“I’m obviously out of touch, but 27k doesn’t sound too bad…”

Particularly when you factor in the annual leave and the value of the employer’s pension contribution, which as a defined benefit scheme is around 30% of salary.

This is one of the biggest challenges in any conversations about wages – despite the fact the public sector had few redundancies and even fewer wage cuts over the last 5 years, on average still earn more, retire earlier, get more paid time off, take more time off sick and get pension contributions about 6 x more than the average in the private sector, many people still feel “hard up” – and I kind of understand that against years of minimal wage rises but am also mindful of whether it would have been better to cut wages 10-15% across the board (as was the case in Ireland) and then use higher pay rises over the years that followed.

Perhaps it’s time to level the playing field, end the defined benefit / final salary schemes in the public sector, pay staff more and then let them choose how much to put into their pensions?

Anyway, we didn’t need to talk as you put it, it was just pointing out that a 40% atrittion rate for a carrer wasn’t especialy high. Other careers have plenty of people start then decide a few years down the line it’s not for them and go and do something else.

So apart from some numbers you made up you have no proof? Hell I’m convinced.

Just wait until I establish the People’s Democratic Republic of Wessex.

You can be the minister for education (Its an honorary post of course, as all the money will go on teachers).

If I can still be a teacher too its a deal

Perhaps it’s time to level the playing field, end the defined benefit / final salary schemes in the public sector, pay staff more and then let them choose how much to put into their pensions?

yeah lets make everyones pension shit, sounds like a great plan.

This is one of the biggest challenges in any conversations about wages – despite the fact the public sector had few redundancies and even fewer wage cuts over the last 5 years, on average still earn more, retire earlier, get more paid time off, take more time off sick and get pension contributions about 6 x more than the average in the private sector

my Mrs works part time in a private school, you know what, she’s unqualified, has no responsibility and gets paid more than me pro rata. The real kicker is that she gets THE SAME PENSION. So if you want to compare public sector teachers to private feel free

She may but most people in the Private sector don’t get anything like the pension you do in the public. Even the crappier public sector pensions are better than most private. I think a lot of people don’t get that when you look at your employment, it is the total package you need to look at, not your monthly take home figure.

As a_a says above it’s not the pay that makes a job suck in most cases, it’s the people and conditions around you.

She may but most people in the Private sector don’t get anything like the pension you do in the public. Even the crappier public sector pensions are better than most private. I think a lot of people don’t get that when you look at your employment, it is the total package you need to look at, not your monthly take home figure.

Thats true but if you want to make comparisons it needs to be like for like. Apples and pears will always be different.

So apart from some numbers you made up you have no proof? Hell I’m convinced.

Not made up, just anecdotal based on the people I know. The only bias would be that I’m a horrible person to work with so they all left to avoid me 🙂

Made up? As opposed to this accurate and well referenced work of scientific literature………

anagallis_arvensis – Member
40% of teachers leave the profession in 5 years, or something like that

despite the fact the public sector had few redundancies and even fewer wage cuts over the last 5 years, on average still earn more, retire earlier, get more paid time off, take more time off sick and get pension contributions about 6 x more than the average in the private sector,.

This is one of the biggest challenges in any conversations about wages.

Despite the fact that the “public sector” is the fastest shrinking employer in the country, that wages have been falling since 2008, that public sector staff jobs pay less than the equivalent private sector jobs, that public sector staff will be retiring at 67 like everyone else, tha public sector staff take the same annual leave and have less time off sick you still get people making huge generalisation and assuming its still 1973.

Pension doesn’t pay your mortgage and day to day bills.

Younger people being paid £27k don’t really have much choice if they want a better standard of life. So it leaves the older long termers who have too much vested / life situation isn’t so wage dependent or managers who are on liveable wages

Actually when you look at the uplift in salary you can get moving to private sector, often the pension is comparative (a smaller % of a bigger number = roughly the same)

I would rather be paid market rates and have the money now to do with it what I want rather than at 67 (or 70 or 75 by the time I get there).

I don’t trust the government one bit, I have another 30 years to work, how many more times will they adjust the pension arrangements in that time?

Apples and pears will always be different.

But they aren’t different, you can work out the costs. It’s something people should look at when they move company, as private sector companies can have wildly different pension schemes and other perks.

Pension doesn’t pay your mortgage and day to day bills.

Depends what stage of your life your at.

anagallis_arvensis – Member
40% of teachers leave the profession in 5 years, or something like that

Yeah but thats true, I didnt make it up. http://www.theguardian.com/education/2014/jan/15/ofsted-chief-teachers-quitting-scandal

But they aren’t different, you can work out the costs. It’s something people should look at when they move company, as private sector companies can have wildly different pension schemes and other perks.

Well in that case you are keeping the person the same so comparison is easy. You cannot compare public to private in general unless you make an effort to look at similar roles.

Particularly when you factor in the annual leave and the value of the employer’s pension contribution, which as a defined benefit scheme is around 30% of salary.

Annual leave is pretty much the same as every job, in fact it’s based on the recommended government levels, you get more for years service but we don’t get bank holidays off, Christmas or New Year so that’s how we gain a bit ‘extra’ holidays. 30% Pension? I **** wish.

I get a good wage it works out about £42k a year but then again I’m a manager who has now got 16 staff from the 10 I had 5 years ago with another 4 on the way. On top of that I’m a medical professional who is accountable for patient care for any patient I attend, I prescribe numerous amounts of drugs under my own discretion no Dr to ask no other staff to ask as no longer work with another qualified member of staff. I work 12 hour shifts that run into 14 or 15 hour days on most occasions often with one break all day and usually after 8 hours (that’s home time to you 9 to fivers), I work weekends, nights as mentioned bank holidays. I’m accountable for managing the station, keeping an eye on budgets, monitor health and safety issues, maintenance, making sure vehicles are kept stocked, the equipment is adequate and available. I provide support for staff on many levels, I’ve counselled staff through many a difficult situation, I’m a mentor to students, I treat and discharge people at home. I’m expected to be a first commander at a major incident reporting for all my actions and decisions that could see my in court justifying why I chose to leave some untreated, whilst others got priority, I trained to respond to chemical and biological incidents as well as incidents I’m not even allowed to discuss with the public.

That’s just for starters it’s took me many years to get to that level, I’ve a BHsC degree that I did whilst working not 3 years sat at Uni. So don’t you think that just maybe it’s a justified wage?

So not something you can compare to private sector easy is it now.

Oh and the it’s not £27k starting wage for Paramedics.

Band 5

Point 16 21,478
Point 17 22,016
Point 18 22,903
Point 19 23,825
Point 20 24,799
Point 21 25,783
Point 22 26,822
Point 23 27,901

Drac – Moderator

Particularly when you factor in the annual leave and the value of the employer’s pension contribution, which as a defined benefit scheme is around 30% of salary.

Annual leave is pretty much the same as every job, in fact it’s based on the recommended government levels, you get more for years service but we don’t get bank holidays off, Christmas or New Year so that’s how we gain a bit ‘extra’ holidays. 30% Pension? I **** wish.

I get a good wage it works out about £42k a year but then again I’m a manager who has now got 16 staff from the 10 I had 5 years ago with another 4 on the way. On top of that I’m a medical professional who is accountable for patient care for any patient I attend, I prescribe numerous amounts of drugs under my own discretion no Dr to ask no other staff to ask as no longer work with another qualified member of staff. I work 12 hour shifts that run into 14 or 15 hour days on most occasions often with one break all day and usually after 8 hours (that’s home time to you 9 to fivers), I work weekends, nights as mentioned bank holidays. I’m accountable for managing the station, keeping an eye on budgets, monitor health and safety issues, maintenance, making sure vehicles are kept stocked, the equipment is adequate and available. I provide support for staff on many levels, I’ve counselled staff through many a difficult situation, I’m a mentor to students, I treat and discharge people at home. I’m expected to be a first commander at a major incident reporting for all my actions and decisions that could see my in court justifying why I chose to leave some untreated, whilst others got priority, I trained to respond to chemical and biological incidents as well as incidents I’m not even allowed to discuss with the public.

That’s just for starters it’s took me many years to get to that level, I’ve a BHsC degree that I did whilst working not 3 years sat at Uni. So don’t you think that just maybe it’s a justified wage?

So not something you can compare to private sector easy is it now.

Oh and the it’s not £27k starting wage for Paramedics.

Band 5

Point 16 21,478
Point 17 22,016
Point 18 22,903
Point 19 23,825
Point 20 24,799
Point 21 25,783
Point 22 26,822
Point 23 27,901

AND he’s also a STW moderator!

Hahaha!

Haha, as someone holding an MEng in Mechanical engineering, worked in industry, and who has been teaching Physics (and Maths) for 8 years I’m flattered you are all experts in my fields!

Without the insight of most of the posters in this thread, I’d say we’re screwed 😆

I work in the private sector but my OH is employed by a constabulary so I get most of what is said here.

My own experience of people working in the services and forces is that 90% do it for the pleasure of helping others and the passion for the role drives them forwards.

Nowadays the government seems to be beating this out of people hence the bad taste and people leaving in droves.

Drac, 42k is a fair bit of money – but nowhere near what your job description suggests. In a private company with that much responsibility you’d likely be on 10k more at the very least without working your life away every hour god sends.

I suspect your one who is passionate and caring about his role because as an ‘outsider’ if you like there is no way I’d go anywhere near that workload for the money.

Drac, 42k is a fair bit of money – but nowhere near what your job description suggests. In a private company with that much responsibility you’d likely be on 10k more at the very least without working your life away every hour god sends.

It is I’d never argue that, it’s actually £34.5k a year with a 25% shifts enhancement so if it was anything between the hours of 8am and 6pm without weekends I’d get £34.5k. Yes I’d say £50k+ would be about the right figure for private working 9-5, weekends off and no bank holidays with Xmas at home.

I suspect your one who is passionate and caring about his role because as an ‘outsider’ if you like there is no way I’d go anywhere near that workload for the money.

Those that don’t have compassion or care tend to be well, miserable git the biggest complainers and shirkers. They also tend to be the ones that leave as they think they get better elsewhere. Often they come back but that’s becoming a less likely now.

Certainly there’s those that come into the job having seen TV hype the role up without seeing the reality. The team behind 24hrs in A&E and Keeping Britain Alive have shown the reality it’d be great if they did a show just on the Ambulance service so the public could see what we deal with daily.

It’s a great job though. Last week I helped a young family bring their latest edition into the world, made sure the baby was Ok then made sure the mother wasn’t going to bleed out due to complications. Assuring Dad they’d fine with me whilst explaining the very real risks is nerving but rewarding. Having them shake your hand and the mother crying as “You’re so kind” makes you feel proud. Treating those who are seriously ill keeping them alive or even making them feel well again, having them thank you the relatives astounded that they look so well, getting your diagnoses and treatment right is a feeling you just can’t describe.

But of course I do it for my gold plated pension, mass amount of holidays and because I can retire early (68 currently) is why I really do it.

P.S. Is it ****.

Similar job responsibilities to Drac but paid £9k less. 😐

hey ho only another 5 1/2 yrs to do at most.

No shift allowances paid here.

Lucky bru ive an extra 8 yrs to do 🙁

Similar job responsibilities to Drac but paid £9k less.

Let’s not go there ay. 😀

hey ho only another 5 1/2 yrs to do at most.

25 in and 27 to go.

Let’s not go there ay

why’s that then? You really do seem to have an issue with the FS, or it is something taught to all ambo’s at ambo school. I doubt you have any idea about my job and my responsibility on the station and at incidents.

But as you say “let’s not go there”

14 hr day for me..today.

I’m a Paramedic Practitioner. Similar wage to Drac. 3 years Uni and 2 years post grad.

One hell of a job being a frontline Paramedic these days… Especially the lone working aspect. At times I feel overwhelmed by the amount of work I will need to do at an incident.

Take today

An elderly lady dropped sharp object on her foot… By the time I’d driven there on blue lights, gained entry with all my bags…stopped the bleeding and reassured her. Then started to clean her blood filled house as best as I could, made her a brew, complete set of observations..and sutured the wound it was an hour and a half.

It’s then paperwork, calls to her family/ carers/ GP and setting up a community care package, antibiotics and analgesia.

Then off to the next job… And repeat 10 times!!

why’s that then? You really do seem to have an issue with the FS, or it is something taught to all ambo’s at ambo school. I doubt you have any idea about my job and my responsibility on the station and at incidents.

Hey Ho! It was a joke.

You’re right, I know I have only a little knowledge of your role same as you have very little of mine but that’s why we’re now doing JESIP.

Our service is looking at creating Practitioners roles too Brack, it’s a role I’m tempted to go for.

You need to come south a little bit Mr Drac… Genourous relocation packages, recent recruitment for band 7 ECP’s, big uplift of band 6 PP’s and a generous relocation package/bribe!

YAS, it’s like NEAS only we get issued flat caps!

Seen those posts advertised a few weeks back jimbobo I’ve got all the requirements they were after already. It was tempting but means up lifting the family and property in the Dales was more than Northumberland so too costly.

Also I’m a bit put off with YAS upheaval just now.

construction industry here (large plc – around 45,000 staff)

most are sick of no pay increases for years x poor pension x crappy benefits x six month contracts = poor morale / no loyalty and poor performance – its not exactly rocket science

admin, engineers and site managers been leaving en mass all year – mainly to competitors for silly 20-25% pay increases

management hands tied by senior executives policies (usually too late to offer an improved package)

the senior executive team – know that market place is improving, yet no pay increases or recruitment, jst appear happy with the reducing overheads

and keep introducing ‘enhanced reward schemes’ for loyality i.e. money off vouchers/buy more holiday schemes etc- but staff don’t want 10% off vouchers for a trip to legoland ffs or buy an extra 2 weeks off on leave – that doesn’t pay their mortgage

as for the major clients – increasingly want more for absolutely nothing

Oh and the it’s not £27k starting wage for Paramedics.

Band 5

Point 16 21,478
Point 17 22,016
Point 18 22,903
Point 19 23,825
Point 20 24,799
Point 21 25,783
Point 22 26,822
Point 23 27,901

*stands corrected*

£3k pay increase in 10 years? Where do I sign? 🙂

Knowing what Drac and others in ‘command’ have to do/are responsible (the stuff Drac mentioned the public don’t know) for I have no idea how you can fit it all in (and stw modding)

£3k pay increase in 10 years? Where do I sign?

It’s not automatic.

It’s not automatic.

It’s not meant to be automatic no, but in many services it is.
We get ours annually no matter what we do or don’t do 😯

They’ve just opened up a new Band 6 ‘Senior Paramedic’ position which you can get with 2 years experience. They’re looking to move 500 or so people up to the position. No real benefit for the service or the public from what I can see but they’re hoping it’ll help staff retention.

So retaining staff doesnt help the service or the public

I’ve been working for the NHS for a year now, after +25 years in the private sector.

Words fail me to describe just how bad an organisation it is to work for. The best I can manage is:

“the pay is poor, but many are paid too much”

Worse part is that while it is the countries’ largest employer it actually operates in a federated way – consequentially it has all the costs but takes none of the advantages.

And everything is ‘lastminute.com’, most senior Managers I’ve met can’t even spell ‘strategy’, never mind understand it.

Obviously it also has the usual public sector problem of the ‘Exec’ constantly moving the goalposts and pandering to public ‘demand’ and their own ‘ideas’…

So retaining staff doesnt help the service or the public

All its achieving is to give staff who weren’t planning on leaving more money, the ones who are or were planning on leaving still will.
It’s not right to essentially give people more money for no more skills or responsibility in the name of staff retention. It just adds more to the wage bill for no real benefit.

Your post makes no sense, so it doesnt retain staff then?

But the you say

It’s not right to essentially give people more money for no more skills or responsibility in the name of staff retention. It just adds more to the wage bill for no real benefit.

can you not see how staff retention helps? Seriously?

br its the same in teaching and the federated bit is made even worse by most secondary schools now being academies so acting on their own. Its a complete mess.

It’s not right to essentially give people more money for no more skills or responsibility in the name of staff retention. It just adds more to the wage bill for no real benefit.

The NHS is very good as doing the opposite though, giving staff more skills and responsibility for no more money. The result, they nash off elsewhere for more money meaning the employer now has to retrain new staff and pay for vacancies to be filled with overtime. Adds more to the wage bill with absolutely no benefit.

Annual leave is pretty much the same as every job, in fact it’s based on the recommended government levels, you get more for years service but we don’t get bank holidays off, Christmas or New Year so that’s how we gain a bit ‘extra’ holidays. 30% Pension? I **** wish……

Interesting. From what you describe, here in the engineering consultancy sector someone with your level of responsibility and experience would probably be on 50-60k basic, with a profit share adding up to 10% of salary and a pension worth about another 10-12%. I really get sick of the ‘public sector has it easy’ myth. I have one colleague who waltzes in at 9.30, has multiple coffee and fag breaks, a whole hour for lunch and then disappears at 5.30, yet he constantly moans in a daily mail fashion about how inefficient the public sector is and how lazy the staff are. If only there was a ‘job-swap’ scheme that idiots like this could be sent on as he wouldn’t last 5 minutes in my Mrs’ public sector job.

Dazh I’m sad to say there’s position exist like his in the public sector too but it’s rarely frontline staff.

Interesting. From what you describe, here in the engineering consultancy sector someone with your level of responsibility and experience would probably be on 50-60k basic, with a profit share adding up to 10% of salary and a pension worth about another 10-12%

10%-12% Pension? And they call mine gold plated.

Presumably yours is a final salary, index linked pension though ? Unlike a “money purchase” thing where a crappy annuity has to be purchased.

can you not see how staff retention helps? Seriously?

Of course I can see how staff retention helps, I just can’t see the point in bringing in a scheme which tries to retain staff who were never going to leave while the ones who wanted to leave still want to and still will.