My Commuter bike is an old singlespeed frame with rigid forks, semi-slick tyres and flat bars. It works great, fine for weaving through traffic etc but it doesn’t give me confidence going round flat greasy corners of which I have a couple to negotiate. Is there any way to improve it’s cornering ability? I’m not going to swap the frame, but everythign else I’ll consider, got loads of spare parts I could switch around if I thought it would improve it.
Current setup is –
70 degree head angle, 74 degree seat angle, 12.25″ BB height
1.8″ charge splashback tyres on 26″ wheels
25″ wide flat bars
75mm zero degree rise stem

Caveats –
I was wondering about lowering the BB height by swapping to slicks, but I like my semi-slicks as there are a few muddy leafy paths that I use to avoid busy road stretches.

I don’t want a shorter fork as it would steepen the seat angle and I don’t like it any steeper than it is now.

It can’t just be BB height that makes it feel sketchy though as my proper hardtail MTB feels much more confident with a higher BB but much slacker front end (66 degree). So maybe it’s a combination of BB height and head angle?

It’s the tyres.

I’d be wary of them on a wet road too – the actual surface area in contact with a hard surface is pretty small and looks like it’ll reduce when you cant them over.

Well I was going to say swap the semi slicks.

I guess you could look out some semi slicks with grippier edge knobs.

Run lower pressures.

Geometry isn’t going to give you more grip, and you don’t need extra stability unless it’s rough going.

edit – Oh yeah and of course nothing’s going to give huge levels of grip on really greasy roads, but those tyres won’t be helping.

tyres – youneed something with sticky rubber

I’ve always thought the Conti Town & Country tyres look good, the reversed tread should be better on the road then side knobs, depends what the grip is like off road, but at least it should be softer when you crash 😆

it doesn’t give me confidence going round flat greasy corners of which I have a couple to negotiate

You don’t say why it doesn’t give you confidence. Have you had a spill? How did it happen? Are you ok on that bike and those corners in dry/summer conditions?

TBH it’s no bad thing to be taking it easy round greasy corners this time of year. I back off a lot having gone down a few times in the past. No lack of confidence, just common sense and riding according to conditions and available grip (and fwiw I run soft road race rubber all year round.) If I ride in winter the way I do in the summer then I am going to fall off!

Edit… re-reading your post it does sound like it’s geometry and probably the way it turns in. Whenever I get back on my CX bike after a some time off it, it takes me a while to get use to the way it falls into corners as it’s fairly steep with high BB. A good thing for tight twisty stuff but feels odd initially on bigger faster bends until I’ve readjusted.

I used to have a similar set-up and had a couple of similar sounding corners in the off-road part of my commute. I think you’ve got to accept you’re just taking those corners steady rather than flying round them, if you go to stickier/knobblier rubber it’ll only negatively affect the straight, smooth, non-greasy parts of the commute, of which there is presumably a higher proportion.

You don’t say why it doesn’t give you confidence. Have you had a spill? How did it happen? Are you ok on that bike and those corners in dry/summer conditions?

I don’t feel like I can carve the corners like I can on my MTB, and like I presume you can on a road bike? It just wants to go straight. Feels like my weight is too high up to weight the front end. Maybe I’m just to used to 2.4″ sticky rubber and slack head angles but I can’t help but think road bikes must manage it.
I haven’t had a spill, had a couple of slips that I’ve caught mainly because I’m watching for them.

think you’ve got to accept you’re just taking those corners steady rather than flying round them

Possibly yes, and if that’s the answer then fine, just exploring whether any can be done to improve it a bit.

tyres – youneed something with sticky rubber

Suggestions?

I don’t feel like I can carve the corners like I can on my MTB, and like I presume you can on a road bike? It just wants to go straight. Feels like my weight is too high up to weight the front end. Maybe I’m just to used to 2.4″ sticky rubber and slack head angles but I can’t help but think road bikes must manage it.

On road bike at speed you need to give it a fair bit of encouragement to take fast corners properly by actively counter steering and getting the bike leant over on its side. Are you doing this?

Edit… may not be the best idea to practice this aggressively on slimy autumnal roads 😉

Double edit… on a road bike it’s all easier to do from the drops. Though I guess with flat bars you might have a bit more leverage.

Nine posts and no mentions of a skills course?

This place is slipping. maybe it needs a skills course.

Skills day

Edit: mere seconds dammit!

On road bike at speed you need to give it a fair bit of encouragement to take fast corners properly by actively counter steering and getting the bike leant over on its side. Are you doing this?

Yep I’ve been making an effort to exaggerate cornering technique in order to test it’s cornering abilities.

Edit… may not be the best idea to practice this aggressively on slimy autumnal roads

Don’t mind the leaves – at least it makes it a bit more interesting!

Nine posts and no mentions of a skills course?

No suggestion of new bike either. Though obviously the answer is still to throw some cash at wiggle 😉

Tyres is my immediate thought too, some sticky road based rubber would almost certainly help. Conti 4 Seasons get a lot of positive comments for winter commuting, I’m a big fan of Vredestein Senso Xtreme too. They won’t be too good off road though, it’s a compromise you’ll have to make I guess.

As an aside I’m on a borrowed hybrid this week and it feels very wooly in the turns. BB is high, so probably that that makes it feel less planted than a standard roadie or an MTB.

I could only tell for sure when I went to put a foot down and the ground was further away than I was expecting.

Edit… re-reading your post it does sound like it’s geometry and probably the way it turns in. Whenever I get back on my CX bike after a some time off it, it takes me a while to get use to the way it falls into corners as it’s fairly steep with high BB. A good thing for tight twisty stuff but feels odd initially on bigger faster bends until I’ve readjusted.

Missed this. How do you re-adjust? Just having to put more effort in to lean it in etc?

Consensus seems to be try some new tyres so maybe I will give some
proper slicks a go.

. Conti 4 Seasons get a lot of positive comments for winter commuting, I’m a big fan of Vredestein Senso Xtreme too.

Look good but I’m on 26″ MTB wheels and these don’t seem to be available in that size.

Missed this. How do you re-adjust? Just having to put more effort in to lean it in etc?

Hmm I’m not entirely sure 🙂 I’m not that conscious of the process, just adjust to the different feel. Probably a little less firm with the initial push of the bars as the CX bike turns quickly. Which isn’t a surprise really with road bike designed for speed and stability and CX bikes designed for tight twisty courses (with higher BB and steeper head angle than my road bikes.)

If you feel you’ve got less weight over the front than you’d like, longer stem or lower bars (including drops).

If you’re riding on greasy roads, it will feel dodgy unless you go very slow, and if you pitch into a corner too fast it’s a lot harder to do anything about it on tarmac than on an MTB on loose surfaces!

Think carefully about your line, too. If you play games with that you can conserve a lot of momentum (although you do sometimes need to think about how you avoid a car potentially trying to squeeze past then brake in front of you going into corners, too).

Is it one end of the bike that is “failing” in these corners?

If it’s the front, try fitting a wider tyre and/or reducing the pressure. Bend your elbows to put more weight over it in the corners

If it’s the rear, reducing the pressure might be worth a shot. If traction is an issue off-road, try something with more aggressive tread on the outer edges.

Total weight of me, kit and Wazoo is ~92Kg. With a 35mm stem, I’d hazard a guess that the front wheel weight bearing load is ~35% tops.
On 700x38mm Marathon Cross, I run ~55/75PSI.
On 29×2.35″ G-One Speeds, I run ~30/45PSI.

For mostly on the road, but often a small ~0.2 mile stretch of what is is now muddy off-road on the way home from work.

If you’re riding on greasy roads, it will feel dodgy unless you go very slow, and if you pitch into a corner too fast it’s a lot harder to do anything about it on tarmac than on an MTB on loose surfaces!

Think carefully about your line, too.

^^Yup,read the road and adjust your angles* to suit conditions.

*My winter commuting angles(of lean)may vary

Just put some slicks on if your route is primarily tarmac. You will get much better performance on the road and lose minimal off road. Presuming that your off road section are basic stuff like old railway lines easy tracks etc different if it is shredding the gnar

Longer stem and slide the saddle forward would be my first thing to try, but it could be multiple things.

Just put some slicks on if your route is primarily tarmac. You will get much better performance on the road and lose minimal off road. Presuming that your off road section are basic stuff like old railway lines easy tracks etc

I’d agree, I’ve ridden many many leafy corners and I’ve ridden in snow with slicks – it’s quite doable within limits. You just have to look ahead and ride appropriately.

Depending what everyone means by “slicks”, the issue with slicks is that when they lose lateral grip they just go. The rear is generally catchable if you’re awake, but if the front slides out you’re going down. Something with a rounded profile but a little tread, like a file-tread, may give less overall grip but will break away more gradually on most surfaces.

Something with a rounded profile but a little tread, like a file-tread, may give less overall grip but will break away more gradually on most surfaces.

Got a tyre in mind? I’m thinking of trying –
– New tyres
– longer stem (got an 80mm one I can put on)
– possibly even trying a 1 degree works headset on it to see if a slacker head angle does help.

possibly even trying a 1 degree works headset on it to see if a slacker head angle does help.

no. you need better weight distribution and more weight over the front/lower centre of gravity.
road and mtb are very different in their cornering techniques. think motocross and moto-gp
tyres that have a grippy compound and a supple carcass to deform will give you more grip, obviously there is a trade-off between longevity and puncture protection.

siping is just there for marketing and to appease the weak minded and do nothing for grip in the wet. if you actually get down and look at tarmac it’s incredibly rough and bumpy, you couldn’t aquaplane a cycle tyre if you tried.
being nervous and sitting bolt upright isn’t going to help, drop an elbow and shoulder and trust the front. 🙂

siping is just there for marketing and to appease the weak minded and do nothing for grip in the wet. if you actually get down and look at tarmac it’s incredibly rough and bumpy, you couldn’t aquaplane a cycle tyre if you tried.
being nervous and sitting bolt upright isn’t going to help, drop an elbow and shoulder and trust the front.

I agree re. aquaplaning, but it can help (a bit) in the snow and on any sort of mud/leaf litter etc. – anything on a wet road will pretty much let go all at once though, but it could be a patch of leaves or mud that makes you bin it.

longer stem (got an 80mm one I can put on)

Not sure 5mm will make much difference 😉 and if it has any rise it’ll make even less.

possibly even trying a 1 degree works headset on it to see if a slacker head angle does help

As above, I’d be inclined to go the other way with it. If you slacken the head angle it means you’ve got less weight on the front, which means it’s got less grip. It’s basically undoing what you’re trying to do with the stem.

you couldn’t aquaplane a cycle tyre if you tried

Yeah, but this is about cornering confidence, which is a different thing.

Black Chili. Black Chili GP’s around Sheffield shocked me. I was not expecting so much grip and such rolling speed. They coped with leafy muddy gritty stoney paths and greasy roads far better than you might give such a treadless tyre credit for. Ice was basically the only surface to defeat them. My experience of ‘knobbly’ 700’s in the same environment was that they had far less grip in almost all conditions although if you were to take them into the hills or a CX field I dare say they’d excel.

MrSmith – Member

possibly even trying a 1 degree works headset on it to see if a slacker head angle does help.

no. you need better weight distribution and more weight over the front/lower centre of gravity.
road and mtb are very different in their cornering techniques.
Fair enough, I’ll shelve that idea for now…

Bez – Member

longer stem (got an 80mm one I can put on)

Not sure 5mm will make much difference and if it has any rise it’ll make even less. Yeah I thought I had a 70mm stem on now but it’s 75mm like you say. I’ll try a 90mm one I’ve got. Any longer and I may as well throw the towel in and buy a road bike… 😀
I’ll try taking some spacers out as well, got a few I can play with.

Re tyres –
https://www.tredz.co.uk/.Continental-Grand-Prix-Black-Chili-Tyre_60584.htm?sku=175457&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=google_shopping&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI2PT57JLO1wIVS5PtCh0iYQx_EAQYAyABEgLHDvD_BwE#

Any good ?

OP- accept that you’re a MTB’er at heart and build a new bike with 27.5/29+ tyres (2.8″ and above) and call that your ‘road’ bike. If you feel you will do lots of road miles, by all means go for one of the less aggressive knobbly tread patterns.

Who says you have to conform.

N.B this is probably stupid advice- follow at own peril etc. I’ll let you know how my build goes tho!

You could swap the tyres out for some Schwable Table tops that would work on and off road.

I would look to wider bars and shorter stem combo

760mm bars 60mm stem.

do you try to corner it like a mtb ? I can rail my road bike on 25mm tyres by pushing down on the bars and dropping the outside crank.

Who says you have to conform.

No-one, least of all me, just trying to get a bike that feels ‘almost right’ to feel bob on.

You could swap the tyres out for some Schwable Table tops that would work on and off road.

Yeah possibly, I run tabletops on my DJ / BMX track bike where they’re great. Not convinced they have a good compound or tread for cornering on wet roads though.

do you try to corner it like a mtb ?

Yep, because it is an MTB, only on the road.
I once did this to it, but I couldn’t look myself in the eye for a week.
Commuter bike with drops
Anyhow, I swapped 10mm of spacers to above the stem this morning before my ride in. Fast cornering seems improved, can get my weight down lower over the front end and lean it over better. But – slow speed handling feels worse, and especially stood up trying to manoeuvre through traffic. Also sprinting off the line is worse, can’t pull up as hard on the bars. Will try a longer stem tomorrow at the original height (after compensating for the longer length) to see if it gives me the cornering gains without the slow speed / pulling up issues.