it first or see it or just need it right away then they at least try and buy local – eg I recently went to my LBS to look at Spesh helmets to see how they fitted – as it turned out, it didn’t suit me but if it had, I’d have bought it there.

But if the LBS follow the CRC business model and start to charge for information, they’re the bad guys!
They’ve had to pay for staff training and staff wages while they gain the experience to be able to give the service and advice you expect from a LBS. And it’s run by like minded people that actually ride in your local area, so they are best placed to give you the best advice.

Well, yes though IME LBS staff aren’t always the paragons of good information you suggest. Like everything, there are good and bad. Again, some will always take the proverbial but if you can treat customers well and build a relationship with them then they’re more likely to buy from you even if it costs a bit more.

They have families to support too you know!

Sorry, irrelevant when talking business…

And the worst kind of customer is the one that “knows how to fit everything” but comes into the LBS saying ” I fitted this last week but it doesn’t work.”
You’d like to say, “That’s because you fitted it wrong you ****.” But profesional etiquette dictates that you don’t.

Professional dealing means that you tell the customer that they cocked it up in a polite way and if they want a replacement you maybe do a deal. Sure, some will never come back but since they’re the ‘worst kind’ you won’t miss them, will you? The more sensible will be relieved that they don’t have to pay out full price again for a replacement and will be leaving having had a positive experience.

MTB’s are technical sports equipment. You don’t re-string your tennis raquet or custom fit your own golf clubs, you get a professional to do it for you. They can’t do this “online” that’s where the personal service comes in.
As a former golf pro that defected to MTB I find it incredible that riders feel they are better than the pros at choosing and building the right equipment for their needs. This doesn’t happen in any other sport.

Maybe because there’s so much BS out there at LBS level – mtb tech is quite complex in some areas and most LBS staff don’t really understand it beyond the magazine type stereotypes – eg steel is springy, alu is harsh and so on. I’ve heard so much of this over the years even from good shops and from good mechanics. The facts that I see are that shops don’t always know best. Not by a long shot.

The difference between a pro and amateur golfer is 25% talent 75% practice.
I feel the same applies to cycle industry professionals.
The good guys work at this stuff for years before you see them. They will make you look poor by comparison in a head to head.

Some people no doubt but your generalisation about your customers is exactly the sort of attitude that makes people less keen to make the effort (because it often is) to go local rather than online. Plus, plenty of shops think it acceptable to let loose the saturday boy with next to no training and no support from more experienced staff on the basis that they like bikes or are good at riding them. This doesn’t exactly match up with your comments about it taking several years to deliver good service.

So don’t expect your LBS to give you free advice and loan you tools or bail you out when you cock it up, ask CRC.

D’oh, they don’t have knowledgable staff in your area.

The choice is yours.

That’s just stupid. Again, there will always be unreasonable customers who expect unreasonable things but to characterise the majority who shop online in that way is once again making the case against shopping local.

There will always be a demand for LBSs with helpful, non-patronising staff who are knowledgeable (real knowledge, not as I mentioned above) and provide good service and build relationships with their customers. What will go out of business is the types of shops who think they’re owed a living and who believe that their customers should be thankful that they’re willing to give up their time to sell things to them.

Good point. Me neither. Off to Tesco for me.

Have some pride man! Off to Sainsbury’s at least 😉

Brake pads needed before I go on holliday next weekend – LBS £17.50 each, thats £35 a set!

Chain lube, tubes, etc – the other LBS that does shop rides as invariabley thats when I need it.

No specific bikey bits – hardware shop, engineering shop, motorfactors, make it sound bike specific and suddenly fasteners, bearings etc sddenly trebbel in price even on CRC!

Everything else – online. And why not, its invariably cheeper, and I don’t have to do the traveling? It’s usualy on my doorstep well before I’d actualy have made a specific trip to an LBs anyway.

I can’t stomach the prices of meat in Sainsburys.

When the common man is squeezed what does that do to his shopping habits?

It makes him shop smarter.

This means he doesn’t have the largess to shop in his local bikeshop knowing he is just one click away from saving his wage somewhere else….

Flying fox.He’s just a Yorkshire tight git. In fact, Hora is so tight that he actually sneaked out of the pub and went home when it was his round on Friday night. An offense equal to kiddie-fiddling, in my eyes.

….40mins after giving blood for the first time 🙄

Wow, contentious thread – good work OP! I gave up reading half way down page 2 but thought I’d add my tuppence:

Agreed CRC, along with a lot of other online retailers, have a good business model as is reflected in their success. I don’t understand the folks who don’t understand that and can only assume there’s some other motive behind their fervent dislike of someone doing well.

As for LBS, I support mine whenever I can as they provide a great service. If they can supply me with what I need in a decent amount of time and at a price close to an online retailer I’ll buy from them. If they can’t I’ll use the internet, they know this and understand.

Perhaps they’re an oddity, but every one of the folks who work in my LBS are keen riders/racers who understand the need for value. They don’t expect me to open my wallet every time I walk in the shop, and as a result of that and being generally nice chaps they’ve done pretty well out of me and my mates. We’ve all been through bike refresh mode over the last couple of years and after many hours talking over pretty much every aspect of potential purchases have spent close to £20k between us in the one shop. They’re always busy and there is a reason for that, they’re good at what they do and offer something CRC et al cannot.

Actually my LBS isn’t my most local LBS, I drive 10 miles past about 4 other shops to get to them because they provide the best service and choice for miles around.

Bottom line as I see it is this – if you’re running a business your customer is entitled to expect good value and great service, you either deliver it and do well or you don’t and don’t. As a customer the best way to let them know they’re doing a good/bad job is to vote with your feet either way.

As someone relatively new to modern bikes, I can agree with a lot of what’s been said. For me, the only time I can get to a LBS is at the weekend, when I’d rather be riding! I can order stuff from CRC/Superstar/whoever and have it sitting at my desk within two days. If I want instructions on how to do something then there are a myriad of forums and instructional videos on YouTube to tell me how to do it.

Half the time it’s actually cheaper to buy a tool to do a particular job than the labour alone to have it done – bleeding brakes for example; now I have a bleed kit I can do the job myself whenever I like, and in less time than it would take to just get to the LBS!

I think in the near future mobile bike mechanics are going to get more and more business, especially those that can offer on-site fork and shock servicing as well. No business premises to pay for, just a well-equipped van and the most commonly-needed service parts. Buy your parts online, mechanic turns up at your work in a van, fits them, job done.

Saying that, my LBS is very good – the OH got her Camber on C2W through them and they’ve been great. Still buy occasional bits and bobs there if we’re in for whatever reason, but never go there specifically to buy anything, and wouldn’t miss them hugely if they weren’t there tbh. I’ve never been into the whole LBS-as-mates, go in for a coffee and a chat, borrow tools, kind of scene so I suppose I don’t see it that way – I’d always rather be self-sufficient and fix stuff myself as then I at least know how well (or badly!) the work’s been done.

The Lbikeshop is increasingly looking to the ill-informed (on price, skills, product range etc) to provide it’s income.

Or disinclined. There’s a fair number of people out there who have no interest in knowing how to fix their gears, don’t want to get their hands dirty, and are quite happy to pay someone else to do the job. No different from DIY vs. getting the builders in, really.

an Anglo-Saxon post hole diagram

I’m surprised their documentation has lasted that long, certainly better than the software I’m dealing with at the moment.

Before the internet we had to suck it up didn’t we?

Exactly, Hora. I used to go to a shop for road stuff that openly sneered at you and often charged over RRP because no one else locally sold the parts they did. I used them because I pretty much had to.

Once the internet really took off, I stopped going there.

Okay, but we provide a same or next day service within 15 miles of the store so there are options. A friend feels the need to battle with his colleagues to get stuff from me that he delivers to them the next day and then they pay later. Still doesn’t work!

Binners – I have a friend who’s the same guy – I see him looking around and then downing the last half pint so he can buy his round when everyone else has an almost full glass. Maybe I’m as bad – I don’t let him away with it so always order a pint from him regardless of how much is in my glass (always half full, I’m positive, it just doesn’t come across as such!).

derp – PRIDE? It’s gone, gone I tell you! Alright, I’ll go to Morrisons – their meat and fish actually looks like, well, meat and fish.

Why am I spending so long as a forum gimp on my day off? Time for a bike ride. Give us a shout through the contact us form on our website – we’re selling everything off so make us an offer. Now that’s business sense!

@Hora

I stopped taking ‘advice’ from bikeshops in circa 2002.

That was around the time you stopped buying things elsewhere and bringing them into my shop to ask if they were any good?

Just as long as the shop in question wasn’t Cycle Surgery. They are the shop that stopped me buying RRP/trusting what a shop told me.

The anti-chainreaction website was setup by a spanish bike shop owner, he might want to look at the Spanish attitude to “service”. On Friday I wanted a wheel built up with a new hub (Alfine). 1st bike shop said “not touching that”, 2nd bike shop “Too difficult and most people just come back and buy a complete wheel anyway” (wtf?). This is pretty typical.

Reading through the Comments I think the Debate is (As ever) swinging from extreme to Extreme…

Personally I can see nothing Wrong with CRC, they Embarked on a Business strategy that has paid off, it was a risk no doubt and if they had gone bust and we weren’t debating their ethics now, it would be Wiggle, Merlin or whoever rose to the top of the Online bicycle retailer league table instead…

They have a business model they didn’t set out to destroy anyone and they are running a perfectly legal and acceptable business…

But I can see the counter argument, LBSs squeezed out of being able to compete simply because Distribution pricing and arrangements have a massive disparity between the Large online retailer with a warehouse and the Small Local Shop with a stock cupboard.

Part/accessories sales are a pretty big (and I assume growing) chunk of the overall cycling market too, and I can see the massive frustration for any LBS owners with customers coming in to try on a Jacket, pair of shoes or have a look at a Demo bike/bits, only to discover that the customer thought they were in “Google’s Show Room” and not an actual shop.

I’m sure Most LBS owners would love CRC levels of turnover and some of their Ethical codes might change if it accommodated this… But Business ethics are a lot harder when you are the underdog

If I’m honest most of my LBS experiences over the last Decade or so have been pretty negative, the prices seem very high (Not the LBS fault necessarily) the Staff are more often than not less knowledgeable than me and can be patronising, rude or simply just thick…
I can see how the presence of CRC/Wiggle/Merlin/etc stifles their business and probably limits both the standard of people they can afford and the level of training/experience their Staff can gain fixing punctures on shopping bikes every day isn’t the same as bleeding some Rich, know it all Git’s Maguras…

Is it CRCs fault? No they are using the internet the same way as thousands of other companies in every other sphere of business, and others inability to adapt is not CRCs fault…

CRC and the “Home mechanic” are simply a product of the “Information age” you can get it cheaper online as well as learn how to fit it…

The distributors and I think the levels of investment and opportunities for business and technical training are the major things limiting the LBS more than anything these days, and I don’t think there is a Quick fix for that…

he might want to look at the Spanish attitude to “service”.

To be fair, that depends on the shop.

Are they like those Mexicans?

Are they like those Mexicans?

I work with a lot of Mexicans, and like Spanish shop service – it depends. Some work very long hours, others the bare minimum.

Even the food bit, their chilli-powder covered lollipops are truly disgusting. The rest of the stuff is great.

bleeding some Rich, know it all Git’s Maguras

I appreciate it may be unintentional, but I resent the implication that, if I demonstrate a good working knowledge of how my bike works, I have some kind of character flaw.

I’ve been tinkering with bikes since I was about 12 years old – my dad was a roadie and was of the mind that I should be able to fix my own bike if something went wrong with it. As a result, I’ve been raised on the concept that the bicycle is a cheap, easily repaired form of transport for the masses, rather than the plaything of the IT middle manager. Unfortunately, some of the spokespeople for the LBS on here seem to have no concept of this, assuming that they are peddling something akin to a niche brand track day car that needs the constant attention of a skilled professional mechanic. If we’re honest, with the exception of more advanced suspension components, there’s not much on a bike that can’t be repaired by a reasonably competent DIY mechanic with a couple of dozen reasonable quality tools.

I don’t expect any of the bike shops local to me to offer ‘favours’, or be my best buddies – I don’t want coffee or cakes when I go there either. All I ask is competent service and a polite friendly attitude and if I get it, then I’m more likely to offer them repeat business.

MTB’s are technical sports equipment. You don’t re-string your tennis raquet or custom fit your own golf clubs, you get a professional to do it for you. They can’t do this “online” that’s where the personal service comes in.
As a former golf pro that defected to MTB I find it incredible that riders feel they are better than the pros at choosing and building the right equipment for their needs. This doesn’t happen in any other sport.

The difference between a pro and amateur golfer is 25% talent 75% practice.
I feel the same applies to cycle industry professionals.
The good guys work at this stuff for years before you see them. They will make you look poor by comparison in a head to head.

I’m sorry. I’ve tried very hard, but I simply cannot resist responding to this. ( 😆 )

‘Former golf pro’? What does that even mean? I’m a ‘former cycling pro’. And I’ve worked in the bicycle retail industry. And I’ve known several owners of LBS. LBS exist to make their owners money.

Do you know the spoke length for a M765 front hub laced to a Mavic xc717 rim off the top of your head?
Could you build one to World Class standard?
What’s the correct BB axle length for a M440 chainset?

Erm, I doubt the mechanics I’ve worked with (superb, mostly), would know such stuff without referring to a manual or tinternet (do you know how many different models and dimensions there are???). And ‘World Class Standard’? What does that mean? I’m not a ‘pro’ wheelbuilder but all the wheels I’ve built for my own and other’s bikes have been perfectly fine, and not one has ever failed as a result of my work. It’s not rocket science. It’s a bicycle.

The days of the knowledgeable old sage emerging from the darkness of the workshop, blinking in the light, to give advice on a thrust-sprongle clutch washer for a Sturmey-Maillard hub gear unit are gone. Tinternet, as Stoner points out, can enlighten us all. And many of us are better able to sort our own bikes out than any bike shop wallah, as we actually care about the machine, rather as seeing it as just another customer’s bike.

I wonder how many people who mourn the demise of the ‘friendly local bike shop’ give a hoot about the cheap local car fixing place under the railway arches? Y’know, the automotive equivalent, in some ways, to the LBS? Or the local DIY place, struggling to stay alive in the face of the relentless drive by Homebase, B+Q, etc? Or, the working conditions of pepole in factories in the Far East, making the parts to go on the shiny bicycles of affluent Westerners? S’Capitalism, innit?

What shaft would you fit to titleist D2 for draw bias?

Who cares? 🙂

I’ve not read most of the posts but;

When CRC started up they were cheap for everything, the stock was good and they didn’t have a pernament sale on.

Now the stock levels are not always great, you have to be careful your not getting old stock, and their prices are not actually much cheaper than any where else, in fact now it is very rare that I will find stuff cheapest on CRC…. or wiggle.

The most annoying thing however is their chuffing advertising here and every where else which is plain annoying and actually puts me off buying anything from them.

ebowski – life does not owe me a living. However, if everyone buys from the Internet then pay a few quid (or nothing as has been suggested) for the bike shop to fit the part then how long do you think this practice will continue?

I dont know but what is it you want? Some form of legal protection? Where do you think that will lead? When it comes to being a consumer we are price & service driven & there is no getting away from that. CRC are cheap & provide reasonable service. As for gettimg the work done for free? Ive always paid for everything Ive ever had done to my bikes. If someone is prepared to do the work at a loss well thats there choice & nothing to do with me..