Believe it or not, most teachers agree with you. It’s just idiotic education ministers who don’t get it.

I agree they do. It is ‘the system’ that fails and leads us this way.

I think maybe he means that the money parents spend on private education would be spent elsewhere in the economy. But that also doesn’t make sense because it’s still being spent and spent locally too – the teachers spend their wages locally, the building upkeep and so on is all local. But maybe he means something else.

Nothing to do with money, it would help provide more political impetus to improve the state system if privates were banned.

It is ‘the system’ that fails and leads us this way.

Well you have to be careful talking about ‘the system’ because some people might take that to mean the whole of institutional education. Whereas it’s really meddling politicians’ fault that we are overwhelmed with metrics; most teachers teachers are doing everything they can to push back.

This article, and other stuff I have read, seems to imply that trying to give your own child every advantage you can afford is morally wrong, or even scandalous

If thats what you think the article says then I hope your kids are at a better school than the one you wentvto

Well AA you will have to join the queue for my affections you little charmer. I felt your handbag brush my cheek and I am somewhat Sewell-ised.

I read this bit

If policy makers are determined to increase social mobility in a climate where ‘room at the top’ is not expanding then the factors that limit downward mobility will need to be addressed

as a threat to my efforts to prevent my children from mobilising downward. IS there another meaning to that sentence that you could help me with in a constructive fashion?

PS you and the other haters need to coordinate your efforts, some seem to think that it is good that I feel uncomfortable, you are saying that I have misread the article. Can you clarify, does this mean you think I need not feel uncomfortable?
PPS Either way I don’t feel uncomfortable, I pay a shit load of tax which I hope the govt puts to good use to help everyone, I’m extremely happy about that, I feel privileged to have been born in a country like this. What is left is mine to do what I legally want with.

And this bit

The fact that middle class families are successful in hoarding the best opportunities in the education system and in the labour market is a real barrier to the upward social mobility of less advantaged children.

I’m not hoarding anything. I don’t even get what this statement really means. So perhaps your amazing pedagogue status can help me out, cos I’m a bit thick and my school let me down.

Still dont think it says what you are trying to get outraged about.

No worries, perhaps we can discuss this? What I love about your advances are the way when you think that someone gets it wrong, you help them to ease their way into the right way of thinking. I’m sure this is reflected in the way you behave in the classroom/rugby field with your charges. How lucky they must feel.

I was right about the persecution complex then.

Try to keep your toys in the pram.

Worth a read before paying for your child’s private education http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/society/middle-class-advantages-outweighed-by-having-to-live-among-middle-class-people-20150727100503

Well I suppose that qualification rules out the two obvious alternatives to educating your children 😉

Insulate, Sherman. Insulate!

Well I suppose that qualification rules out the two obvious alternatives to educating your children

I’m no lord.

The world is round…

No, it’s not…

It’s an oblate spheroid 😉

Anyway, if anyone wants to unpack this, then “Inequality and the 1%” by Danny Dorling has a chapter on education – including the adverse impact private education has on state education and the opportunities of those educated in the state sector…

inequality and the 1%

Whereas it’s really meddling politicians’ fault that we are overwhelmed with metrics; most teachers teachers are doing everything they can to push back.

No, the system is also the ‘customers’ (parents) and the fear of getting it wrong, not just politicians. Up here we are one step removed from such meddling…

Check out some thinking on the rise of snow plough parenting – success at any cost, and never the wonderful learning experience that is failure or boredom…

I believe that if you have the funds or means to provide for your kids futures WITHOUT damaging your own then fair enough. Otherwise you do what you can for them whilst still leaving yourself a life and let them find their way.

I take it you’ve either not children, or are just an 80’s child who is only interested in ME.

I was brought up an old-fashioned way, one where you still put yourself out for your children – as my parents (and grandparents) did for me. And also one where I now put myself out for my parents too.

I don’t really get why toys19 is getting so much grief for wanting the best for his children.

No matter what you do, it is not going to be perfect because too many factors are way beyond your control.

You can put your kid into the perfect school, and then along comes one wrong teacher, or a bullying pupil, and it becomes a toxic environment.

About the only thing you can be sure of doing right is putting your personal time rather than money into your child’s development. Teach them how to handle unfairness, adversity, violence and to expect problems. Best of all is if you can make them aware of their own decision making processes.

And if they don’t appreciate what you do for them, you’ve probably done it right.

They’ll only realise that when they have their own kids – but they’ll probably only remember the bits where you were tough on them. 🙂

I take it you’ve either not children, or are just an 80’s child who is only interested in ME.

I was brought up an old-fashioned way, one where you still put yourself out for your children – as my parents (and grandparents) did for me. And also one where I now put myself out for my parents too.

It’s a very boomer attitude to take I think – not even 80s – seeing how Asian families operate was an eye opener. Wifes parents are wealthy but only in the sense of the property that they own, they basically used up all their capital and destroyed their cash flow to send her to university in the uk.

I don’t think society gives younger people enough credit either, she’s seen how hard it was for her parents to send her here – consequently she achieved a 78 percent average at university…winning two prizes and coming top of her class. Youngsters do appreciate effort, they take things for granted when they see things have been easy for their parents or for whatever reasons do not respect them.

I agree with epicyclo for a change 🙂

I think toys19 is being paranoid, I don’t read that article as being particularly anti parents helping their kids, but more shameful that we have a society where getting a leg up has such a big affect and disadvantages poorer kids.

Having said that we have three interns here next week (sons of the MD of one of our Middle Eastern customers), so will be helping them get a leg up for the next 2-3 months…..

don’t really get why toys19 is getting so much grief for wanting the best for his children.

He’s not is he. I thought he was getting grief for thinking the article he posted suggested he should nottry to do the best for his kids. He seems to be confusing what some people think we as a society should strive for with individuals trying the best for their kids.

Given the thread is about parental RESPONSIBILITY it is telling that there is so much resistance to responsibility to make the best possible investment in life – the education of your children.

It’s a mixed up oblate spheroid that we inhabit!!!

it is telling that there is so much resistance to responsibility to make the best possible investment in life – the education of your children.

Depends what you think that investment should be. Do you think it should be a financial investment in spending a lot of money to send them to private school? Do you think it should be a time investment in being at home with them as much as possible, not working long hours away from home to get more money? Do you think it should be a social investment by letting them go to a local school with all their friends and children from all backgrounds so they get a more balanced view of society?

waaaaaah…. nail on head Ben..

I’ve met some serious losers with fantastic educations and some amazing people that never even saw the inside of a school

It’s very simple Ben, it should be the one that best suits your children – there is no one best answer. But it is not for others to tell you what to do or to use simple anecdote to suggest what is best. Horses for courses. But, and this is the other simple bit, it Is the most important investment you can make, be it time, money or whatever.

I do smile at the assumptions about “balanced” though – it’s a bit like the “real people” argument. Flawed from the outset…

If the responsibility is to chose whats best for your kids who do you consider has not done that THM?

it should be the one that best suits your children

What does that mean, though? Should I have put my daughter through a series of tests when she was a baby to determine whether she should go to private school or not? Sure, there are some kids with special need where it’s obvious that they’ll need a certain educational path, but for most kids it’s down to the parents’ beliefs about what’s best for their child.

Reading a completely different article, but this was relevant:

What he seemed to miss was that it might be attributable to this mum and dad that they made him one of the four per cent who attend fee-paying schools. Making an educational choice is one thing but knowingly setting your child apart and telling them they are superior with a higher expectation of entitlement is a social division which not everybody copes with.

http://derekbateman.co.uk/2015/07/29/making-the-weather/

When I hear about kids being hothoused by pushy parents, given tutors and extra lessons and lined up for private school and Oxbridge, I feel sorry for them. They’re not being allowed to be children, the poor things.

It’s very simple Ben, it should be the one that best suits your children – there is no one best answer. But it is not for others to tell you what to do or to use simple anecdote to suggest what is best. Horses for courses. But, and this is the other simple bit, it Is the most important investment you can make, be it time, money or whatever.

I agree that there is no single answer – kind of obvious. It’s the it’s not for others to tell you bit that bothers me. Parents are by definition amateurs. Child 1 is a voyage into the complete unknown; child 2,3 and so on are barely any better especially if they have differed traits to the first. Whilst each child is different and parents like to cling on to the fact that little Jonny is unique and special in every way, there are experts out there with experience of hundreds of remarkably similar kids to draw on. Only the most arrogant parents march on with a ‘I know what’s best for my child’ attitude ignoring all advise, and it usually ends poorly.

Private education means more pay:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-33775082

The report – Private pay progression – says half of this difference can be explained by factors such as prior academic attainment and the type of university an individual attended.
businesswoman
Graduates without a private schooling were marginally more likely to stay in top jobs
But it says the remaining half cannot be explained by these factors and is likely to be down to non-academic factors such as articulacy, assertiveness and other important soft skills.

Thought this worth a look. Seems to be a big elephant in the room not mentioned in that list of factors affecting the pay diffetential.

anagallis_arvensis – Member
Private education means more pay:
“…But it says the remaining half cannot be explained by these factors and is likely to be down to non-academic factors such as articulacy, assertiveness and other important soft skills.”….

[/quote]

Soft skills such as nepotism and cronyism? 🙂

Or parental support/influence/interference (you chose)

Wow that report really has tight conclusions there, even the headline writers must have struggled with that one.

It would be interesting to see if the privately educated kids go into similar careers as parents. Although I suppose high earning parents are more likely to have kids who go private so it might be tough to do.

Private school teachers don’t get more pay though.
I taught in the state sector from 1996-2005 and private until 2010. Took a pay cut, was denied part time hrs when I wanted to return from maternity, and worked more hours (yes more days per year) than when I worked in state schools.
But in general it was a much easier job. You don’t have to be a good teacher to get good results in a private school, the students want to learn and encourage each other. I have lost my classroom edge now and do not think I could ever work in the state sector again. Mr (I assume) Arvensis, you work in Private don’t you? Did you ever work in the state sector, I would be interested in your comments on the differences?

Note -The best teaching I have ever seen was in the worst school I ever worked in, one of the worst schools in the UK for class size, poverty, and level of intake. The schools value added was amazing.

I am sure there is nepotism and cronyism, but there is something else that comes with a private education – very high peer and parental expectation, not just academic but social and career wise. This leads to 6th formers leaving school with a huge amount of confidence and self expectation. Exactly what Ben Cooper derides, but it seems valuable and positive to me, based on the kids I have met both during and after my private school teaching career.
I now deal with Uni students and those from private backgrounds exude soft skills, diplomatic in their approach to problems, confident in their abilities, often charming with excellent manners, and generally well informed. They also listen well. My treatment of them is equal to those from the state sector, I don’t know their parents and have nothing to gain from their reaction to my services.

It is easy to assume that nepotism and cronyism are responsible for their successes, but I feel that the parental and peer expectation creates and environment for success.

The findings come after accountancy firm Ernst and Young (EY) announced it is removing all academic and education details from its trainee application process.

I would be willing to bet that private educated kids still do better even after this.

leaving school with a huge amount of confidence and self expectation.

Fine line between this and arrogance and self entitlement

Its not hard to see what sector some posters went to when you use this filter.

Mr (I assume) Arvensis, you work in Private don’t you? Did you ever work in the state sector, I would be interested in your comments on the differences?

Dr actually 😉
I work in the state sector, have never set foot in a private school ( apart from our schools annual massive loss to the local private school at rugby). I have worked at a uni and can confirm what you say about confidence etc from private school kids. In many they were utterly confident they were right even when they had no clue what they were on about. I have no idea if this is a parental effect or due to school.
As for pay, I’m not so sure anecdotally all the people I know who have left state for private say they get paid moreaybe they just say this.

Fine line between this and arrogance and self entitlement

That is true, but it is also in the eye of the beholder is it not?
I went to a 1980’s comprehensive FYI.

Dr actually

My apologies, I was alluding to your gender.
My anecdote, does only apply to my experience, but all my colleagues and other friends who work in Private are paid less then State. Friend at Sherborne who is battling at the moment to get a pay rise commensurate with state sector.

Private school teachers don’t get more pay though.

This one does if measured by annual salary-significantly so. It is one of the most expensive schools in the country though. But my effective hourly rate has dropped markedly since going to the dark side.

Do you work sat mornings, two weeks extra in the summer hols on activites week. Contracted to come in a week before school starts after the summer.
After school clubs/activities every night that you have to run?
Lunch time clubs?