Thank you for bringing up the Gaza tunnels jambalaya, because it’s worth remembering what the people of Gaza have to do to get round the Israeli blockade of Gaza – illegal under international law.

The illegal blockade of Gaza ensures that Gaza remains the largest concentration camp in history and that Israel can apply the screws on the Gazans whenever they want to punish them.

The Israelis call the illegal blockade “putting the Palestinians on a diet”, those tunnels are Gaza’s lifeline and undermine Israel’s illegal blockade. That is why Israel is determined to destroy them.

I have no doubt that many have died building them.

Dispatches on the Israeli Lobby Group

jambalaya – Member

Given that Israel is by definition a religiously intolerant racist and bigoted state, that is a perfectly acceptable goal imo

@ernie you need to emphasise the IMO as its by your definition.

No it is not “my” definition.

Israel allows British Jews to live in Israel but not British Muslims, that is religious intolerance. BTW can you imagine the UK government allowing any EU national to live here except Jews ? What would you call that ?

Furthermore it’s clearly not just about religion as almost half of Israelis are secular Jews. So it’s also about race.

I repeat, Israel is by definition a religiously intolerant racist and bigoted state.

Erm, Surely the smuggling tunnels go towards Egypt?

Not much point int building a smuggling tunnel towards Israel, is there? And its these ones that are being destroyed by the IDF.

How is it that Fatah manage to survive perfectly well without firing rockets or sending suicide bombers any more? It seems strange that one small group of Palestinians supposedly have no other option but to shoot rockets at civilians when another, arguably much larger group of Palestinians, seem to be managing fine without doing it…

“We can forgive the Arabs for killing our children. We cannot forgive them for forcing us to kill their children. We will only have peace with the Arabs when they love their children more than they hate us.” ? Golda Meir

This is the most frightening thing I’ve read in a long time. Legitimising the killing of children by way of principle will be the eventual downfall of the Israeli state.

I’m beginning to suspect that the Israelis are actually just trying to kill everyone in Gaza. That’s the logical end point of what seems to pass for a policy.

The comparisons with apartheid South Africa are worth mentioning. Allocating ‘homelands’ to displaced peoples to all them to ‘self-govern’. Knowing full well that these are next to worthless scraps of land. In South Africa the idea was to use these ‘bantustans’ to serve as reservoirs of near slave labour, existing just above the bread line. In the case of Israel it is not really even that. The interaction between the enclaves and the main state are then entirely one-sided.

Now when it comes to the inevitable fight in Gaza, it is so one-sided as to be laughable. Hamas fires rockets (pea shooters in comparison – although still a very lethal weapon at the local level). They don’t have the US or British or whatever advanced weaponry. So Israel criticises them for being indiscriminate. Israel launches air strike or shells deliberately targeting hospitals and schools. Deliberately. Then they choose to say Hamas is using human shields.

The message is “stay as you are, stay subservient, stay oppressed, stay poor and hungry and we will leave you alone (to rot). Do anything to challenge this (we know you have no diplomatic or political clout to do anything about it, so it will inevitably be military) and we will respond x1000 and there will be none of you left”.

Hamas is a product of the circumstances. I wouldn’t like to meet any of them on a dark night, but if the original oppression and injustice did not exist I truly believe that the Palestinians would have no use for them. Post 9/11 has been an Israeli dream scenario. The ability to tie their aims in with the ‘global war on terror’ has been immensely valuable for them. I honestly don’t know how this will end, but I will wager that there will be a lot more Palestinians dead than Israelis and a lot more of them will be non-combatants.

I know better than to waste my time “discussing” anything with you Z-11, specially as the right-wing extremists which control Israel will have an obvious attraction to you, other than point out that the reason why support for Hamas has grown at the expense of Fatah is clear – Fatah has done sweet **** all and is now firmly in the pocket of the US.

jambalaya – Member
The simple fact is that Israel has the international support it has because that is the right thing to do.

It’s slipping:

The United States is appalled by today’s disgraceful shelling outside an UNRWA school in Rafah

Not very strong, but considering who it’s coming from I think it’s pretty significant. No doubt Bibi won’t be pleased.

Palestinian ambassador to UN also speaking sense:

The Palestinian ambassador to the U.N., said on NBC’s ‘Meet the Press’: “What we need now is to stop this fighting, to address the tragic humanitarian situation in the Gaza Strip.

He added putting the people of Gaza “in a continuous situation of confrontation and fighting” will only lead to more violence: “This is an excellent atmosphere for radicalism.”

“But if you give them (Palestinians) hope, you open the borders, you let them go to school, let them look for good jobs, let them look for moderation. And we will succeed in allowing all those who want to have peace…to have the upper hand.”

I often wonder what Israel thinks it’s producing every time they kill a mother, brother, sister, father… What does it think those left behind will do with their lives? Devote themselves to a peaceful solution? Israel is creating more “terrorists” (by its own and the likes of Zulu and jambalaya’s definition, not mine) than it will ever kill during this latest round of war crimes. It is creating new generations of people who will want nothing other than the destruction of it as a state. Anyone would think that having a group who will stab you with a needle that you can shoot with a gun for it suits them very well, as well as plenty of other people in on it.

It’s slipping:

The US will still resupply the Israeli military with ammunition, and continue to fund them at $8m a day, so empty words really.

Until AIPAC is not as disproportionally powerful in who gets to be in politics in the US, then I cannot see this changing.

The stone cold fact is the US could cut this off at the knees tomorrow if they withdrew funding, and along with the EU, imposed financial sanctions.

The US will still resupply the Israeli military with ammunition

It is quite astonishing that Israel, which has one of the largest military in the world and is the world’s 4th biggest arms exporter, has over a period of a month hammered a tiny slither of land 25 miles long and averaging 5 miles wide, with 1.8million essentially defenseless people, with so much firepower, that they are actually beginning to run out of ammunition.

And they have obviously still so many more Palestinians to kill.

there are always two sides in any dispute, and both seem pretty adept at playing the lobbying/media game

this is completely wrong. since 1939 at least, the one thing you can rely on is that the Palestinian political class will totally fail to properly articulate a clear and unitary message on behalf of the Palestinian people. they are completely inept at PR, lobbying and foreign relations – much to the satisfaction of their enemies, Israeli and Arab alike.

Palestinians are perfectly capable of articulating their cause in an effective manner. And Palestinians are traditionally renowned for being the best educated people in the Arab world – they have long attached great importance to the liberating properties of education.

Hanan Ashrawi is an excellent example of a highly educate Palestinian who has for decades articulated the Palestinian cause extremely well.

The problem stems not from lack of ability but from a lack of opportunities.

On a radio news bulletin I heard yesterday the main item was the shelling of a UN school which had been severely condemned by the UN, they gave an Israeli government spokesman the opportunity to make a long winded comment, no Palestinian was given the opportunity to comment, and not even someone from the UN, just someone from the Israeli government.

On a radio news bulletin I heard yesterday

BBC by any chance? I’ve watched/read their coverage in parallel with other outlets and what the beeb doesn’t report is shocking. Mass cancellation of TV licences is in order.

Jambalaya, those Arabs living in peace in Israel endure restrictions and treatment that makes me wonder why you would hold them up as an example of integration.But then you think Israel has the right to act in the way it is doing,so at least you are consistent.

I wonder why it is that we focus on Israel military efforts in Gaza. Surely for the sake of balance we should mention Iraq and Syria? I see no outcry and public demonstrations over the mass executions and butchery continuing in those countries. Are we judging Israel by different standards?

Yes we are- Iraq and Syria are chaotic states.

Israel has a fully functioning government in control of its actions and supported by other governments in the EU and US which is making a conscious decision to drop bombs designed to strip human bodies of flesh on defenceless children.

Sleep well.

I wonder why it is that we focus on Israel military efforts in Gaza.

Maybe it’s “antisemitism” ?

Surely for the sake of balance we should mention Iraq and Syria?

surely for the sake of balance we should mention the indiscriminate shelling of civilians by the Ukrainian state?

I wonder why it is that we focus on Israel military efforts in Gaza.

do you have a thesis as to the reason?

Probably because we are judging them by western standards. Everyone else third world standards? Also yes Ernie, you might be right there..

yes Ernie, you might be right there..

Ah yes, any criticism of Israel’s brutal and murderous behaviour towards innocent civilians must be “antisemitism”.

It’s the obvious explanation because no one really cares about Palestinian children being blown up into little pieces.

I like the idea of Israel, I like the Israelis I met when I spent a few weeks there 30 years ago, and I like almost every Jewish person I’ve ever met… But…

This is crazy isn’t it?
The Lobbying influence of Zionist bodies in the US is a matter of record, and that in the UK not a secret.
The bizarre significance of Israel to right wing US Christian nut jobs also an issue.
The comparison of Palestine with Egypt and Jordan is bizarre. Two organised countries who could be fought to peace, compare with fighting an idea, something diffuse and protean. Israel will not get rid of the Palestinian “problem” unless it uses either negotiation (South Africa, Northern Ireland) or imprisons them all in concentration camps. And they are not far off doing the latter.

The underlying problems here are that people in the US/Europe don’t seem to have much sympathy for brown people, and Israeli political rhetoric seems to be dependent of the “smash them with an Iron Fist” approach, with no real thought of the endgame.

All the pathetic attempts of posters to divert onto Syria and Iraq should be ignored. “Other people murder so my friend should be allowed to too” is a moronic argument.

I would be interested in how much it would take some of the apologists for Israel to say, ok, enough…

I’m beginning to suspect that the Israelis are actually just trying to kill everyone in Gaza. That’s the logical end point of what seems to pass for a policy.

I think they’d stop when they can enslave what’s left. They basically want their gas and land, and will stop at nothing to get it.

No apologies from me and I feel the current situation is dire and desperate.

I still do feel that it is hard to put yourself in the position of the Israelis.

Imagine if you can, living in a small country bordered by hostile states. Normal parts of everyday life include the constant fear of attack, bomb shelters are everywhere, as is serving in the armed forces and knowing people who have lost their lives during their conscription or reserve service. Uniformed teenage boys and girls sit in bars and cafes and on buses with their automatic weapons.

The concept of a village does not exist, small communities are built in defendable positions, are surrounded by fencing and there is a rota for guard duty. If travelling between towns you would take your hand gun without question.

With the legacy of the “final solution” still just within living memory, the Israelis chose to show no more weakness, to them this means replying to a pin prick with a punch in the face. The situations in the surrounding countries are relevant because they feel threatened, these actions are as much a message to those around them than to those who are being targeted.

Jewish Kindergartens and schools have often been targeted in the past and when, unfair, concessions were made on land this just furthered the desire to overthrow the state.

It’s hard to imagine how living like this may affect your judgement.

I wish there could be a peaceful solution to the situation, the only effective leverage would be to withdraw arms supplies and sales. As we know the US and UK governments both like the money too much and are not that adverse to collateral civilian damage either.

Well…. back to the OP….

Daves token Muslamic fig-leaf resigns

neilwheel – Member

…the Israelis chose to show no more weakness, to them this means replying to a pin prick with a punch in the face. rain of heavy weaponry upon an innocent population

is that what you meant?

small communities are built in defendable positions, are surrounded by fencing and there is a rota for guard duty.

I’m afraid thats the inevitable result of occupying somebody else’s land illegally, having booted them off it. If I came round this afternoon, booted you out of your house, then moved my family in, would you just shrug your shoulders, say ‘oh well’…. and potter off to a refugee camp down the road? Or would you maybe consider what actions may be necessary to get your house back?

As we know the US and UK governments both like the money too much and are not that adverse to collateral civilian damage either.

Other way around, the US spend billions each year paying for Israel’s armaments. Without US financial aid, Israel would be over run and wiped from the face of the planet…….

Thank you for bringing up the Gaza tunnels jambalaya, because it’s worth remembering what the people of Gaza have to do to get round the Israeli blockade of Gaza – illegal under international law.

There is absolutely nothing illegal about closing your border. The Egyptians closed their border with Gaza yeas ago as they where fed up with the smuggling to arms and drugs.

@duckman, you are correct it is tough living in an Arab village in Israel. As @neilwheel says you must put yourself in the shoes of the Israeli’s, they are indeed fed up with being attacked (450 rockets fired before July this year) and fed up with terrorists using tunnels to attack them in Israel.

Hamas uses it’s civilians as part of its strategy, it digs tunnels from their houses (and has spend years and approx $100m doing so) and from mosques and it tells its people to remain in their houses when they are aware they will be targets (eg when family members are Hamas members). Hamas stores weapons in UN buildings. More civilian deaths is to Hamas’s advantage in the media and propoganda war so it does nothing to mitigate them.

Hamas has brought much suffering to Gaza, life in Gaza was far better before they were elected in 2006 (I think that’s the right date), the Israel’s had left and the boarder was open. Hamas lost support of Syria when it sided with the fight against the government (and as I have posted many times far more Palestinians have been killed in that conflict) and the Egyptians cut ties as they don’t want to associate with a terrorist organisation.

@Stratosphere – there is a very clear end game from the Israeli’s perspective. Hamas should disarm and renounce violence. I am sure the Israeli’s would be happy to have Gaza policed by a substantial UN peacekeeping force. But it would need to be substantial in order to ensure the militant factions within Gaza could be kept under control.

The UN could, theoretically, vote to send in a material peacekeeping force. But they have no stomach for it, the cost and danger of the operation would be significant. They saw in Rawanda and Serbia how if you don’t send in material forces it will not work. Also those forces would most likely have to be dominated by US and EU forces and Hamas will never agree to that.

I repeatedly draw reference to other conflicts as it puts what is happening in Gaza, which is indeed terrible, into a some sort perspective. What has happened in Syria, and indeed is ongoing, is far worse in terms of the death of civilians and more significant globally. “Rebel” groups have tried to force a revolution against the government (and Hamas was one of those) and the conflict has lead to the emergence of ISIS and the capture of large parts of Iraq in a Sunni vs Shia inter Muslim sectarian war. This organisation is already a major threat to the West, to us. This threat is only going to grow. By supporting Hamas against the Israel’s people are empowering terrorist organisations on a much wider scale.

I am sure the Israeli’s would be happy to have Gaza policed by a substantial UN peacekeeping force.

Would this be the same UN that Israel regularly accuses of being as Anti-semetic?

You really are totally delusional, aren’t you? Or… more likely… your zionism has clouded your mind to whats staring you in the face. How on earth you lot fool yourself into believing that zionism isin any way acceptable, or palatable to anyone in its present form, constantly amazes me.

Israel won’t even accept the Americans curtailing its activities any more, never mind the UN, whose resolutions its ignored for decades. There is no way on earth that Israel will accept anything other than the continued brutality of the IDF as the de facto, and sole, authority in the area

@earnie – a note on international law. If your neighbour fires rockets at you and spends years digging tunnels 30m below the surface so it can attack you, you are perfectly entitled to respond. The tunnels show quite clearly what Hamas would do if the border crossings where open. Perhaps you have seen the videos of the Israeli’s pulling huge amounts of weapons and even motorcycles from the attack tunnels built into Israel. All materials to attack Israel’s. There where no sheep.

I’m sure you can see the context if you want to.

@earnie – a note on international law. If your neighbour fires rockets at you and spends years digging tunnels 30m below the surface so it can attack you, you are perfectly entitled to respond.

But if your neighbour occupies your land, then boots you off it, corals you into a tiny area, fences you in, cuts off your water supply, power, rations the food allowed in, then starts launching air strikes against you, apparently you’re not entitled to respond. You just have to accept it.

Great this zionism thing isn’t it? You could just sum it up by ‘we’re allowed to do exactly what the **** we like, with total impunity, but no-one else can use the same rationale to justify their own actions. The same rules don’t apply to anyone else

@binners we clearly don’t agree here. Israels point of view is the UN has something like 50 member states with Arabic or Muslim controlled governments and that those factions mean it has a bias.

Israel is not doing what *** it wants, it is making a very significant effort to minimise civilian casualties. It does not do so with total impunity or thought as to the consequences of it’s actions. However the threat to its security from Hamas is too great to ignore, hence we see the conflict we have today.

Both Egypt and Israel cut off the border. How many rockets does Hamas fire at Egypt ?

I see once again we have the name calling.

@ernie – I owe you a responce to why anti-semitic, when you start classifying a whole country as racist or Zionist amongst other accusations in your post, that is worthy of the tag. I don’t tag every Palestinian as a terrorist, just Hamas. The Palastinians could choose another way bt it will be very difficult as Hamas can and does terrorize it’s own population.

I see once again we have the name calling.

Can you point out to me where I’ve called you names? I’ve called you a zionist – which you clearly are. I haven’t called you an apologist for child murderers. which would still be a truism, rather than name calling. Is this you warming up for the somewhat inevitable ‘anti-semite’ accusation?

Israel is not doing what *** it wants, it is making a very significant effort to minimise civilian casualties.

minimising casualties by targeting schools and hospitals with air strikes and artillery bombardment? Its certainly a novel approach. How would you say its going? Just remind me what the death toll is again? 80% of whom are civilians, according to the UN.

Like I said… you zionists are all completely wilfully delusional.

jambalaya – Member

There is absolutely nothing illegal about closing your border. The Egyptians closed their border with Gaza yeas ago as they where fed up with the smuggling to arms and drugs.

And the sea blockade?

They could easily locate and close all the tunnels on their side of the border. It would be cheaper to just dig down and locate them than launch a full military assault…

Fair play to Baroness Warsi this morning, the tory facade is cracking hopefully.

Apparently not Footflaps. I’d have thought ground penetrating radar or really accurate seismology or listening gear could do it but it seems not. Having said that, if you don’t know where the tunnels are, how does your invasion destroy them?