I was wondering why our leaders weren’t making more noise about the Israeli Army killing children and found this article amongst others which explain how 80% of Conservative and probably a good number of the other MP’s are bank rolled by people lobbying for Israeli interests.

https://www.opendemocracy.net/ourkingdom/peter-oborne-james-jones/pro-israel-lobby-in-britain-full-text

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What article ?

Edit : You’ve now edited and provided a link, ta 🙂

Edit 2 : I’m not reading all that ! Is there a concise version ?

Lots of armamnets companies and building companies are making or going to make a lot of money when the problems there sort themselves out, then on to syria, afganistan and the next war zone.
and a lot of mps are directors or will be of these compnies come the next election if not now.

I was a bit unsure about my MP’s statement on Israel/Gaza (http://tomharris.org.uk/wordpress/2014/07/harris-calls-for-gaza-ceasefire/) and yeah it turns out he’s a member of “Labour Friends of Israel”

The Lib Dems like to play at being a ‘proper’ party so I think they’ve got one too.

Obviously, there are no groups in the UK promoting the Palestinian/Hamas cause?

I don’t agree with what Israel are doing, but there are always two sides in any dispute, and both seem pretty adept at playing the lobbying/media game, rather than the “how can we stop these two groups constantly attacking each other whether on a large or small scale” game.

There’s a lot of money to be made out of indiscriminately murdering children on an industrial scale.

Gaza is proving a great showcase for the American and British arms industries. If I were a tinpot dictator looking to kill loads and loads of people, I know where I’d be shopping for my toys

Why do people who would like to defend the indefensible, but know that they can’t, always come out with the “there are always two sides in any dispute” line ?

One side is slaughtering the other side, that’s all you need to know. As was the case in Auschwitz – no one says there are always two sides in any dispute when it comes to Auschwitz, or to what the Khmer Rouge did, or what happened in Bosnia, etc.

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both seem pretty adept at playing the lobbying/media game

Really ? You think that the Palestinians are “pretty adept at playing the lobbying/media game” ? What do you base that on ?

I see Israeli spokesmen on the telly who speak in perfect English, basically because they are either British or American with no Middle East roots, and I only occasionally see Palestinians being interviewed – they invariably speak in poor English on account of not being educated in Europe or North America, what with them being actually “Middle Eastern” and all.

Palestinians also appear to have extremely poor lobbying opportunities, compared to Israel’s excellent ones.

Do you know differently ?

It’s worth reading, even if you only skim.

The exec summary is they are the biggest most powerful lobby group in Western Europe and so big that no one dare challenge them.

but there are always two sides in any dispute

Not always.

the Israelis whinge like a redneck who’s been scratched by cat after poking it with a cattle prod for 20 years.

Read Brian Eno’s questioning and an American friend’s response.
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/brian-eno-on-the-israelgaza-crisis-how-can-you-justify-images-such-as-this-9643916.html

To be fair, most of the time there’s two sides.

It’s just that sometimes one of the sides is utterly indefensible.

Think of star wars

Jedis or Darth vader/emperor palpatine

Has that helped?

Yep there’s two tribes at war but one of them is slaughtering kids by the hundred and our government won’t critise them not because it’s not wrong but because their personally being given money by the killers.

Yes, one side is slaughtering the other. They started to do so because “the other” side has been launching random, indiscriminate attacks on what is – whether we like it or not – Israeli territory.

Every nation has a right to self defence enshrined in international law, but obviously, the Israeli response has gone massively beyond that, and constitutes war crimes.

As for the Palestinian ability to lobby, well no one is listening to whatever Israels version of events might have originally been, are they?

And Ernie, please don’t selectively quote people. I made it clear in my post that I did not agree with Israeli action. Please don’t make me out to be an apologist for Israel’s actions, because I am not.

*to be clear, my wife has relatives in Israel. If anyone wants to suggest I have a vested interest, feel free*

You just defended them again

They started to do so because “the other” side has been launching random, indiscriminate attacks on what is – whether we like it or not – Israeli territory.

Every nation has a right to self defence enshrined in international law

Russel Brnd [ who i tend to dislike]

If I’m beating up somebody with a variety of weaponry and they’re jabbing me with a pin … of course, it’s still out of order, the pin. It hurts and everything, but don’t remove all context except for the information that’s convenient to you.”

its considerably more complicated than you suggest

They started to do so because “the other” side has been launching random, indiscriminate attacks on what is – whether we like it or not – Israeli territory.

Attacks which are akin to…well, just read up on the Iron Dome.

Keep jabbing me with a pin, and I’ll do what I need to do to make sure you stop.

Like it or not, Hamas are committed to remove the state of Israel. Israel has a right – within the limits of international law – to stop that happening.

Israels massive over reaction is a war crime, and must stop immediately. I am quite clear on that. But criticising me for pointing out the underlying root cause of the current slaughter of innocent people avoids the fact that until someone finds a way to resolve that problem there will never be peace in that art of the world, which is what the ordinary Israeli and Palestinian people want.

Read it again
You are hitting them so they are jabbing you with a pin the pin is not the justification for your attack it is the response to your attack

I would be delighted for you to explain how the actions of Israel makes palestinians change their view of israel and brings about peace.
it does nothing but breed terrorism and then when they launch shit attacks this the justification for yet more war crime “defence”

Article is very misleading and borders on typically anti-semitic with its suggestion that Jews are bankrolling politicians and that is why governments support Israel. The UK has 200,00 Jews, Indoubt very much that total donations represent more than 1-2% of money given to all political parties. The simple fact is that Israel has the international support it has because that is the right thing to do. Hamas is a terrorist organisation, it’s supporters are Iran and North Korea. Egypt closed their borders when Hamas took over as they are a terrorist organisation. Jordon is against Hamas as is Syria whose army has killed more Palastinian civilians than has Israel’s.

Sadly civilians form the majority of casualties in modern day conflicts and when your opponent hides weapons in UN schools and builds attack tunnels under residential properties and mosques civilian casualties are going to be that much higher.

Oh here we go….

Everyone who dares to criticise Israel’s right to butcher kids on an industrial scale, with impunity, is anti-Semitic and probably thought hitler had the right idea 🙄

The point of this thread was not really about who started this particular chapter and I don’t think it was as clear cut as your suggesting.

It’s point is the influence of groups lobbying on behalf of Israeli interests being so powerful that governments (and most of the media) are unwilling to critise them.

With that kind of power your unlikely to ever get a balanced view of who’s started anything.

I would be delighted for you to explain how the actions of Israel makes palestinians change their view of israel and brings about peace.

Junkyard Egypt signed a lasting peace with Israel. It did so after invading Israel and then having been totally crushed militarily. Egypt is a country of 50 million vs Israel at 5m, Israel stood firm and the Egyptians realised conflict was pointless, so they signed a peace. Hamas has positioned itself to be against any peace unless it means the elimination of Israel, so there can be no negotiation. Israel is trying to make it clear that Hamas’s demands mean there can never be peace, Isreal has no choice but to defend itself most forcefully.

It’s point is the influence of groups lobbying on behalf of Israeli interests being so powerful that governments (and most of the media) are unwilling to critise them.

@wilburt and that premise is totally false. There are other much more powerful lobby groups in the UK than Isreali interests. Like I posted a couple of minutes ago the “undue influence via money” is bordering on classic anti-semitism.

The simple fact is that Israel has the international support it has because that is the right thing to do.

That’s such a pile of bollocks, I don’t even know where to start with it.

Egypt is a country of 50 million vs Israel at 5m,

And that’s meaningless.

Hamas are committed to remove the state of Israel.

Given that Israel is by definition a religiously intolerant racist and bigoted state, that is a perfectly acceptable goal imo. Anyone who believes in justice cannot possibly justify the right of foreigners from all over the world to come and live on land taken from the Palestinians.

The only durable solution requires Israel to be replaced by a secular democratic Palestine where Palestinians – Muslims, Jews, Christians, Atheists, are their own masters.

The ANC were committed to the destruction of the Apartheid state, and didn’t given the regime the right to slaughter black Africans.

Ever since it’s inception in 1948, Israel has been anti semitic.

@binner far more kids (Palestinian and otherwise) have been killed in Syria and Iraq, do we see much comment on that ? No. Those other conflicts don’t seem to generate the same amount of comment, I say it’s because they are harder to compartmentalise. In Gaza you have tunnels built under residential homes, under mosques and you have weapons stored in Uzn schools and you have a terrorist government encouraging citizens that the best defense against military is for them to stay in their homes when they know that they are likely targets as there are weapons hidden there or that family members are Hamas members.

I read an estimate of the number of children and young adult who’ve died building tunnels equals those killed in this conflict.

I read an estimate…

Is there a link for that?

fact is that Israel has the international support it has because that is the right thing to do

Its right to support people committing war crimes is it
OH and give Putin a shout as he is off the hook and they will stop all those pesky sanctions.

Isreal has no choice but to defend itself most forcefully.

Aye they have no choice but to bomb kids sheltering in UN safe havens – who could disagree with that?

your right I see that now Forgive my objections
KILL THEM ALL TO DEATH if not tomorrow Hamas might invade and wipeout israel
Good points well made 🙄

it is not defending itself from anything it is slaughtering people and it is not the right thing to do nor to defend

@binner far more kids (Palestinian and otherwise) have been killed in Syria and Iraq, do we see much comment on that ? No

Whar abbouterry and distraction

if it helps the dictator there and the ISlamists fighting there are shits…is the yardstick by which we measure democracies now
Well I am not as bad as Stalin so shh

“Keep jabbing me with a pin, and I’ll do what I need to do to make sure you stop.” Really ? Whatever you need ? Kill my son and my neighbours kids?

Even if Hama’s do hide rockets in schools that does not make a school full of children a legitimate target . Do Hama’s also hide rockets in un dr’s cars marked with un clearly visible . or up the guy with the green t shirts jumper .

The British army have a policy of courageous restraint which seems to serve them well the IDF appear to condone deliberately killing children walking away in terror who pose no threat.

Wahaaaaay – have we all got our whataboutery bingo cards at the ready everyone? Let’s talk about everything else apart from the butchers of Tel Aviv. Maybe then everyone might stop noticing that genocide thing they’ve got going on eh?

Depressing article in today’s observer about Libya. Apparently the militias there aren’t too nice either. Have a read. It ‘ll give you something else to bang on about, on threads about Israeli atrocities and was crimes!

Isreal has no choice but to defend itself most forcefully.

youre right jambalaya, the best defence for israel is to spend a month relentlessly pounding one of the most densely populated (13th) places on the planet with state of the art munitions

coz that way the relatives of the 2000 or so mostly? civilians killed so far including 300 children, absolutely, definitely wont be signing up right now to join hamas

(not to mention that the 7 years of economic and physical seige of Gaza by Israel has reduced the state to poverty and misery)

the best recruitment tool ever for the IRA was Bloody Sunday

Israel seem happy to ignore the lessons of history and keep on murdering civilians

Given that Israel is by definition a religiously intolerant racist and bigoted state, that is a perfectly acceptable goal imo

@ernie you need to emphasise the IMO as its by your definition. Israel has signed a peace with Egypt, it has good relations with Jordon. Now that Hezbollah isn’t running Lebanon things are relatively quiet. Even Syria accepts Isreal. It is the Palestinians who are the odd one out, it is they that are no trusted or supported by their Arab neighbours. There are Arab villages throughout Israel, they can live side by side but Hamas cannot and never will. A peace will come when Hamas is seen by Palestinians for the terrorists they are and are replaced by a more progressive leadership, one which actually cares whether its citizens live or die rather than using them as canon fodder in their quest for the unobtainable.

jambalaya – Member

The simple fact is that Israel has the international support it has because that is the right thing to do.

I take it you are yourself a young misguided Israeli.

Of course slaughtering thousands of innocent women and children will lead to Israel being safer. Good luck with that. You are sowing the wind.

It’s point is the influence of groups lobbying on behalf of Israeli interests being so powerful that governments (and most of the media) are unwilling to critise them.

@wilburt and that premise is totally false. There are other much more powerful lobby groups in the UK than Isreali interests. Like I posted a couple of minutes ago the “undue influence via money” is bordering on classic anti-semitism.

1. Which lobby groups have more influence?

2. I was blaming Israel for killing kids and paying governments to keep quiet, are you saying its Jewish people in general? .

@kimbers I think Israel would imagine the relatives of those killed where already Hamas supporters. Israel would say the last 10 years shave proven that Hamas is not interested in any solution other than the destruction of Israel.

As for Bloody Sunday I make the same comparison, minds where already made up. Plus if you throw petrol bombs at soldiers with guns really bad stuff may happen. Hamas is only interested in conflict and death.

Egypt are happy to watch hamas get butchered as they have a similar pogrom ongoing against their assossciates; the muslim brotherhood, who theyve just decided to execute a sizeable chunk of en masse, yup sounds like israel and the egyptian government are perfect bedfellows

What if one day any of those children chose to join Hamas?

I’m going to the bookies and placing a bet Mark Regev will come out with this within the next week.

Daresay the Highly trained IDF conscripts will find a dangerous TERRORIST football being played with on a beach and neutralize the imminent threat to their sovereignty…

On a more serious note, lets not forget:

a) The diminished water supply, both in Gaza and the West Bank

b) The blockade, which covers not only all terrestrial borders, but the sea and air: of course, I shouldn’t mention the Mavi Marmara, but given the levels of indiscriminate slaughter which have been orchestrated, perhaps that sleeping dog should be woken.

c) The Israeli tactic of calculating the calories necessary for the population of Gaza, then ensuring the bare minimum is allowed through the blockade, to keep the inhabitants on the teetering brink of malnutrition, with a similar scheme imposed on the Gazan economy.

Dammit, I meant to keep out of it all, but it’s bad juju on a grand scale.

wow jambalaya, nice bit of ignorance there regarding bloody sunday (not to mention seeming to say that all palestinians are hamas therfore its of to kill them all!), I think we can safely disregard most of what youre saying now about this as you really are out of your depth