I disagree. The bigger issue is the definition of a careful and competent driver. On average you probably stand a better chance of the definition being used actually being a competent driver in a magistrates court, but clearly there are likely to be some magistrates with pretty poor standard of driving who think they’re above average.

wwaswas I am not seeking to explore how one proves dangerous driving but how one defines it . Persistence is not the test for dangerous driving one off acts can and do amount to dangerous driving . It is obviously easier to demonstrate the offence from a prolonged series of poor manoeuvres but they are not essential to making out the offence.

The definition has been posted above and easygirl rightly corrected or clarified the lack of any need to show intent in the offence.

I presume if there was intent then a different, more serious charge could be brought? Though as always you have the issue of proving intent beyond reasonable doubt, which is why I’d expect very few such cases come to court (did intent get proved with the bloke who reversed over a bike trailer in a Rangie?)

Edit: remembered enough of that case for google to help – it seems he did get charged with (and pleaded guilty to) GBH
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1421135/Road-rage-driver-reversed-over-child-in-bicycle-buggy.html

Thisisnotaspoon where do you get your persistence test from? If I see an oncoming police car responding to an emergency and deliberately drive to block it causing it to hit me , is that only careless because it was a single act?

That’s an entirely different scenario (but would according to the link below be “dangerous”).

http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/p_to_r/road_traffic_offences_guidance_on_prosecuting_cases_of_bad_driving/

We had this discussion on a H&S course as a tangent from stuff like a fine from HSE after an accident Vs corperate manslaughter, allong the lines of faiulre to fix an unkonwn fault is an accident, failure to do any maintenance at all (i.e. persistance) increaces the severity of the charge.

It’s not the only way to get charged with dangerous driving, but it is the one commonly used as it’s about the only one that’s proveable, the rest is all subjective e.g. “without due care” is defined as “bleow the standard expected”, “dangerous” is “far below”. Regardless of consequence, is a bad overtake below the standard expected, or far below?

thisisnotaspoon
from your link:-

“The following examples of circumstances that are likely to be characterised as dangerous driving are derived from decided cases and the SGC Definitive Guideline:
blah blah
overtaking which could not have been carried out safely;
blah blah
a brief but obvious danger arising from a seriously dangerous manoeuvre. This covers situations where a driver has made a mistake or an error of judgement that was so substantial that it caused the driving to be dangerous even for only a short time”
So yes a single bad overtake can be dangerous.

I particularly approve of “failing to have a proper and safe regard for vulnerable road users such as cyclists,”

1) Its “without due care and attention”, not careless

Actually, for the assistance of those engaging in point scoring pedantry, the offence is Careless, and Inconsiderate, Driving, and the definition of that offence is when a person drives a mechanically propelled vehicle on a road or other public place without due care and attention, or without reasonable consideration for other persons using the road or place.

If only the CPS and the courts actually paid any attention to that bit.

Me too! I have today just had a conversation with the officer who decided not to prosecute the driver who ran me down when I was in a bus lane the other driver cut across traffic from a side street on my right to enter a side street on my left hitting me at 90% . One of the factors relied on to decide not to prosecute was the opinion of the attending officer “the cyclist must accept some responsibility to ensure their own safety when approaching a junction.” to be clear I was travelling at normal traffic speed in a bus/cycle lane along side a lane of cars with right of way, the car that hit me had to shoot at 90% across a cycle lane a traffic lane a hatched divide a second traffic lane then into the bus lane to hit me and did not stop until it was half in the other side road .

That is complete BS and victim blaming at it’s absolute worst – the sort of thing which is part of the problem. Personally I’d be putting in a complaint about that, stating the part of the CPS guidance you’ve just quoted, and asking where in the HC or any CPS guidance it mentions what he’s suggested as a reason for reducing the culpability of a driver. I’m fairly sure similar complaints have actually resulted in an admittance from the police that they were incorrect and it’s a start if we can change a few attitudes.

Actually why don’t you just name the “officer” concerned on here…

because it was one of a number of factors . The personal call was an attempt to head off the complaint I made when I received a generic standard computer signed letter saying no proceedings would be taken and listing generic example factors that would have been considered.

The standard factors listed all in my view went towards prosecution I asked for a detailed and reasoned explanation for the decision about my case . That is what I got, cctv showed before after but not the incident I know the area and camera system that is plausible, eye witness on pavement saw it but says if he had been driving he may not have, cyclist behind says he was keeping pace with me and feathered his brakes as he has seen a similar there ,he states he could not express an opinion as to blame . Mystery man in car in cue says I was going at a pace . The two nice ladies who administered first aid and tried to lynch the driver were not statemented even though they are the only actual eye witnesses I was aware of?
So I can see that from a cash strapped police perspective the case is a potential bag of nails . I got the smell it was going to go off when the original officer took my account by phone when I was leaving causality and told me I had to “understand the drivers side another driver had flashed her so she had just gone and never saw me .”
What I really wanted was some indication it had actually been investigated which the letter did not give and some comfort that the driver had received some sort of threat or warning which they have not they got the same standard letter I got .

Well what you’ve outlined there is also a complete load of BS – your speed is irrelevant, as is the opinion of eye witnesses on blame (that is determined from the facts which is what they provide information on). Though I do particularly like the “officer” completely ignoring the HC and the law regarding flashing in his comments to you. As I stated above, I’d be taking that further as they are provably incorrect in some of their judgements – the officer supplying that opinion really needs correcting. Though you probably know all that anyway.

Serious comment about naming and shaming – if the police and their complaints won’t do anything then social media might.

This reminds me of the story (PistonHeads?) about a driver who took a wet corner a *little* too fast, and spun the car (ending up in the opposite side of the road).

At the same time, a few bikers were coming round the same corner – opposite direction – “most likely above the speed limit”, and one rider hit the car, and died as a result.

The driver got something like 6 months inside for “death by dangerous driving” (or equivilant).

EDIT: I think this was the story, although the original post has been removed. The comments say enough.

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f=210&t=629763&mid=0&i=0&nmt=Prison+Diary&mid=0

Xiphon, that is the story Hora linked to at the end of page one. His link gives the full description.

The biker didn’t die, but he has a paralysed right arm and will never work again.

The driver got 12 months for dangerous driving.

Ah thats it (memory a little shady) – sorry I didn’t see Hora’s post.

Aracer ta for your comments I agree with you and spent twenty minutes putting my side to the guy who made the charging decision,not the original officer . There is a sound argument to be made but it would at best end in a criminal trial where the prosecution witnesses would be arguing with each other. I still find the incident very hard to come with ironically enough because my injuries were relatvely slight . I don’t want to put myself through months of stress or my wife and son through months of me being stressed . in the civil case the insurers have accepted liability so I will get some compo though again I plan to cut and run if they make a sensible offer rather than go for the full psychological bits . hard to see how you value my reaction to what didn’t happen.

Very interesting reading all. Thank you.

A bit more information on my injuries and suffering and what to do next. Result of the accident, smashed radius, dislocated wrist, broken shoulder, severely sprained ankle, lacerated finger (requiring plastic surgery) and deep cut on my knee. Resulting in five nights in LGI. I am still suffering from PTSD and I am still seeing a psychiatrist for this, sixteen sessions in total.

Someone mentioned arthritis, this is already present in my radio carpel joint and also in my Ulna joint and the surgeon has discussed wrist fusion (which I want to avoid). I have had two cortisone injections and I am due to see the consultant for the next step regarding surgery.

Now for the compensation part. I have a solicitor working for me on this. Is it possible to personally sue the offender or do I just get compensation through the insurance company? A couple have mentioned six figure sums, really that much?

The solicitors work with an independent Dr to verify the severity of my injuries, I am yet to see them until I have been discharged. Apparently my wrist is on the complex case list that is discussed every month between the top hand surgeons in the North and I fear a general Dr will not report the extent of my injuries fully.

My whole life I have played a high level of cricket and now I can’t. I have lost a huge social circle and I feel lost.

Thanks again for any comments that may help me.

Hammy you are personally suing the other driver he has insured against the risk of you doing it,hence your solicitor dealing with his insurers .

Given your very significant injuries combined with the psychological impact plus loss of life pleasures I would expect quite a high settlement.

Your solicitor should be able to give you a broad ball park idea. A rough suggestion from mine for PTSD alone was 9k I for many reasons don’t think I have PTSD and am happier suggesting a bit of adjustment disorder to get something modest and move on .
One thing your solicitor can do is work out an agreed bare minimum get that as an interim payment and finalise the settlement when your prognosis is settled.

Your solicitor can and should get reports from the appropriate level of expert including if needed the surgeons who treat your wrist not just a general doctor.

Crankboy, thank you that makes sense.

I totally understand your position on this. The point here isn’t to get a criminal trial (I doubt that will now happen whatever you do), but to adjust the attitudes of some police officers. I’m not an expert on this, but I believe there is a formal complaints procedure to be followed which has resulted in officers being told they are wrong in similar cases before (it is after all quite clear that the officer does not correctly understand the law based on some of his comments to you). Clearly it’s up to you what you want to do, as it involves no hassle at all for me to pontificate on an internet forum, but you certainly have my backing (for what that is worth) to take it further.