Viewing 35 posts - 1 through 35 (of 35 total)
  • contractual working hours query
  • donks
    Free Member

    Im in a very slight dispute with my employer over the hours I work.

    I have been in their employment for over 4 years now with no issues however in the last year they have raised their office staff from “just me” to 15 of us and as a result it has been noticed that I am not working as many hours as the others.

    I dug out my contract and it states that normal working hours are 8.30 – 5.30…..however there is no mention of lunch in the contract…anywhere? So my argument was initially that I was stepping out for lunch (either one or half hour)and that the worked hours included this break as it did not state anywhere that breaks were not paid.

    Now work are stating that the working hours do not cover the lunch period and that if I choose to take lunch this time is added to my working day. Ok fair enough and not uncommon, but surely the contract should state that the working hours do NOT include any lunch taken otherwise it seems very ambiguous.

    To be fair this never came up before because the firm were very small and I guess the employers were happy that the work was getting done so just never said anything about the lunch taken, but now with far more staff it becomes an issue.

    I have a fairly good suspicion that I have no leg to stand on by arguing that the contract does not state that the working hours did not include any lunch taken. In fact the contract does not state the overall total working hours it only states the start and finish times. If it did state the overall hours this would have been clarification enough I guess.

    Anyone on here know about such contractual matters?

    njee20
    Free Member

    Legally you have to have a 30 minute lunch brunch in that, I’m not sure they can really argue that that is in addition to your contracted hours.

    IANAL

    plyphon
    Free Member

    Either way, sounds like you’ll be signing a new contract soon.

    Are you happy/willing to walk away from this job amicably and with your head high? These type of disputes only really get solved if you’re ready to put your balls on the line.

    Most people aren’t ready/willing to do that, and as such the company walks all over them and nothing changes.

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    NewRetroTom
    Full Member

    Sounds like a crazy contract to only state start and finish times and no total hours.

    As above you are entitled a lunch break (but only 20 mins):
    https://www.gov.uk/rest-breaks-work/overview

    nickjb
    Free Member

    If you’ve been working 8.30 – 5.30 including taking time out for lunch for the last 4 years without anybody questioning it until now then that is your contracted hours. That’s my understanding, definitely not a lawyer though.

    n0b0dy0ftheg0at
    Free Member

    I believe UK employment law stipulates employees must get a 20 minute break if they have a shift that will last longer than six hours, whether this is paid or not is down to the employer.

    Not sure if it’s UK law or company policy, but if you are interrupted during your break by something work-related, the 20-minutes timer gets restarted.

    Now as to your situation, you could argue that paid lunch breaks have been custom and practice for some time.

    BIANAL. 😉

    tjagain
    Full Member

    If the contract is does not say if the break is paid or unpaid then neither of you can rely on this however the start and finish time is and is enforceable- and you have a legal right to breaks. In a shift of that length its a 20 min break. so I would say from your contract you work 8.30 – 5.30 with a 20 min break.

    Also after 4 years yo have a good argument for custom and practice ie that what you have been doing for the last 4 years has become your contractual entitlement

    Do they really intend the staff to work a 45 hour week?

    https://www.tuc.org.uk/workplace-issues/basic-rights-work/c-your-basic-rights/06-working-time/working-time-rights

    https://worksmart.org.uk/work-rights/pay-and-contracts/contract-terminology/what-meant-custom-and-practice

    TheBrick
    Free Member

    Beprepared to quit. It’s only because people out up with this kind of HR but picking that it is tried.

    donks
    Free Member

    Do they really intend the staff to work a 45 hour week

    Yes.

    To be fair they are not too draconian and are fairly reasonable but obviously with all the new employees it needs to be bottomed out.

    In terms of the legal requirement for 20mins break they will most likely say this is not paid so will be potentially adding this to all of our working days and new contracts will no doubt be drawn up if this goes any further.

    woody2000
    Full Member

    They can’t add extra to the working day, but they can not pay you for it. Adding it to the working day would be a double win for them!

    patriotpro
    Free Member

    Time to move on OP

    tjagain
    Full Member

    Can’t change your contract without a good business reason and / or your consent

    You work 8.30 – 5.30 – thats your hours. they cannot add 20 mins to that. You are entitled to a 20 min break in those hours. ( IIRC and it wasn’t obvious on that TUC page – go over a 9 hr day you are entitled to two breaks – not sure onthat one tho)

    chewkw
    Free Member

    The company has nothing to stand on because no shift can last for 9 hour without break. 😯

    donks
    Free Member

    Good point on the adding of time to the hours noted by them. However if they then dont pay for the break then they would no doubt deduct this from my /and others salary moving forward? This wont go down well.

    It seems to me this is a bit of a buggers muddle and they will need to either make a statement that the break will now be included within the working day or risk pissing everyone off.

    ninfan
    Free Member

    “Fine, as long as you realise that the inevetable result of that will be that not a single person here will ever again turn in early, or stay five minutes late, in order to finish something off, of reply to an email out of hours, or when they are on holiday, Your call”

    I recall a similar discussion some years ago when the boss explained how “07.45 start” meant not just in the building, but changed, at our workstations, ready to begin work at 07.45 He was most upset when he realised that “16.00 finish” meant us all being packed up, changed, in our street clothes, ready to walk out the door at 16.00h 😀

    taxi25
    Free Member

    Member
    If the contract is does not say if the break is paid or unpaid then neither of you can rely on this however the start and finish time is and is enforceable- and you have a legal right to breaks. In a shift of that length its a 20 min break. so I would say from your contract you work 8.30 – 5.30 with a 20 min break

    This 100%
    Are there really companies that would even consider requiring workers to work a nine hour shift without a break !!! I’ve been self employed for the last 28yrs and must be out of touch with the modern work place 🙁

    bruneep
    Full Member

    Not unheard of Mrs b going 12hrs without a break. But that’s the NHS for ya.

    Fed up telling to complain but her managers dismiss it as we’re all busy, what can we do?

    taxi25
    Free Member

    Amazing, last proper job I had was 8.30-4.30. Hour for lunch in the pub and two 10min tea breaks. Genuinely feel sorry for the modern worker !!

    maccruiskeen
    Full Member

    I dug out my contract and it states that normal working hours are 8.30 – 5.30

    ow with far more staff it becomes an issue.

    Is it the case that the newer employees have a more detailed contract and that details in their terms are being used to fill in the blanks in your contract retrospectively?

    Or do they have the same wording and are just choosing to interpret it differently to you?

    donks
    Free Member

    Is it the case that the newer employees have a more detailed contract and that details in their terms are being used to fill in the blanks in your contract retrospectively?

    I did wonder this and will try to carefully sound someone out tomorrow.

    Ultimately i only want to know my rights or possibilities here for the sake of clarity as I have fairly flexible work life and work from home twice a week and am often on site or meetings etc on others so not office bound.

    km79
    Free Member

    I would interpret that to be a 40 hour week, 8 hour day, 0830 to 1730 with an hours unpaid lunch break.

    Cougar
    Full Member

    I would interpret that to be a 40 hour week, 8 hour day, 0830 to 1730 with an hours unpaid lunch break.

    +1. I’d hazard that was almost certainly the original intention.

    The last time I encountered this sort of bobbins was many years ago. My response was “I can work to rule if you like, but you won’t like it.” Need me to work back ten minutes to finish a project? Sorry, it’s 4:59pm and 59 seconds, see you tomorrow.

    If work are implying that eating as a choice, I would be a) asking them to confirm that they’re wilfully breaking the law and b) jobseeking.

    I am not working as many hours as the others.

    That’s their own stupid fault, this affects you how?

    Cougar
    Full Member

    Are you salaried or paid hourly, incidentally?

    PiknMix
    Free Member

    Are there really companies that would even consider requiring workers to work a nine hour shift without a break

    Unfortunately yes.

    tjagain
    Full Member

    ninfan – Member

    I recall a similar discussion some years ago when the boss explained how “07.45 start” meant not just in the building, but changed, at our workstations, ready to begin work at 07.45 He was most upset when he realised that “16.00 finish” meant us all being packed up, changed, in our street clothes, ready to walk out the door at 16.00h

    You are wrong on this one ninfan – hours of work start and end ready for work. Boss was right.

    grumpysculler
    Free Member

    You are wrong on this one ninfan – hours of work start and end ready for work. Boss was right.

    It depends on the work and context.

    We have staff who work in clean rooms and it takes them a good 20 minutes or so to get suited, booted and through the showers before entering. Similar on the way out. That can only be done on work premises and so it is part of their working hours. That would fit ninfan’s description.

    Me turning up in sweaty cycle kit then having a shower and getting changed before starting work would be a different matter (but in the office we mostly work on the basis of neither the employer nor the manager taking the piss so I don’t pay too much attention)

    ste_t
    Free Member

    Iirc 20 minute break for 6 hour shift plus an extra 5 minutes per hour above the 6. So if shift is 10 hours, breaks to be 40 minutes but no breaks need to be paid.

    donks
    Free Member

    Are you salaried or paid hourly, incidentally?

    Salaried

    The more I look at it by the fact they have specified a start and finish time but not mentioned a break which it apears they are legally required to provide then it would be deemed to be included… and paid for as my salary is fixed?

    Cougar
    Full Member

    You are wrong on this one ninfan – hours of work start and end ready for work. Boss was right.

    Legally you might be right. Morally, your hours of work start and finish at the front door. See what Grumpy said.

    If your job requires you to walk the length of the building, log into a phone, boot up a PC, start up ticketing software and be seated ready to take phone calls from 9am then they should be contracting you to start at 8:45, not 9.

    Cougar
    Full Member

    Salaried

    The more I look at it by the fact they have specified a start and finish time but not mentioned a break which it apears they are legally required to provide then it would be deemed to be included… and paid for as my salary is fixed?

    So it’s an irrelevance then. Their argument is essentially “you have to stop taking lunch” to which the response is clearly “GTF and watch me.”

    Faced with that degree of pissantery I’d be taking 59 minutes and 59 seconds of lunch every day, even if it meant spending 50 minutes reading the staff noticeboard. I’d also be rallying the other employees to do the same as they’re being exploited and working an extra hour every day that they don’t have to.

    km79
    Free Member

    My salary is fixed, contract states start and finish time is Mon to Fri 0830 to 1730, but it does also state 40 hours per week. Mentions nothing about lunch in my contract but it is clear to me that it is one hour unpaid each day as I can do the sums.

    Your contract is missing the hours per week you are contracted to work. I’d start by getting that agreed before anything else.

    tjagain
    Full Member

    Donks – if you are salaried but you don’t have an hourly rate unless its specified. I am salaried but paid by the hour

    Cougar – I have to change before and after shift – My shift starts at 7 and I am changed and ready to go then

    Cougar
    Full Member

    For context – I’m not naturally militant.

    I’m lucky enough to have the world’s most flexible working hours, I’m contracted for 7.5h/day / 37.5h/week, and I’m at liberty to work over and take back time as I want / need. If I worked 20 hours or 50 hours the chances are that no-one would notice.

    For my role it’s a perfect arrangement; I’m not on call but if something goes catastrophically wrong at midnight I’d be happy to muck in and help out. When WannaCry broke, my initial involvement was taking part in a phone call on the Sunday to provide advice, the later consequence was that I worked all hours over the next few weeks fixing shit. The longer term out-of-hours planned work I claimed overtime for, but that initial two hours on the phone on that Sunday (at double time so half a day’s work) I didn’t even bother claiming because as far as I was concerned work were in credit at that point for times I’d needed to duck out early or take a long lunch due to issues at home. If I had claimed it it would have been paid without question, but I’m trusted to manage my own time and too Aspie to contemplate taking the piss.

    Alternatively, you can be standing at the front door at 9:02 tapping your wrist. And as I said earlier, we can do it that way instead, but it benefits no-one.

    Cougar
    Full Member

    Cougar – I have to change before and after shift – My shift starts at 7 and I am changed and ready to go then

    Sure. I stand by my statement though, it’s legally fine but morally wrong IMHO.

Viewing 35 posts - 1 through 35 (of 35 total)

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