Viewing 40 posts - 1 through 40 (of 46 total)
  • Countryfile illegally mountain biking in New Forest
  • Zulu-Eleven
    Free Member

    Its all kicking off 🙄

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/tvandradio/bbc/9162727/BBC-Countryfile-presenter-accused-of-adventure-racing-on-sensitive-land.html

    Concerns were aired at a stormy Verderer’s Court on Wednesday.

    Michael Chilcott, secretary of conservation watchdog the New Forest Association, told the court: “We wish to register in the strongest possible terms our objection to the practice of adventure racing on the fragile lands of the New Forest.

    “Countryfile highlighted this damaging practice with footage of competitors racing over mires and heathland that should be protected by the Forestry Commission.”

    Kevin Penfold, Forestry Commission deputy surveyor, said the programme makers were only given permission to film on approved tracks.

    He said: “Unfortunately, the feature did not promote the use of the cycle network sufficiently clearly, or the avoidance of sensitive sites.”

    Official Verderer Dominic May said he was “very upset” with the programme.

    Of course, once upon a time it were a decent farmers program, not a luvvie duvvie ‘magazine’ program for townies in hunters 😉

    AndyRT
    Free Member

    I remember asking the verderers about bikes on the forest quite a few years ago when I lived in the Forest, and the answer I got was:

    We’ve only just got round to licensing horse riders on the forest. Wait a couple of hundred years and we might get round to it…

    IHN
    Full Member

    I like Countryfile, it’s gone from my hungover Sunday morning relaxing watch of choice to my post Sunday roast with glass of wine relaxing watch of choice.

    And the presenter in question is particularly aesthetically pleasing.

    dobiejessmo
    Free Member

    What a pompous ASS. 😆

    IanMunro
    Free Member

    Official Verderer Dominic May said he was “very upset” with the programme

    My heart bleeds for his anguish.

    martinhutch
    Full Member

    I saw the report and they made it clear that they were adhering to rights of way. The presenter even asked a direct question about it.

    ‘Verderers Court’? What a grand name for a Parish Council. I like the idea of a ‘stormy’ one though. Conjures up images of Zeus raging from Mt Olympus.

    When in fact it’s a bloke in a tweed jacket having a whine in front of the WI.

    singletracksteve
    Free Member

    Hiya, longtime reader, first time poster.
    I’ve got to admit, I was deeply concerned when I saw the programme. Don’t get me wrong, I’m a keen mountain biker, but there are some places where it shouldn’t be allowed in the manner it was shown, and that piece of land is one. In a month or two’s time, that land will be largely closed off to everyone for the ground nesting bird season, and it is an extremely fragile habitat that they cycled through. Annoyingly, there is a fairly good (for the Forest) network of cycle tracks in that area as well, which is I imagine, why the FC gave them permission to hold the event there. Had they known that they would go well off the cycle paths and into the heathland, I have no doubt that permission would have been refused. Even without the cycle network, they could still have stuck to more appropriate tracks than they did (half of the time they weren’t on tracks at all, which is what the uproar is about).
    The organiser’s assertion that they only use rights of way and public routes is pretty thin – there are no rights of way in the forest and they clearly deviated from the approved cycle network. The BBC’s comment in the article, that they ‘checked with the organisers’ is also wrong – no cycle tracks go across boggy land. Nor is it (as said in the programme), just a case of ‘letting landowners know what they’re doing’ – they require permission from the FC to host any sort of organised event. From a New Forest point of view, I see this is a bit of a win – a company that must have been misrepresenting the format of its events in order to get FC permission, has been caught out. Hopefully next time, they’ll host their events somewhere more appropriate or adhere to the same rules that everyone else is supposed to.
    PS – I’m not anti cycling at all, but this activity just wan’t appropriate on this piece of land.

    Zulu-Eleven
    Free Member

    I saw the report and they made it clear that they were adhering to rights of way. The presenter even asked a direct question about it.

    Hmmm, were they racing at the time? even naughtier then – Racing a bicycle on a bridleway is illegal by and of itself 🙁

    singletracksteve
    Free Member

    I saw the report and they made it clear that they were adhering to rights of way.

    There are probably only about 10 miles (at the very very most) of rights of way on the Crown Lands in the New Forest. They weren’t riding anywhere near them. The Crown Lands are just that, and the public have been granted rights over them on foot or on horseback. The rules state that cyclists must stick to the designated permissive cycle network (although sensible riding on other established trails appears to be tolerated). The racers went well off of all trails and into sensitive heathland and mire – hence the uproar.

    theotherjonv
    Full Member

    that’s i-player for tonight sorted. Was she proper racing in lycra?

    singletracksteve
    Free Member

    ‘Verderers Court’? What a grand name for a Parish Council.

    The Verderer’s court is a bit different to the parish councils. Essentially they exist to protect the forest and the rights of the commoners, and their jurisdiction covers dozens of parishes. Howmuch real power they have though, I don’t know. I do agree that there will have been tweed.

    midlifecrashes
    Full Member

    The organisers said they’d be using rights of way, but was very hazy their his language as to whether they were exclusively on tracks. The programme showed them off track and across bog(on foot). Aren’t there rules against racing on bridleways? Not a local so don’t know how sensitive the actual areas are, but reckon they might have a point.

    On the iPlayer from 26 minutes in.

    BBC: Are there any issues about just going across any open countryside, where you’re allowed to go? What kind of troubles are there?

    Organiser: There is and there isn’t. You know, if you come to an area like this, we use public rights of way, bridleways which the public can use anyway. We speak to the local FC, local landowners, just to let them know we are in the area and if there’s any concerns they might have.

    BBC: Is the New Forest any good for this?

    Organiser: It’s fantastic, yes. They want to get people out into the open and we want to get people out into the open, so it’s perfect.

    Junkyard
    Free Member

    adventure racing

    Sounds AWESOME I bet it was less than this

    Dont knwo the area nor the programme but that phrase made me chuckle

    singletracksteve
    Free Member

    Was she proper racing in lycra?

    No – an oversized orange bib. Disappointing.

    karen805
    Free Member

    I did think when I saw this episode of Country File that that probably shouldn’t be riding where they were, they should know better really.

    Heading down to the New Forest for the weekend, I’ll be taking the bikes too, but heading into Ringwood forest for some singletrack, where off roading is allowed.

    singletracksteve
    Free Member

    BBC: Is the New Forest any good for this?

    Correct answer: No. The cycle network is disappointingly restrictive and only really any good for family leisure rides.

    martinhutch
    Full Member

    ST Steve – interesting.

    I’ve obviously got too much faith in people’s ability to realise that your activity appearing on multi million-viewer programmes will involve a little more scrutiny than normal…

    amodicumofgnar
    Full Member

    Just watched that earlier today. Main thoughts:
    1) Isnt that bike a bit big for her
    2) Oooh adventure racing, might up the numbers of potential trail questers
    3) Not the shoes to be running through a bog.

    Looking at what’s been put on above either someone didnt do all the checks they should have. Or someones got very heated up over something that didnt occur the way they think it did. Might have to have another look but I thought they were running through bogs rather than riding.

    Given the media to have to simplify – was it actually in the new forest or was it on some other area of land close by? What’s good telly and what’s exactly, exactly right are often different things. Hopefully this is just an honest mistake – be a shame to ruin ‘good’ coverage of one part of biking.

    amodicumofgnar
    Full Member

    The clip is on this week’s countryfile about 25mins 30secs in, there is a long(ish) shot of the map showing the ‘event’ area about a min after that.

    It looks to be in and around an area called Holmsley Enclosure and uses the rail trail to the north.

    superfli
    Free Member

    I’ve done a lot of “adventure racing” in the New Forest -DAR and Questars. Always stick to the bridleways, and probably do more damage on foot where we used to occasionally run through heathland and bogs (since learnt this isnt the quickest method!).

    In fact I have a race in NF tomorrow with Questars. It starts in Brockenhurst and will probably take in Perrywood/Parkhill Enclosure. It seems every other year its on the north side of A31

    singletracksteve
    Free Member

    It looks to be in and around an area called Holmsley Enclosure and uses the rail trail to the north.

    Yep, it’s on the Crown Lands west of Brockenhurst, in the south west corner of the New Forest. The railway line and a loop of track in the enclosure are cycle tracks. The running segment was almost certainly in Holmsley Enclosure, the woodland in the bottom right corner of the map shot. Most of the cycling appears to be on the land south of the railway line which also contains mires (bogs) and the road nearby (a little later in the programme someone conveniently shows their route around the markers on another shot of a map).

    FieldMarshall
    Full Member

    Just watched it on iplayer and I cant see what all the fuss is about.

    Its hard to tell from the cycling footage whether they are on cycle tracks or not, as the camera angles they have chosen are taken from quite low down in an attempt to make it look more off road than it really is.

    However, they have deliberately put in footage of the permitted cycle track signs in several places.

    The only part where they seem to be definitely off piste on bikes is the 100 or so yds either side of the start/finish.

    Where they are traversing the bogs etc they are only on foot. Which is permitted if somewaht foolish. And its not something i would personally want to do.

    Seems the New Forest nimbys are getting their knickers in a twist about nothing again.

    However, anything that gives the Verderers an excuse to have a moan will always be jumped on and that means bad PR for MTBers. Which is a shame.

    I’m sure the Questars organisers are going to make more of a point about this than normal tomorrow, because I am sure they will be being watched.

    joat
    Full Member

    Not too much to get upset about without knowing all the facts. I imagine the verderers are itching to complain about anything that doesn’t show their small minded idea of how it should be. Whether they’re right or wrong, I don’t know.

    singletracksteve
    Free Member

    Superfli – I can’t comment on how well Questars manage their events, but the rules on their webpage seem pretty comprehensive and strict and make sure that all forms of travel are well disciplined – no clambering over fences (also seen on Countryfile), no crossing open heathland, and that’s for running! Triadventure on the other hand say here that “You may run on marked public footpaths, bridleways and permissible tracks – the green and black dashed lines.” Assuming they mean a 1:25,000 OS map (which uses green lines for rights of way), green dashed lines indicate a public Right of Way, black ones do not; they only indicate the existence of a path and not its access status. That really is an amateur oversight.

    amodicumofgnar
    Full Member

    Having watched it all again I thought the organiser did a good enough job in explaining what goes on in the background. There could have been a days worth of filming to get to this ten minutes. The organiser might have given the world greatest event planning, permissions, consents and ecological sensitivity speech – it just never made it into the edit. What the TV production team, the event organisers, the forester and the verders all think covers explaining its a sensitive site might be different. Ultimately its a TV programme and they want to make good TV.

    I just want to bang my head against a wall everytime there is a wild food and foraging piece in the media. As I dont think it covers all the issues enough – exactly how many people it encourages to go for wild food. Or if the ‘rules’ are adequately explained is a mater of interpretation.

    Short of an ever present – dont believe your eyes or ears warning on every TV program, how do you tell people not to do every they see?

    It’s a shame the newspaper went for the hook of mountain biking. They probably took that line because the public at large doesnt know what adventure racing is.

    singletracksteve
    Free Member

    Its hard to tell from the cycling footage whether they are on cycle tracks or not

    Knowing that area reasonably well (as will the verderers), I can instantly tell that they’re well off the cycle network, in an area of mixed heathland and mire. In over half of the shots they’re not on the cycle network, instead they’re in a pretty sensitive area south of the main railway line cycle route.

    This has come at a bit of an awkward time, as the New Forest Association have twice made press releases on the subject of cycling in the last couple of months. In the first, they came up with a load of unsubstantiated crap about how gangs of cyclists are destroying the quiet nature of the forest. In the second they complained veraciously about an upcoming race (all on permissive cycle tracks), again stating that it ruins the quiet beauty of the forest.

    I have no respect for these last two issues – half of it’s rubbish, and the other half is nimbyism, but on this latest issue, Countryfile/Triadventure haven’t done anyone any favours. They’ve been filmed breaching forest bylaws in a sensitive Special Conservation Area. I have to agree that it was an inappropriate activity in this area.

    singletracksteve
    Free Member

    It’s a shame the newspaper went for the hook of mountain biking. They probably took that line because the public at large doesnt know what adventure racing is.

    I agree, but it was probably because the running section didn’t actually breach any bylaws (I think), irrespective of how potentially damaging it might be (clambering over fences and through mires). Cycling off the network did breach the bylaws though.

    FieldMarshall
    Full Member

    But if you didn’t know the area and just watch the clip, the message that comes across is that you should only ride on designated tracks or rights of way. Which is reinforced by the deliberate attempt to include images of cycle track signs.

    Seems like a bit of a storm in a tea cup to me.

    Anyway what I want to know is when the verderers are going to put all the trees back. It used to be a forest, not open heathland and bogs until we cut all the trees down. So I don’t get this insistence on protecting the heathlands, as that is just a man made environment. If they returned it to the way it really was then we could have more forest and therefore more places to mtb!

    singletracksteve
    Free Member

    I agree, but there is the danger that saying they’re riding over rights of way, and then entering terrain radically different from the wide cycle lanes, suggests to other people that they are also allowed to go there.

    I don’t really think the issue here is the message to the public though (aside from that line in the article (The Forestry Commission claimed that by promoting off-road mountain bike racing there, the show is helping turn the forest into an “adventure playground.”), which is wrongly attributed to the FC (it was the New Forest Association that made this claim). It’s the fact that a sports group and the television presenter took part in an activity that breaches bylaws, and the sports group obviously do so on a regular basis (and would continue to do so if this storm didn’t happen).

    Zulu-Eleven
    Free Member

    So I don’t get this insistence on protecting the heathlands, as that is just a man made environment. If they returned it to the way it really was then we could have more forest and therefore more places to mtb!

    Cynical mode firmly on – Have you seen the grants available for heathland restoration? Certain organisations are taking a lot of money in for it – personally I’m a huge supporter of heathland restoration from a conservation point of view, but I think that the advocates have gone “all or nothing” – taking out ALL the trees and replacing one monoculture with another, what we need is a much more complex and random mix of trees and heath giving a wider variety of habitats with different stages of succession, and I feel its being “funding led” rather than through a genuine desire to enhance the environment. Jobs for the boys?

    Back to the programme, now I’ve seen it – and I’ll speak as someone who did a fair bit of campaigning for MTB’ers

    I have a problem with any and every organisation that promotes the countryside as some form of extension of a municipal park – the countryside is a working resource, that we as a cycling community can and should enjoy for what it is, treating both the countryside and the landowners with respect and consideration, and in my opinion if we do that we get treated the same way in return, that as a community we’ve come leaps and bounds towards being accepted as legitimate and welcomed countryside users from the early days when we were lycra louts and pariah’s, and I believe that by representing the MTB community in this way, almost ‘playing the game’, then we can consistently further our own aims.

    I think its incumbent upon any event organiser to be whiter than white on this front, as they represent us as a community, and anything they do reflects upon the rest of us – most of the ones I’ve met over the years, both road and MTB event organisers, have taken this approach and worked closely with local authorities and landowners. I find it telling that the ones responsible for the problems recently have been “sportive” and “adventure racing” organisers that have not come from the same background, and in my opinion often drawn to organising cycling events as a “quick buck” from a “high spend” user group, and I’ve seen a huge number of poorly organised “copycat” events crop up that try to copy the format of well established events that have paved the way by building up a reputation through years of persistent hard work and diplomacy that respected the principles of respect and consideration, and an understanding of the relevant and complex laws and unwritten rules through building personal relationships and contacts.

    I’m concerned that the sheer number of copycat events, and their lack of knowledge, plus their lack of long term personal investment in the sport and community, will have very serious knock on effects for the “good guys” and for the MTB’er community in general.

    <steps off soapbox for a minute, and breathe…>

    joemarshall
    Free Member

    I have a problem with any and every organisation that promotes the countryside as some form of extension of a municipal park – the countryside is a working resource,

    Not commenting on the rights and wrongss, but what ‘work’ exactly does the New Forest do other than tourism? Is there really any work done there that is anywhere near as important* as providing a playground for people, and the obvious conservation work that goes into keeping that playground as nice and natural as possible?

    joe
    * in terms of numbers of people involved, the amount of money involved etc?

    Zulu-Eleven
    Free Member

    Primarily Timber & Farming – they’ve gone on there for hundreds, indeed thousands of years, and made it what it is, the New Forest was not built for tourism, and the primary point of designation as a National Park is their importance for the natural beauty of their landscapes, the value of their wildlife habitats and their cultural heritage. People should be encouraged to enjoy that, not to destroy it.

    conservation work that goes into keeping that playground as nice and natural as possible?

    Well, not a bit of it is natural. And I would argue 100% that the conservation work is not, and should never be, done primarily to enhance the ‘playground’. The aim of conservation work has to be to protect and enhance the natural environment by and for its own value – not to enhance its value for recreational use.

    singletracksteve
    Free Member

    Not commenting on the rights and wrongss, but what ‘work’ exactly does the New Forest do other than tourism? Is there really any work done there that is anywhere near as important* as providing a playground for people, and the obvious conservation work that goes into keeping that playground as nice and natural as possible?

    Although tourism is important to the New Forest, that tourism only exists because of the conservation work done here. It’s an incredibly rare type of habitat in the UK (this is the only place where all 3 types of native snake in the UK can be found), the heathland represents a huge percentage of an ever dwindling landscape in Europe, this is one of few places where commoning is still practised, and bear in mind that National Parks aren’t designated as such to mark them as playgrounds. The FC still do a lot of forestry here as well.

    Well, not a bit of it is natural.

    Yes and no. There’s lots of ancient woodland, and the heathland is a natural enough environment. It is managed, but not designed. Again though, this is primarily for its conservation, not as a playground.

    Anyway what I want to know is when the verderers are going to put all the trees back. It used to be a forest, not open heathland and bogs until we cut all the trees down.

    That was done in the Neolithic and bronze Age eras, and most of the heathland has been managed in one way or another (either by man or stock animals) since then. In fact a lot of trees have grown over ancient heathland since then.

    superfli
    Free Member

    Well we had a briefing at the Questars event that explained no going off the cycle trails, and no venturing off the footpaths/bridleways on foot. The FC had a representative there who was taking part and apparently thoroughly enjoyed the event.
    All reports were very positive after the event 🙂

    br
    Free Member

    You’d be hard to find any actual ‘natural’ habitat in the UK, you name a place and it will have been changed over the last couple of thousand years by man.

    Its just a story to fill a space.

    MrSynthpop
    Free Member

    Couldn’t really tell from the footage if Countryfile/organisers were acting improperly, presumably if they were then action will be taken although I doubt it as for many in the NF an article in the Telegraph is a decision of the highest court of all and no further investigation is needed.

    Between the dire behaviour of the BBC and the existential threat of a chain pub in Lymington its a wonder the brave guardians of the forest can sleep.

    scaredypants
    Full Member

    The areas of the forest that are truly turned to full-on Somme* status, are that way because of the passage of either heavy forestry vehicles or large numbers of hooved animals (or both).

    I don’t question the necessity/right of either to be there, but trying to blame cyclists for any of the significant damage is just ridiculous.

    Anyone who cycles in there regularly knows to avoid the very boggy areas – they’re soul destroying on a good day – so behaviour of a group of (possibly) one-off race attendees should not be extrapolated to what will become regular habit.

    (*I’m told 🙄 that the Somme wasn’t all that muddy, but it’s a decent figue of speech)

    luke
    Free Member

    The New Forest isn’t the only area in the country to see the three native snakes, they can be found in the heathlnds in Dorset as well.

    campfreddie
    Free Member

    i live in the new forest and i know a fair amount about the workings of it. there are three completely different entities slugging it out to control the forest – the forestry commission (who farm it), english nature (who want people to visit it) and the verderers (who want to preserve it for the commoners and the animals).

    the verderers have the law on their side (oldest court of law in the land with the head verderer appointed by the queen) and do not like cyclists.

    unfortunately, this is not likely to change anytime soon.

    it frustrates me as a cyclist, but i can see where they are coming from. pretty much every place of natural beauty in the uk has been eroded away (in more ways than one). the verderers are hell-bent on preserving the natural balance of commoners, their animals and the land.

    in a way, becoming a national park has worked against them, as although it reduces opportunity for development, it also encourages tourism etc, which benefits english nature and the forestry commission (who have the campsites), but not the verderers, the livestock or the commoners.

    annoyingly, the existing cycle trails in the forest provide absolutely zero technical entertainment (might as well ride up and down the road). this does encourage riders to go ‘off piste’ which is all well and good when they are following logging routes or pony tracks, but without knowing it, they could easily cross a piece of land that looks nothing special, but is actually a nesting site or another site of delicate environmental balance.

    the best thing that the new forest could do would be to consult with the mountain bikers and develop a cross country trail centre. if there are good marked trails, why would anyone go off piste? when i go to afan, i certainly don’t stray off the marked trails.

    FieldMarshall
    Full Member

    the best thing that the new forest could do would be to consult with the mountain bikers and develop a cross country trail centre. if there are good marked trails, why would anyone go off piste? when i go to afan, i certainly don’t stray off the marked trails.

    Couldn’t agree more. I think that providing a dedicated area with more technical trails would satisfy a lot of riders who currently go “off-piste” to get their kicks. By not engaging with the MTBers and being so confrontational the Verderers et al are just making life harder/miserable for themselves.

    Whilst I agree that MTBers should be more considerate to the area they are riding in, as stated in an earliet post, i see much more damage being done by logging vehicles /animals and disturbance to wildlife due to dogs, than MTBers.

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