I accidentally came across this review of a new Husqvarna TR650 motorbike. A 650cc “adventure” motorbike with a single cylinder BMW engine.
Husqvarna TR650 review

I haven’t been into motorbikes for a while but it looks like a decent quality motorbike and it costs around £5200 new.

Now, how the fuc# does a brand new motorbike with all the mechanical complexities involved cost the same (or much less) as a high end DH or XC bicycle?

example

I understand that all the RRPs add up on a high end bicycle but I don’t understand how it can cost anywhere near the same amount to manufacture?

Can someone please explain

My recent hardtail build came in at over £4k, my mate recently bought a new 2012 250cc motocross bike and a shedload of cheap mx clothing for a similar price – i am finding it hard to justify it as well but i tell myself that i will have more fun on my hardtail (possibly?), and it will be cheaper to run (possibly?) than his mx bike and i’ll have less chance of injuring myself (possibly?).

To be honest i can’t explain it any further than economies of scale/profit vs market share/small volume production vs massive profitable company who can tool up easily and have worldwide distribution and sales to match vs small company in a shed.

I’m perfectly happy wi my choice though, i get to play on his bike as well 😀

But i am almost tempted to investigate that ^ Husqvarna further……

all I can think is its a more competitive market, if they weren’t selling 6k mtb’s they wouldn’t be trying to sell them

If a motorcycle dealer were able to sell at RRP he would retain around 15% of the purchase price after VAT. That is a massive “if” as most motorcycle dealers have to discount in one way or another so RRP is seldom achieved.
I’m not sure what the margin is on mtb’s but you can be sure it is considerably more than 15% on current year bikes.
Different market sectors work on different margins and that has always been the case. High Street Clothing retailers work on around 200% mark up as, in the main, they go direct to a manufacturer to source their stock. White goods retailers work on closer to 12%. At the end of the day if your product is not competitive in its sector it won’t sell.
I know that doesn’t answer the OP’s query but it seems to be a historical thing that bicycles have a bigger mark up than motorcycles.

The 650’s bee mm use are Austrian Rotax units not there own !,however this thread is about costs,if they cost the same new say 5j,and if you ride them the same amount of hours over there designed terrain,not roads !,I think you’d be hard pushed to separate them..tyres chains crash damage depreciation etc ..

In 2007/2008 I did 40 odd track days on a brand new R1,with brand new tyres for every one,often changing the rear at lunchtime !..my 4 grand mtb is a lot cheaper to run I can tell ya !..

All to do with how many you’re making.
10,000’s of the engine, wheels, switches etc. for the motorbike,
Maybe 1000 for the MTB.

The initial outlay for my motocross bikes have always been similar to that of my mountain bikes, which I’ve never been able to understand and has always grieved me when I buy a new mountain bike. Likewise the long term value is far better on a motocross bike. I usually swap my MX bikes each season and on average it costs me about a grand to swap a current year machine for the following years machine. Likewise if I sell an MX bike privately I’ll get a good price for it. I just sold an old 2007 suzuki RM 250 for £2400. I paid £3500 for it brand new in 2007 and it’s had a hard life. The moment I get dirt on a mountain bike I’ve almost certainly lost a third of its value in a private sale.

Buying mountain bikes is not something I do very often anymore.

I think maybe you are not comparing like with like.

That Husky is just a basic motorcycle, one up from a commuter, whereas you are comparing it against a top-end MTB. Maybe if you just compared it to an equivilent MTB/bicycle you’d have a better comparision.

At a basic level you can buy a bicycle for £100, and a powered 50cc Scooter for £1000. Neither are quaility items, but both will do their jobs.

And if you want to compare a top-end MTB against anything, maybe something like a high-end watch or designer clothing would be a good one. As both are bought by ‘enthusiasts’ and their prices bear no comparision with basic items. For example, £9 jeans in ASDA vs £70 in SuperDry.

For example, £9 jeans in ASDA vs £70 in SuperDry.

Not the best comparison..

But comparing top of a market in trail/dh to bottom of the market motor bikes is about right. Everything got cheap/basic and stuck together for the lowest possible price.

Only did the jeans as I knew the price.

I’d bought a pair in ASDA a couple of weeks ago as I’d holed mine that day, and the misses bought me a pair back from SuperDry at the weekend.

But watches are probably a better one.

b r has it really. Easy to forget that I can go out and buy a DH bike that is very nearly identical to what the factory teams ride. Go buy a Honda MX bike and see how much it costs to make it equivalent to their factory race bikes 😯

When I raced enduro it was costing me less to maintain the motorbike than the mountainbike. Depreciation is low too as fevouredimage said.

While I accept perhaps the above comparison is not like for like, what about bits for both types of bike? A few years ago when I was doing M/bike enduros I bought a pair of new bars of the same make I had bought for the mtb. The mtb bars were more money despite not having the cross bar and machined clamps to hold it in place. These were both marketed as premium racing products so why the difference?
Economies of scale maybe but surely there are a lot more mtbs around than off-road m/bikes.

These were both marketed as premium racing products so why the difference?

MTB bars being a load more complex to manufacture due to weight being a bigger concern?

but surely there are a lot more mtbs around than off-road m/bikes.

yup, if you look at the lower end of the market where things are cheaper

It’s just what the market will pay. Motocross tends to be ordinary dads footing the bill, often for more than one kid. Mountainbikers are middle aged IT managers. They spend what they can afford.

It’s the “you could buy a car for that” argument. I’d turn it around – why is the motorbike so cheap? I’ve worked on cars and motorbikes a reasonable amount, and one reason I like bicycles is they’re so well made compared to bikes and motorbikes.

Look at the welding on a Ducati frame. It’s awful compared to the welding on even a cheapish Taiwanese MTB. Apart from engines and some other parts, the precision and quality of motor vehicle manufacturing is quite a bit lower – plus it’s done in much larger numbers.

On a £5k bike everything – and I mean every tiny detail – has been designed and redesigned and optimised for performance and low weight, using pretty advanced manufacturing technologies and materials. The motorbike? Not so much. Cheap frame made out of box-section steel, bolt in an engine made in massive numbers, job done.

Regarding motocross, also don’t forget there are only about 5 big and a couple of medium manufacturers, who only sell complete bikes normally in a couple of models with lots of common parts. Helps to massively reduce complexity and increase volumes, driving cost down.

I don’t have the numbers to argue the case, but I would suspect there are still a lot more’quality’ mtbs about than off road m/bikes even including the nobbers who just buy full spec crossers to roar up and down the local pit tip, [oh, lots of mtbers do the equivalent , shock!]

The cost of some mountain bikes amazes me.You can buy a brand new ktm200exc with all the road kit, which in the right hands is capable of winning a round of the world enduro championship ,for under 6k! Less than the price of some of the mountain bikes you see that have been bought for riding round follow the dog every other weekend.
I’m pretty certain most of the “entry level” mountain bikes ,spesh cambers, giant trances,etc for around a grand would be perfectly adequate for MOST peoples needs if they were honest.Although i must admit,if i had plenty of cash i too would probably have a carbon tallboy hung up on the garage wall!(and a ktm200exc of course!)
The good thing about mountain biking though is that once you’ve shelled out for the bike and gear ,it becomes a relatively cheap hobby with plenty of places to go and ride for absolutely nothing.

Are you sure that KTM didn’t have many thousands of ££ spent on it by the time it won a World Championship?

I remember reading an American mag many years ago which had an off the peg Honda race MXer from one of the US tuning houses. Price of that was more like $25,000 iirc – more than 10 years ago. And that was still a way short of factory spec. Turning an off the peg high end DH or XC bike into something comparible with the world’s best would cost very little in comparison (custom suspension tune and you’re pretty much there)

The tyres for my Enduro, Trail and Trials motorcycles are the same or similar cost to the ones I fit to my mountain bike.

That bugs me. They still come in a range of stickyness, rock, mud or sand or whatever flavours, just like bike ones. But are much larger and take more punishment.

Its not economy of scale, there are probably no more Trials bikes than say DH mountain bikes.

My KTM525 cost new less than I paid for my Transition Covert. Some bikes are more expensive though, my KTM 990 is 12,000.

Are you sure that KTM didn’t have many thousands of ££ spent on it by the time it won a World Championship?

this +1

You’re comparing the top of the range £6k MTB against the ‘entry’ level motorbike. A set of top end motorbike forks would cost more than either! Makes a set of Fox 40’s seem like a bargain.

And even if ‘in the right hands’ it could have won a world championship, you could say ‘in the right hands’ a £1k bike could win the DH championships.

The tyres for my Enduro, Trail and Trials motorcycles are the same or similar cost to the ones I fit to my mountain bike.

That bugs me. They still come in a range of stickyness, rock, mud or sand or whatever flavours, just like bike ones. But are much larger and take more punishment.

Yes, but rubber and nylon are both pretty cheep, compared to the tooling and paying someone to stand over the machine making them. I’d hazard a guess the cost of making a tyre is pretty much the same regardless of how big you make it, a bit like brake pads cost the same for a car or a bike.

Yes, but rubber and nylon are both pretty cheep, compared to the tooling and paying someone to stand over the machine making them. I’d hazard a guess the cost of making a tyre is pretty much the same regardless of how big you make it, a bit like brake pads cost the same for a car or a bike.

And the actual cost to sell is probably more for an MTB tyre than a car tyre, based upon nos sold.

yes I agree,but what i was trying to say is a box standard ktm for less than 6k is by no means a shitter and is a very capable race bike.It has ,high quality long travel 330mm white power suspension,powerful engine,electronics,gearbox,etc.You clearly get more for your money.In my opinion anyway. 😀

Can someone please explain?

Yes, allow me.

Currently, cycling is the favoured pastime of tossers worldwide.
Prices have been hiked up as much as possible in order to part said tossers from their money before they realise it actually takes a bit of effort and move on to another means of displaying their wealth, like hi-fi or photography.

You can dress it up any way you like, but that’s the reality.

Sad, isn’t it?

yes I agree,but what i was trying to say is a box standard ktm for less than 6k is by no means a shitter and is a very capable race bike.It has ,high quality long travel 330mm white power suspension,powerful engine,electronics,gearbox,etc.You clearly get more for your money.In my opinion anyway.

Yes, but the engine isn’t that complicated, a single cylinder 2 stroke. The suspension probably cost’s a comparable amount to the MTB and probably has simpler internals, the frame’s welded aluminium, probably the majority plain gauge tubes and box sections, the MTB is a carbon monocoque, etc etc.

And you’re still ignoring that you can get an MTB for £2k which is 99% of the £6k bike, you can’t (well you can get a Chinese moped) get a motorbike for that.

Some people want a £6k mountainbike, they have £6k and a hobby, if their hobby was MX they’d probably buy a £6k MX bike, if it was watches they’d spend £6k on a watch. 90% of the country probbaly feels that STW are the idiots spending over £100 on a push bike!

The downhill bike you can get for 5k will be very similar to, say, sam hills’.
The mx bike for 5k, apart from the stickers, will not be very similar to james stewarts’.

Bicycles are a rip off. Simple.

Bicycles are a rip off. Simple.

Not really, since folk who have no interest in motorbikes would suggest that I could buy a car the £10k I’ve spent each on my last few motorbikes.

The biking industry has the following unique factors:

a) No manufacturer makes the whole bike~ the vast majority make the frame only, on which a number of components from other companies are installed~ each of these component manufacturers has their own profits to make, and want to maintain profit margins in the aftermarket sector, so even with volume discounts to frame manufacturers, the overall prices are likely to be artificially elevated to achieve this.
In the moto industry, whilst manufacturer may contract out work to other firms (eg for radiators, electronics etc), they have the overall power, as they can find plenty of firms to make components to the specifications that they dictate.

b) The sheer diversity of frame manufacturers~ whilst the moto industry has 8-10 big players across all sectors, the cycling industry has several times more~ this means the volumes per company will be far less

c) Due to the inherent need to achieve light weight with cycling components, they are more consumable~ I’d buy a 5 year old Moto without too much concern, but a 5 year old bike frame is likely to be well on it’s way to fatigue and ruin.

In summary, if anything, it is the component manufacturers (of who there are far fewer) who are benefiting most and perhaps working on a monopoly basis to elevate prices.

Bicycles are a rip off. Simple.

Really? £110

Ben, you’re having a laugh about the welding on a Ducati right? You know your stuff but I think you’re way off there mate. I’ve was looking at a push bike frame that cost £450 the other day which has piss poor welding. Lots of undercut bits and other inconsistent looking welds.

Spoon – Very nice bike you have there. But here’s another example of cycling rip offs.

Push bike bars
http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=63501&gclid=CK2I17GOzbUCFYbHtAodGi8AOQ

motorbike bars
http://www.intobikes.co.uk/products/001828/Renthal-Road-Bike-Ultra-Low-Unbraced-Handlebar?src=fro&highlight=50857

I see what your saying but rusty spanner above hit the nail on the head for me.Anyway below is a paragraph cut from motocross action from a few years ago when they tested James stewarts yamaha that he managed to ride err quite quickly!!!

When we mentioned that James Stewart’s YZ450F was mostly stock, we weren’t lying. It is deceiving because there are a few parts that look factory, but in reality they are just stock parts. Oscar Wirdeman and Paul DeLaurier both handled the wrenching duty for Stewart during his championship run, and they paid very close attention to the details. They cut the sheathing off the stock front brake line and clutch cable to reduce weight. The front brake caliper is also an OEM (original equipment manufacturer) part, but it has been sand-blasted and anodized to give it a factory look. L&M makes their own rear brake snake, as well as a tether system attached to the carburetor so that it doesn’t pop off through the whoops. Also, the gas petcock has been cut to prevent Stewart from accidentally turning the fuel to the off position with his leg (or anyone else accidentally shutting it off between heats). The subframe is stock, but has been cut 10mm to lower the seat. James didn’t have any problem with the seat height until the AMA instituted a rule at the beginning of the Supercross series stating that no extra dirt could be brought into the starting gate area. The AMA rescinded the rule after only a few races, but Stewart stuck with the lowered subframe because he had grown accustomed to it.

I see what people are saying but for someone who rides both the MTB is cheaper in the long run once you have it.No MOT/Tax/Fuel/separate insurance all adds up.You dont get a Life time warranty on a Motorbike chassis like you do on a Trek/Spec etc.2 years on Huskys/30 days on KTM.
KTM200EXC is a calmer breast than it use to be.2005 was a wild one hit the power band so quick was alot to handle.Great ride once you got use to it but crazy at times and did suffer abit from the famous KTM Tank slapper 😀