There is the usual tripe going around the internet, sample below:

Politics for the every day man!!!
Just one bit of politics from me, one bit only. A lot of this election is being based on tax payments and how the rich should pay more and how this isn’t fair and that isn’t fair.
But….if you came from nothing and grafted like mad, worked that overtime, did that extra shift, took that gamble on going for that job and coped with the stress that went with it, is it then fair to have to pay for generations of people on welfare, with no intention of working, of having child after child who in turn have numerous children all on welfare who all moan about the amount of tax rich people pay?
Our welfare system is awesome for those that need it, but like our NHS system it’s been abused.
So am I a Tory, am I ****, look at the state of the country, will I vote Labour? Will I ****, Corbyn and Abbott?? Please!

Much of this is easy to pick apart but I wanted to get an estimate of what these perceived feckless layabouts cost us. Is there a measure of the fabled “persistently unemployed” and how much of the budget they use up?

This visual is really helpful http://visual.ons.gov.uk/welfare-spending/

1% of welfare budget goes on unemployment. I imagine that doesn’t cover long term unemployed so those figures will be mixed up with benefits given to people who work on low incomes

The bulk of welfare spending is pensions.

I don’t know any actual facts but the spawn and his wife of the **** bitch that my dad married has not worked since the early 80s.
They have a house provided and I’m told a new (whether it’s brand new I don’t know) car every 3 years.
He apparently has a bad back but that doesn’t stop him being able to do house removals.
I have more facts on this tale.
An English man married an Australian and was living out there. He developed a serious heart complaint and had to leave australia to get free treatment here.
As he was disabled he was housed and given a car as well as his treatment.
They were then given free IVF. A child was born and they were rehoused. More IVF another child and a bigger house and car.

And people like zippy here, are how the bullshit over facts world that we live in now, persists.

Slackboy – that is a great start cheers. I have spent some time in areas of the northeast where there are actually no jobs whatsoever and have a fair amount of sympathy for people in those communities.

The next step is to estimate the number of actual layabouts as per zippkona’s experience, I expect we all know one or two, but it would be good to know what proportion of the population they are.

You’re shitting me, right?

I realise there are plenty of cases like the one zippykona describes above. Many of us probably know of one or two “undeserving” cases of people that screw the system. It’s not excusable – it is cheating.

They’re a useful distraction and easily demonised. We can blame them for our ills because they’re visible and they annoy the rest of us who go out and earn a living and pay our way. As Channel 4 and Five have shown, they make for entertaining poverty porn TV too.

There are bigger fish to fry if we want to spend less or get more money into the pot.

deadly, that is exactly my point.

And more importantly

Many of us probably know of one or two “undeserving” cases of people that screw the system. It’s not excusable – it is cheating.

You must accurately know that the one or two scroungers you know of are actually undeserving. Because you have seen their claim forms and know their situation intimately?

I don’t know any actual facts but…

OK from slackboys link

As for out of work people claiming Jobseeker’s Allowance and Universal Credit, there were 760,200 people claiming these benefits in January 2016

My assumption/bias is that the vast majority of these people have a valid reason for claiming. What I would like is an estimate of what percentage of the 760200 are the actual type of people that should be hated for their resistance to the work ethic. Then we can multiply this number by the cost per person of JSA and UC and see what all the fuss is about.

is it then fair to have to pay for generations of people on welfare, with no intention of working

The Rowntree Foundation did some research on multigenerational unemployment. They found that there were almost no families where three consecutive generations haven’t worked, and even two generations was rare.

But, the myth sells a lot of copies of the Daily Mail.

How much do in-work benefits, essentially a subsidy to employers who don’t pay a true living wage, cost us?

You could argue that a pool of unemployed people who are looking for work helps keep costs down for all of us as it lowers wages thus keeping the cost of the things we buy lower.

What we really ought to be looking at is what subsidising employment costs us. ‘In work’ benefits paid to those on low wages – a direct subsidy by the state of employers who then pay employees an amount they cannot afford to live on.

Well said wwaswas 🙂

I do feel there’s some scapegoating going on, are there some cheats, I don’t doubt it for a second.
My issue is with them representing a small number in terms of welfare spending, and the poorly targeted sanctions and benefit cuts that do damage to genuine people. That does real social damage to save welfare costs of a relative pittance.

Don’t hate the player, hate the game as they say in the hood.

myth of workless familes

from the article if you can’t be bothered:

But two-generational worklessness is far rarer – workless parents and grown-up children are found together in only 0.9% of households. As for homes with two generations that have never worked, the fraction drops further, to less than 0.1% of the total.

The truly double-generation long-term unemployed family is, then, a rare species. As for the politicians’ “third-generation” perma-idlers, these are on the critically endangered list – if not entirely fictional

The Joseph Rowntree Foundation set out to identify and investigate 20 such “never-worked” families in deprived Glasgow and Teesside, but it found not a single one.

Not to mention housing benefit going straight to private landlords.

Remeber also that unemployment is at its lowest level for 40 years accordinvg the government. If welfare spending is going up, its not because of unemployed folk. It will be because of benefit payments to those in work who don’t get paid enough to survive, pensions and social care.

If everyone unemployed went to work it would make F all difference to the situation we are in regarding the affordability of the welfare state.

Oddly, the one thing that might help is a massive influx of working age immigrants to boost productivity and tax revenue who then go home to retire in 30 years time.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/may/19/uk-needs-more-immigrants-to-avoid-brexit-catastrophe

All great points, I am now well armed for my facebook assault on my frothing tory/brexit family members thanks.

However one point I do not get

Not to mention housing benefit going straight to private landlords.

I’m not sure I agree with the meaning of this – 50% of JSA spend per claimant goes on food and necessities – ie straight in to TESCo’s bank account, nobody complains about this.
Housing benefit only goes to landlords because the govt didn’t build council houses, should they also build council supermarkets?

Remeber also that unemployment is at its lowest level for 40 years accordinvg the government

The problem is, they aren’t comparing apples to apples over the last 40 years, IMO. I think I’m right in saying that people on “zero hour contracts” are being classed as employed, for example.

Fact of the day.

55% of people who are classified as living in poverty come from a household where at least one person has a full time job.

The problem is, they aren’t comparing apples to apples over the last 40 years, IMO. I think I’m right in saying that people on “zero hour contracts” are being classed as employed, for example.

That’s true, but we cannot class these people as workshy scumbags, so it suits my needs to class them as employed even if morally they are not..

I must be bull shiter too as I have similar relations to Zippy.

My dad remarried to a woman who has never worked because she is disabled (one leg an inch shorter than the other from Polio). She has 3 children, two sons and a daughter.
The eldest of the sons works and has 3 kids and his partner is unemployed, The youngest of the kids has just finished basic for the navy. The other two have never had a job since leaving school.
The youngest son has 4 kids, two sons and two daughters. He has never worked and neither had two of his three partners. One son has job at Sainsburys, the other is still in education, there mother works. The two daughters have never worked, one has two kids (she got pregnant at 15) and the other is pregnant at the moment.
The daughter, the eldest of them all has 8 kids to god knows how many partners. She has never worked. The of the 5 that are of working age none have. Three of these daughters have taken after their mother are in a continuous state of pregnancy, whilst the sons are impregnating anything with a pulse.
They all bleat on about having no jobs whilst not looking for them either, their homes are destroyed by them and the kids but they don’t care because the council will fix it eventually or they’ll get another soon.
They are three generations into state hand outs as a way of life with the fourth already on its way.
My two brothers on the other hand both have Cerebral Palsy, had some real nasty jobs in the past but only one has ever been unemployed for less than 6 months.

I don’t know any actual facts but…

…I reckon…

Think about it this way.

In the last 12 months I think I got JSA for 6 of them.

That’s £73 a week I cost the country (plus 10 minutes of the JC+’s time each week and probably some backroom paperwork). That doesn’t even cover a decent food shop, let alone a cost of living any sort of life, it’s a token. And claiming that wasn’t easy, I’ve a masters degree in engineering and know how to read/write contracts but even I couldn’t figure out why I was being docked some weeks.

Now the kind of people you meet at the JC+, yes some of them (a vanishingly small proportion) seem to have stumbled straight in off the Jeremy Kyle set. But most of them are just normal people at their wits end with a run of bad luck being compounded by whatever state help they were getting being taken away. Without fail I think there was at least one person crying every week.

Even once you’ve filled in all the paperwork, you get a letter back saying “we agree that you have done everything required to claim JSA, however we won’t be backdating it for the past week that you missed because you’re not dead and therefore clearly didn’t need it”.

I got no housing benefit or council tax relief because that doesn’t kick in until you’re effectively homeless.

So in summary (Zippy et. al.) if you think there’s some sort of free ride available, then why don’t you quit your job and join the gravy train. You’d be an idiot not to.

In work benefits are a good thing. It helps to give extra money to those in need. Take two people on a low paid job. Someone with 2 kids needs more money than a single 22 yo working the same job low paid job. If the job paid enough to not for someone supporting two kids then the single 22 yo would be earning as much as someone who had years of training and experience. Makes the extra Hassel less worth while to train.

I also think it is safe to assume* that tax avoidance by corporations smashes benefit fraud into financial insignificance.

*(assuming as I do not have facts, but happy to be corrected)

55% of people who are classified as living in poverty come from a household where at least one person has a full time job.

Definitition of poverty includes comparison of income to national average so when pensions increase so does the number of people in poverty. Definition also includes things like having enough money to take the kids swimming once a week

£73 a week I cost the country (plus 10 minutes of the JC+’s time each week and probably some backroom paperwork). That doesn’t even cover a decent food shop

For one person £73 is a massive weekly food shop! Agreed it’s not a lot for all expenses but your claim it’s not a decent food shop is rediculous. Don’t spend that much between 2.5 people

I must be bull shiter too as I have similar relations to Zippy.

There are some people who take the piss. That doesn’t mean that they’re the norm.

Definition also includes things like having enough money to take the kids swimming once a week

What an absolute extravagance!

“Are there no prisons?”
“Plenty of prisons…”
“And the Union workhouses.” demanded Scrooge. “Are they still in operation?”
“Both very busy, sir…”

My wife helps to run the local food bank, with up to 20 people/couples/families coming for help each week. Every couple of weeks, someone who fits the tabloid stereotype uses the food bank, but generally they’re all people who have fallen on hard times through no fault of their own.

Definitition of poverty includes…(and so on, including some unrelated, and unsubstantiated Jambafacts)…

The “definitions” are variable, the govt measures both relative and absolute, and before and after housing costs.

For one person £73 is a massive weekly food shop! Agreed it’s not a lot for all expenses but your claim it’s not a decent food shop is rediculous. Don’t spend that much between 2.5 people

Stella and fags don’t come cheep.

But in all serious £73 goes nowhere. Just to have a car sat on the driveway cost £12 a week in tax and insurance. And to save money I got the bus to the JC+, so we’re already down to £56 or so.

Say I’m lucky and get an interview (depressingly unrealistic as it turned but hey we’re in a post truth world here) 20 miles of petrol costs another £4. So now were down into the low 50’s already and I’ve still not been shopping.

My share of the council tax is £25/week.

A mobile phone and internet connection so I can look for a job, even if the ‘TV’ part for the BT bill is ignored that’s £40 a month from me for half the line rental, basic broadband and a £10/month mobile sim. £10/week

Shit I’m down to £15

Electricity

Gas

Water

Bollocks, better sell a bike to cover those this month.

The mortgage – errrrrrrrr

And I’ve still not been to Tesco.

20 miles of petrol costs another £4.

Never was the phrase get on your bike more apt! 🙂

Never was the phrase get on your bike more apt!

Because that’s practical in an interview suit :p

And a few lines later;

Bollocks, better sell a bike to cover those this month.

I did actually sell my commuter

thisisnotaspoon – Member

Now the kind of people you meet at the JC+, yes some of them (a vanishingly small proportion) seem to have stumbled straight in off the Jeremy Kyle set. But most of them are just normal people at their wits end with a run of bad luck being compounded by whatever state help they were getting being taken away. Without fail I think there was at least one person crying every week.

This, all the way. My job centre’s in a fairly shitty area too. Yep some pisstakers, and some unintentionally unemployable (the girl in her PJs who didn’t understand why it was a problem that she was 30 minutes late- she wasn’t taking the piss, she just didn’t get it), but mostly employable people who want to work. The 10 week review meeting they make you do is like the distillation of the job centre experience- achieves absolutely nothing except for making people more desperate, including the staff.

I think no matter how much of a horrible **** you are, you couldn’t keep sneering at the unemployed after a few weeks of this. Well there’s exceptions to every rule and I bet they’d be very proud to be the exception but if you’re a functioning human being you see it as it is.

Now the kind of people you meet at the JC+, yes some of them (a vanishingly small proportion) seem to have stumbled straight in off the Jeremy Kyle set. But most of them are just normal people at their wits end with a run of bad luck being compounded by whatever state help they were getting being taken away. Without fail I think there was at least one person crying every week.

this!

made redundant in 2013 and it was an eye opening experience,
claiming benefits is not easy!!, you can get sanctioned seemingly at random at any point

Hounslow job centre has to be one of the most depressing places in the world,
I distinctly remember 1 young lad looking for any excuse not to have to do kitchen work (allergic to heat 😉 )
Virtually everyone there was trying to figure out how to get out of the trap they were in.
got sent on a jobskills & cv course, big array of people there that I got to know, class of 20 every one of them wanted a job, quite a few had been drafted in to the olympics but had found nothing since then, varrying levels of education, same story of sending out cv after cv to get turned down for a minimum wage job that still didnt pay enough

Definition also includes things like having enough money to take the kids swimming once a week

yeah kids shouldnt be allowed to exercise!
even better try finding a council pool that isnt full up by 10am on a saturday!

Still its easier to talk about the definition of poverty being to vague than to think that there might be hungry children out there with shit lives that we could be helping, but choose not to, because…. Austerity

That’s £73 a week I cost the country (plus 10 minutes of the JC+’s time each week and probably some backroom paperwork). That doesn’t even cover a decent food shop

You will get hell of a lot more for £73 at Lidl or Aldi than at Sainsburys, I can tell you that much! I suspect the same could be said compared to Tesco and possibly even Asda.

It might also be worth getting an NUS card if anyone in the family meets the criteria that might not be as strict as you expect, they give 10% off at Co-Op for a start.

Lidl or Aldi

Normally in “drive to” locations. An extra cost even if you have to take the bus.

The 10 week review meeting they make you do is soul destroying for absolutely everyone involved including the staff…

I think no matter how much of a horrible **** you are, you couldn’t keep sneering at the unemployed after a few weeks of this. Well there’s exceptions to every rule and I bet they’d be very proud to be the exception but if you’re a functioning human being you see it as it is.

absolutely

when all those Tory MPs were trying to pretend I, Daniel Blake was just made up, it really shone a light on how unpleasant and detached they are