Like it or not, Hamas are committed to remove the state of Israel.

can you blame them? after 60+ years of oppresssion what did you expect?
maybe if Israel hadn’t stolen the majority of the Palestinian land then things would be different and Hamas wouldn’t have no justification or support for their commitment to remove Israel

There are Arab villages throughout Israel, they can live side by side but Hamas cannot and never will.

really? you mean the small pockets of Arab settlements where they are treated like third class citizens? where they are not given the same privileges to work, education, receive health care, own property/businesses as Israeli Jews? where they are still required to pass through military checkpoints? where restrictions are placed upon them over where they are allowed to travel?
you expect all Palestinians to live under rules of apartheid and accept the dehumanisation and humiliation they are subjected to?

The concept of a village does not exist, small communities are built in defendable positions, are surrounded by fencing and there is a rota for guard duty. If travelling between towns you would take your hand gun without question.

I’m given to understand that that’s a reality only around the very loopiest settlements where relations with Palestinians are at their nadir. along the coast and away from the PNA area it’s much calmer. I would also point out the involvement of those same loopy settlers in price tagging etc.

minimising casualties by targeting schools and hospitals with air strikes and artillery bombardment? Its certainly a novel approach. How would you say its going? Just remind me what the death toll is again? 80% of whom are civilians, according to the UN.

You might want to read up on how Nato did in the Kosovo intervention back in 1999 – residential areas, couple of hospitals, Chinese embassy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualties_during_Operation_Allied_Force
http://www.hrw.org/reports/2000/nato/Natbm200-01.htm

maybe if Israel hadn’t stolen the majority of the Palestinian land then things would be different and Hamas wouldn’t have no justification or support for their commitment to remove Israel

Fatah over on the west bank aren’t committed to the destruction of Israel, aren’t firing missiles at Israeli civilians, and by some strange coincidence aren’t being bombed. If Israel is so committed to wiping out the palestinian population, why is it only the area firing the missiles that they are attacking?

Egypt are happy to watch hamas get butchered as they have a similar pogrom ongoing against their assossciates; the muslim brotherhood, who theyve just decided to execute a sizeable chunk of en masse, yup sounds like israel and the egyptian government are perfect bedfellows

the current Egyptian government is not even a legitimate one. the one that was democratically elected was led by Mohammed Morsi, leader of the Muslim brotherhood. he was ousted in a coup d’etat and replaced by General Sisi who has since forced out the Muslim Brotherhood in a similarly brutal manner.
the MB were pro-Hamas and recognised them as the democratically elected party for Gaza, whereas the Sisi regime does not recognise Hamas as legitimate.
i wouldnt be surprised to know that Sisi had assistance of some kind from the Israeli government in carrying out the coup to bring him to power, as having a neighbouring country that is sympathetic/allied towards its own policies would serve its own political interests.

i wouldnt be surprised to know that Sisi had assistance of some kind from the Israeli government in carrying out the coup to bring him to power, as having a neighbouring country that is sympathetic/allied towards its own policies would serve its own political interests.

Ah, all part of the conspiracy

How many rockets does Hamas fire at Egypt ?

You are evidently entirely unaware of the activity of the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt vis a vis the regime.

Today Palestinians armed with fighter jets, attack helicopters and tanks supplied by Iran and Russia, invaded Israel and indiscriminately bombed residential areas, market places, schools, synagogues and hospital, disabled centres and even UN centres killing over 1900 people, mainly children and women, injuring over 9000 people and destroying water supply, sewerage treatment plants, power station, roads and basic public infrastructure.

World leaders express outrage and utter condemnation at the Palestinian people. They lambast them as terrorists for wishing to destroy Israel. Muslim leaders across the globe are thrust in front of the camera and asked if they condemn the Palestinian acts of terror? The world’s illegitimate leaders, dictators and despots line up in front of Washington and Tel Aviv to send their condolences for the loss of precious Jewish lives and promise to compensate with money and favours to the Israeli/Jewish people.

The world unites to protect the Jewish people of Israel and promises to punish Hamas for carrying out the savage attack!

All these robust denunciations would be fair and justified if Palestinians ever did anything like that since the establishment of the illegal state of Israel.

They have never done anything like that.

On the other hand Israel has carried out the following acts of genocide against the Palestinian people and more shamefully the world leaders remain mute and impotent to do anything:

In the Gaza Strip:
* Bombing schools, residences, mosques and hospitals.

* Targeting children, such as those playing on a Gaza beach, killing four of them.

* Bombing without regard to the safety of ‘non-combatants’.

* Blockading all Gaza’s borders: land, sea and air.

* Turning off the water supply to Gaza’s residents.

* Destroying reservoirs that Palestinians use for drinking water.

In the West Bank:
* Moving hundreds of thousands of Israelis into the occupied territory.

* Displacing hundreds of thousands of residents by destroying entire cities.

* Restricting certain roads to ‘Israeli only’.

* Establishing countless checkpoints within the West Bank, making movement from one area to another that should take a few minutes, last for hours.

* Depriving residents of needed medical assistance.

And 60 years of occupation has left:
• 7 million Palestinian refugees (4.3 million registered with the UNHCR); 85% of Christian Palestinians have fled.

• 1.5 million Palestinian Israelis live under race-based Apartheid laws (Nazi- and Apartheid-style compulsory race-based ID at all times; race-based marriage prohibition laws; race-based discrimination over property acquisition, property rights, social participation, travel in their own country and to family reunions).

• 4 million occupied Palestinians are held as prisoners in increasingly abusive conditions in what outstanding Jewish American scholar Professor Noam Chomsky describes as a “Prison”.

• They are held without charge or trial in effectively several major Concentration Camps – Gaza, Samaria and Judaea; their capital city has been stolen and violated together with the Third most Sacred site in Islam.

• Post-invasion excess deaths (violent and non-violent avoidable deaths from bombs or bullets or deprivation, respectively) now total 0.3 million and post-invasion under-5 infant deaths total 0.2 million.

• Annual Occupied Palestinian avoidable under-5 infant deaths total 2,400

• Annual violent deaths total about 800 (20% children);

• Annual excess deaths total 5,000 – deaths in custody at the hands of a racist, Apartheid regime.

• It has cost the American taxpayer about $3 trillion plus a further $3.5 trillion accrual cost of the racist Zionist-backed War on Terror.

The world leaders don’t say much against Israel and even when they do it is very tame and often blame the Palestinians unequivocally for all the evil Israel perpetrates. This stupidity must end now! Israel must be brought to justice for its catalogue of crimes against Palestinian people.

Where are the Jewish leaders and why don’t we see the Jewish leaders and rabbis paraded in front of TV screens condemning the 6th attack on UN schools in Gaza, 20th attack on hospitals and 2000th attack on civilians? Where are the Jewish voices of reason? Have they all lost their conscience in blind support of Israel? What could be more cowardly than killing sleeping children, elderly men and women?

Israel commits these heinous crimes yet the Jewish community stays silent! Judaism has been highjacked by the Zionist extremists and you are not condemning it loud enough!

Israel must be peacefully dismantled and one state for all people must be restored. Muslims, Christians and Jews are all entitled to equal access to the holy land and as equal citizens with equal rights in one single state for all.

Konabunny – I was not including the hardline wingnuts, just trying to point out that a normal way of life, as we know it, does not happen there.

Apparently not Footflaps. I’d have thought ground penetrating radar or really accurate seismology or listening gear could do it but it seems not.

Total nonsense, they could easily locate them, but that’s not the issue, they wanted a war to crush Hamas so they can nick their Gas.

I was not including the hardline wingnuts, just trying to point out that a normal way of life, as we know it, does not happen there.

Well all of that stuff about there not being villages and packing handguns to travel is nonsense in most of Israel.

footflaps – Member

Total nonsense, they could easily locate them

That’s what I’d have thought… But it’s widely reported otherwise, even from relatively unbiased outlets.

So apparently IDF forces withdrawing from gaza, 72 hour ceasefire agreed…

look…some dead Palestinian terrorists!!
at least they wont be firing rockets at Israel…hooray for Zionism(!)

you think Hamas want peace talks with a government that advocates this??
http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/concentrate-and-exterminate-israel-parliament-deputy-speakers-gaza-genocide-plan

who is the bigger terrorist?

Well all of that stuff about there not being villages and packing handguns to travel is nonsense in most of Israel.

The last figures I saw were 92% of jewish Israelis lived in towns or cities, with the majority of the rest living on collective farms. I’m happy to be proved wrong.

DP

But it’s widely reported otherwise, even from relatively unbiased outlets.

You mean journalists just repeat press releases given to them…

Even if ground penetrating radar didn’t work, you could just dog down 50m and find them. That would be cheaper than spending $100m in munitions, plus loss of life etc in a war for which Congress has just passed emergency extra funding for…..

Well at least the he world is safe from those dead Palestinian terrorist babies pictured above

Israel can be proud of another job well done

And our fine government who refuse to condemned the deaths or in fact stop selling weapons to israel

hay ninfan did you read your link re Kosovo “Statistically speaking, civilian casualties were lighter than any other conflict involving modern mass airpower.”
unlike Gaza no evidence of deliberately targeting civilians save for the Chinese embassy No evidence of snipers killing unarmed men . a longer proper war killing fewer civilians . Not only is your link more “whataboutary” it does not really do anything but emphasise how bad the IDF are.

footflaps – Member

Even if ground penetrating radar didn’t work, you could just dog down 50m and find them.

You know I don’t think it’s quite that simple, along a 31 mile border.

You know I don’t think it’s quite that simple, along a 31 mile border.

They survey for minerals / oil over much larger areas and much deeper…..

Yep but you’re not looking for an oilfield 3 feet wide.

Crankboy, i was just thinking the same thing. Can’t decide if it was worthy of point 6 of the ‘israeli public relations guide’ gonzy posted above, whether or not it was, the text of the article hardly supports the argument it was used to back up.

I sometimes wonder whether ninfan reads the links he posts, or if he does, perhaps he does not expect anyone else to. Also (and iirc one of his previous logins is on record on here saying so) he often takes the contrary position to any prevailing (and his view OTT) opinion just for his own amusement, not because it necessarily reflects what he really believes. Anyone remember Stephanie? 😆
Somewhere else on the internet, right now, ninfan is having just as much fun on an american forum using these very arguments to put the wind up blustering Hannity-types. 😀

Crankboy – at the time of writing it was, however if you sit down and look at the figures of targets hit versus civilian casualties, the Israelis are doing far better

Some interesting reading:

http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/4570/gaza-civilian-casualties

If you want to get geeky about it, theres a fairly extensive review of the effectiveness of the NATO bombing campaign here: http://csis.org/files/media/csis/pubs/kosovotactical%5B1%5D.pdf

Put differently, NATO flew 5,926 sorties to strike and restrike 102 target groups (the
U.S. says 200 targets), or 58 sorties per target group by Day 20. It flew 1,687 actual
bombing runs or 17 sorties per target group hit. If one only counts target groups with
severe damage or destroyed, this is 5,926 sorties for 44 targets

So 44 targets destroyed for 500ish civilian casualties

And of course the Serbians weren’t storing weapons in UN schools…

jambalaya – Member

Israel is not doing what *** it wants, it is making a very significant effort to minimise civilian casualties. It does not do so with total impunity or thought as to the consequences of it’s actions. However the threat to its security from Hamas is too great to ignore, hence we see the conflict we have today

I have not met you but would like to punch you in the nose for coming out with that utter crap.

Go onto instagram or google and type #gaza or gaza casualties and look at the children with heads and limbs blown off – it may change your mind.

NO? – Then look the ‘commercial’ news where they show biscuit factories, un schools, places of refuge and hospitals that have been hit DISPITE Israel being informed that they were there several times.

I know civilian casualties are going to happen, that’s the nature of the beast but so many are avoidable – as most of the world is saying now – war crimes have been committed – WAKE UP

No bloody wonder anti-Semitism is coming out and on the rise if your going to defend these actions just because your Jewish.

just because your JewishZionist.

fixed that for you…Judaism has very little to do with what is happening…Zionism has hijacked the religion and is now hiding behind it whilst implementing its racist, bigoted and greed filled authority on the Israeli people.
the Israeli/Jewish population has had 60+ years of being brainwashed by the Zionist ideology and can now see no wrong in what this movement is doing. they have been wrongfully indoctrinated a siege mentality that the whole world is out to get them, they are the victims, they are owed the holy land etc..

jambalaya – Member
@earnie – a note on international law. If your neighbour fires rockets at you and spends years digging tunnels 30m below the surface so it can attack you, you are perfectly entitled to respond. The tunnels show quite clearly what Hamas would do if the border crossings where open. Perhaps you have seen the videos of the Israeli’s pulling huge amounts of weapons and even motorcycles from the attack tunnels built into Israel. All materials to attack Israel’s. There where no sheep.

under international law a blockade is an act of war, and you also have a right to self defence under such circumstances..

seosamh77 – Member

jambalaya – Member
@earnie – a note on international law. If your neighbour fires rockets at you and spends years digging tunnels 30m below the surface so it can attack you, you are perfectly entitled to respond. The tunnels show quite clearly what Hamas would do if the border crossings where open. Perhaps you have seen the videos of the Israeli’s pulling huge amounts of weapons and even motorcycles from the attack tunnels built into Israel. All materials to attack Israel’s. There where no sheep.

under international law a blockade is an act of war, and you also have a right to self defence under such circumstances..

And when you don’t have an official ‘army’ to defend yourself and you do what you can with what you have you will be labelled as a ‘terrorist’ and treated as such.

@ernie – I owe you a responce to why anti-semitic, when you start classifying a whole country as racist or Zionist amongst other accusations in your post, that is worthy of the tag.

How dare he suggest such a thing? Oh…

In a recent study by Friedrich-Ebert-Stiftung, half of all Jewish Israeli high school students said Arab-Israelis should not receive the same set of rights as Jews. Of those that identified as religious, half said the now familiar slogan “Death to Arabs” was legitimate.

http://www.vice.com/en_uk/read/israeli-racism-gaza-kleinfeld-511

But it’s only half the young people not all of them eh?

Anyway – any nation state that is defined on religious grounds is by it’s very nature racist. How is this not racist?

The Law of Return grants all Jews the right to immigrate to Israel and almost automatic Israeli citizenship upon arrival in Israel. In the 1970s the Law of Return was expanded to grant the same rights to the spouse of a Jew, the children of a Jew and their spouses, and the grandchildren of a Jew and their spouses, provided that the Jew did not practice a religion other than Judaism willingly. In 1999, the Supreme Court of Israel ruled that Jews or the descendants of Jews that actively practice a religion other than Judaism are not entitled to immigrate to Israel as they would no longer be considered Jews under the Law of Return, irrespective of their status under halacha (Jewish religious law).

From the Israeli Nationality Law.

ninfan Richard kemp and the gatestone institute may well have a little bit of an obvious agenda the second link does not work.

So how many children is it ok to deliberately target in a school in order to take out a stored rocket that is not in the process of being deployed and were it to be deployed has so far had a 0% success rate?

How many other schools/children can you hit on the basis that other schools had the odd ineffective rocket in it.

IMHO

Israel will win this war, with there far better weapons, but the Muslims will win the battle
The next thing will be another twin towers event, to show the Americans and any one else that us there mates is that they are vunerable,

Send a tank in when you know they have only shit weapons, it’s bully boy tactics, I’m not for one side or the other but having been bullied at school, because I was only small I hated it, and I never forgot about it and the people that did it

Jews shoot Muslim kids because they are the next generation, they don’t care

mikyman jews are a race and religion . The people doing the killing of children and civilians are the IDF on the orders of the Israeli government they do it to collectively punish the Palestinian people because some Palestinians are in Hamas and some in other jihadist groups . It is wrong to make the same mistake as the IDF and lump all people of a race or religion together for condemnation.

It’s possibly the first time I’ve ever agreed with Boris Johnson:

“I cannot for the life of me see why this is a sensible strategy. It is not my function to arbitrate or adjudicate in this matter – I am a passionate supporter of Israel. I cannot for the life of me see the purpose of this. It is disproportionate, ugly and tragic and will not do Israel any good in the long run.”

I agree with you 100% I’m not saying one is right over the other, it’s just how I see things panning out, would you agree with that

The Jews will not be happy till the Muslims are in the sea and they can have the lot, ethnic cleansing on a grand scale, and no one does a thing, why is that, it’s a bloody disgrace

they are owed the holy land etc..

Just remind me. Who said it was theirs? Originally.

If the situation was reversed and the Palestinians were bombing the **** out of the Isreali’s do we think western leaders would be releasing sound bytes ‘condemning’ the atrocities, or would we be preparing a ground invasion and sending a vanguard class submarine to the area?

It’s a disgrace.