I agree with mat about the silly hikes in bhp with just a measly chip. what you need to do is get YOUR OWN car on a rolling road to see what it can put out as standard. THEN dyno it again after then chip fitting.you might even find that the 130bhp tdi that you had was only kicking out 115 in the first place. when the golf with the tdi 150bhp engines came out they reconed they were closer to 180bhp as standard.so a lot of folk paying superchips for the chip thought they were getting this instant 30bhp from a chip that wasnt even mapped for their car in the first place.

Theres so many folk on forums that will tell you they had a superchip or whatever on its own and they actually ended up with less after spending £300. So many peugeot tuners will do cams and something like an emerald ecu and get the likes of wayne at chipwizards or sandy down south to sort it out as well as possible on the rolling road.. but there is NO WAY they go there expecting a chip/map to give them 30% increases in bhp and torque without a bit of engine work.

i put 266mm brakes on my car.it had 247mm as standard. its got better callipers too and the braking with the standard brakes was crap compared to whats on it now. still not brilliant but with a a bit more power than when i first got it, and more importantly,eibach springs and bilsteins.. it corners better and feels more planted. so you just want to go faster in it. this is where you need to start upgrading brakes. brakes should be first in all cases!

SM, not trying to get one over you at all, just offering up a different view. I have no idea why the 335d has bigger brakes…is it heavier?

I know for a fact that the mk4 Ibiza Cupra gets AP Racing 6 pot calipers in the UK, but only 4 pot (unbranded) in other countries…why is this? Perhaps UK buyers like to see a label on their brakes, I don’t know. But why would Seat put 4 pot on some cars & 6 pot on others for a car with the same performance…?

And how do bigger brakes help me if the current ones can overcome the tyres grip on the road? Genuine question…how do uprated brakes help slow a car if the limit of grip of the tyres can be overcome by the standard ones…?

Stumpy – think of MTB brakes – a 140mm disk can overcome the grip of most tyres but many fit over 200mm rotors.

Yes most brakes will make a car skid (although most have ABS nowadays) if slammed on but there are many times when you just need to stop as quickly as possible from high speeds with no chance of skidding – better brakes will do this. Not just rotor size but also caliper type (single pot, four pot or even six pots) all affect how quickly you stop. Good brakes also make you go faster – you can brake later. Maybe that’s actually more dangerous then?!

Let’s take a slightly extreme example – a 911 Turbo – massive acceleration, grip and some of the shortest braking distances of any car made today. Despite the nutty performance, one of these driven sensibly (unlikely!) is probably one of the “safest” cars on the road. Slam on the brakes at 100 and you stop very very quickly indeed, in a totally straight line with no issues.

Now let’s take a Perodua Kelisa – weedy engine, dreadful handling, almost no brakes. Stop from 80 (they don’t get to 100) and the car will take about twice the distance as the 911 to stop, will probably fishtail all over the place and will start to skid very easily due to tiny tyres and cr4p brakes.

I had a badger run in front of me the other days – was doing 40 and stopped in a stupidly quick distance. If I’d been in our Jimny, I would have hit it – without any doubt. If better brakes aren’t safer, then my names is Sheila. I guess manufs could “overbrake” their cars but I should think sticking mega expensive carbon ceramic stoppers on a Focus 1.6 may increase the cost of the car a wee bit – so cost is an issue.

Surely a remap is pointless if you don’t upgrade tyres/brakes/suspension ? I’ve got a 140bhp VAG diesel and to be honest its plenty quick enough for day to day driving

Exactly. The golden rule of tuning – Make it stop and handle better before you make it go faster. 🙂

And I can think of one modern car I’ve driven a lot that has brakes so bad they worry me. There’s no way I would want it to go faster without getiing rid of the ‘ohgodamIgonnafugginstopornot?’ moments it suffers…..

Don’t see why you’re arguing with molgrips surfmatt, his argument sounds reasonable to me. remap just gives you some extra accelleration in a straight line, it doesn’t turn your car into a sports car.
If you just use that power to get away from lights or overtake on a long straight road but don’t drive any faster (velocity is not the same as accelleration – I’m sure I don’t need to tell you) you’ll be fine.
If you try to drive faster in a straight line or go barrelling into corners faster or try to change direction like a sports car you’ll come unstuck.
Yes using the extra power whilst cornering or in the wet will get you into trouble but by that time most drivers are screwed and bigger brakes won’t help as they wont know how to correct (me included)
in other words the danger element is once again the **** in the driving seat

Powerful cars get bigger brakes but they also get fatter rubber, better suspension and are designed to be driven in a whole different manner (ie raced) the fact that most users will be using them for commuting on uk roads at 30mph 10mph is neither here nor there.

Yes most brakes will make a car skid (although most have ABS nowadays) if slammed on but there are many times when you just need to stop as quickly as possible from high speeds with no chance of skidding – better brakes will do this.

Interesting. I had no idea better brakes can make a car stop quicker if the standard ones already produce more braking force than the tyres can handle.

Okay then smartar5e, you approach a roundabout from 60 in a car of the same weight with the same tyres but with better brakes than an equivalent car with weedier brakes and see what happens. If you skid you’re a crap driver anyway – ABS or no ABS.

I cannot believe the ar5e clenching pickiness here – better brakes make you stop more quickly. FULL STOP.

Make a car faster and you should fit better brakes. FULL STOP.

It cannot be any more obvious yet I’m getting the full STW muppet/attempted smartar5e treatment once again.

Fine – chip your cars to 30% more power but leave the brakes alone. Just don’t drive anywhere near me please. And don’t expect any mpg gains. And don’t expect your drivetrain to thank you for it. Or your tyres.

Make a car faster and you should fit better brakes. FULL STOP

You only need better brakes if you are approaching a corner faster mate.

Just because you have a remap doesn’t mean this is automatically going to be the case.

Most people on open roads do not floor it up to bends, do they?

yet I’m getting the full STW muppet/attempted smartar5e treatment once again.

It takes two Mat you rude bastard 🙁

I cannot believe the ar5e clenching pickiness here – better brakes make you stop more quickly. FULL STOP.

Make a car faster and you should fit better brakes. FULL STOP

SM, you’re not putting it over very well but I do agree with you.

in other words the danger element is once again the **** in the driving seat

Indeed. Very true.
Most people on this thread, and in general, would notice more of an improvement in speed and economy if they got some advanced training than a chip will give them.

But that’s not cool, is it?
You can’t brag about how powerful your car is, and how much better it is than everyone elses in the pub/on the forum if you get some training instead, can you?

There’s enough people blank me on here every time I mention advanced training to enable me to work that one out….. 🙂

You can’t brag about how powerful your car is, and how much better it is than everyone elses in the pub/on the forum if you get some training instead, can you?

That’s probably the heart of the issue with regards remaps 🙂

PP you are basically agreeing with me I think.. in that if you can’t drive within the limits of whatever car you have, you are dangerous – regardless of the bhp.

PP – I do my best to brag about IAM and cop training too… 😉 😆

Some powerful/braggy cars are cr4p too. REALLY cr4p.

My new neighbour has a Mustang…

My new neighbour has a Mustang…

😆

Bet this doesn’t need a re-map… 😆

in that if you can’t drive within the limits of whatever car you have, you are dangerous – regardless of the bhp.

You can be dangerous without ever getting anyhwere near any ‘limit’. I fact most people who are, do exactly that IME.

It’s about being better than you are. Improving. Learning a different way of driving that you’re simply not aware of until someone tells you about it.
I can vividly remember having a one-to-one lesson where I was getting it all wrong. I was struggling with one aspect in particular. So the observer walked me round a corner on this country lane we’d been using, and explained it, stage by stage: What to look at. Where to be. What was happening. What to do etc. And only when you understand it, when someone who knows what they’re doing takes the time to help you understand it, can you go out and try it yourself. And in this instance I’m takling about maybe 40-ish mph in a 60 zone.
And there’s absolutely no way somone with a laptop and a rolling road can help you with that. Knowledge is worth 3x the power under the bonnet. 🙂

Bigger brakes generally have better heat dissipation, they allow you to stop time after time consistently when the duty cycle on them is high.

That said some brakes have a better feel than others and allow you to get closer to locking up and hence most effective braking.

I know a few people who claim to have brake fade on the road, I am not that mad 🙂

Had plenty of issues with brake fade on my TVR on track though, but as you would imagine the duty cycle on the brakes in this situation is much higher.

If the 335d has the same brakes as the 135 petrol they are the same as the huge yellow 6 pot motor sport ones, great brakes 🙂

PP – agree entirely. Off to have a little sit down.

Tailgating, poor observation, poor road positioning, lack of concentration, etc, etc – all likely to get you in trouble and all done by the majority of drivers much of the time. Zilch to do with speed. But give these “average” drivers more power without any more control and things can get nastier more quickly.

Bazzer – I had brake fade in my old Saxo VTR when driving down the 21 hairpins from Alpe d’Huez. Most unsettling!

335d brakes are the same size as the 135i but don’t use the same yellow calipers.

But give these “average” drivers more power without any more control and things can get nastier more quickly.

I normally think you get picked on a bit SM but that comment it total carp.

Someone chipping a 150BHP oil burner to 180BHP is not going to turn them into a moving death platform overnight. It really wont make that much difference.

The worst drivers in the world are the ones who think they are good and modern cars do a lot to fool people into thinking they are good drivers. That includes your BMW even though its a RWD drivers car its still a piece of p*ss to drive fast. I know I am not a driving god when I drive a 300BHP 500kg car with no electronics to stop me from crashing. It shows me my mistakes and makes me realise in the scheme of things I am very average.

But give these “average” drivers more power without any more control and things can get nastier more quickly.

They do them in black too 🙂

Bazzer – I do drive many other cars including the wifes lightweight RWD/4WD 1.3 litre 85bhp Jimny – which can actually be quite fun because you have to extract every single bhp from the engine while driving along with a fairly “lively” chassis that has a penchant for sliding it’s rear wheels. Total opposite to the BM.

Yes you drive a near rocket on the track but we are talking about road cars on public highways here. Not track cars where crashing headlong into a truck/lampost/building is rather unlikely.

Turn to traction fully off on a 335d and then drive it fast… That’s when it really comes alive.

Fine if you disagree about chipped cars needing better brakes but I don’t think it’s total cr4p. Just a difference of opinion.

Fine if you disagree about chipped cars needing better brakes but I don’t think it’s total cr4p. Just a difference of opinion.

I just think in the real world it does not make a lot of difference. If you are seeing brake fade on public roads in a modern car, its not the chip that’s the problem its your head.

Changing the make/model of tyre on your car could make a bigger difference in my opinion !!

PS I do drive it on the road occasionally, then I take put it away until I forget how crap it is on the road again 🙂

Years ago i modified a 200sx, went from 170bhp to around 350bhp. I was waiting on the brakes calipers, i’d finished the work on the engine and the suspension so gave it a quick blast. That was an experience. I got to an indicated 150 before thinking about the lack of brakes…..

It suffered a lot of fade on track days, fitting bigger discs helped and i think this where uprated brakes come into play. Under repeated heavy braking, smaller brakes cant dissipate the heat quick enough. Manufactures may assumne that bigger engined cars travel higher speeds on average, so fit bigger discs to compensate.

I’ve chipped my current car Audi A2 (rolling road remap at stealth tuning)and its improved the overall drive no end. The engine was very peaky before, now it pulls better thoughout the rev range. Not felt the need to change brakes though, they are more than ample to stop the car quickly.

Power wise, the rolling road produced 78 bhp as standard, now 101bhp. Torque was 140 lb/ft to 205 ib/ft. In 3 years, ive had no issues with tyre wear, drivetrain etc. Not sure about the MPG, the car does nearly 70 to the gallon, it got alot worse due to a sticky brake pad, but i cant say its improved MPG any though. Fitting a taller 5 gear obviously made a big difference, which was possible due to the higher torque of the engine.

In fact, of the 4 or 6 cars that i’ve had “chipped” none have shown any problems. In fact the nissan above still gets ragged up and down goodwood, on 150k miles. Drivetrain is largely original, except the rear diff was changed to that from a S14, but only for longer ratio and LSD

Okay then smartar5e, you approach a roundabout from 60 in a car of the same weight with the same tyres but with better brakes than an equivalent car with weedier brakes and see what happens. If you skid you’re a crap driver anyway – ABS or no ABS.

If the weedier brakes are ‘good enough’, improving them further makes no difference!

i’ve not driven a car produced in the last 10 years or so with inadequate brakes to stop from 60mph as quickly as the tyres can handle.

Sure, heat dissipation is better on bigger brakes, but you’re talking about emergancy braking not track day driving!

Bazzer – fair enough. Nice to see someone who actually knows what their talking about (although I still disagree) rather than the usual suspects.

But yes, apart from maybe driving in the Alps, brake fade on public roads should not happen.

Clong – modest bhp ride in the A2 and I think the 200 is one car that can handle a lot of uprating without massive mods. Bet the 350bhp one was “interesting” in the wet?!

If the weedier brakes are ‘good enough’, improving them further makes no difference!

What’s “good enough” then? I want to stop as quickly as I can whenever needed.

And there are a few modern cars with cr4p brakes. You carry on with your “just good enough” brakes. I’ll stick to “very good” brakes. I should think the badger I just avoided a few weeks ago (40 to 0 in a very short distance) is grateful anyway!

Bazzer – fair enough. Nice to see someone who actually knows what their talking about (although I still disagree) rather than the usual suspects.

He’s saying exactly what I’ve been trying to say this whole time 🙂

No he isn’t.

Yes he is.

Aye, very interesting in the wet. I was using a T3 hybrid turbo, on a 1.8 engine it was very laggy. Coming out of a corner at 120+, sideways at full lock took some practice if you wanted to hold it on the throttle. At the time i did these mods, not many people did much with the 200sx so it was very much a suck it and see. The intercooler was from a Saab 9000, turbo from a cosworth. The end result was surprising to say the least, straight line accelaration was something else. On one track day, i hada right royal battle with some uber porche, he gained one hell of a lot of ground into the corners and through them but on the straights the nissain gained it back and then some. We got back to the paddok, my brakes were smoking so much the car vanished in the smoke. Porche driver pulls up, get out of his and throws his helmet on the ground, shouts “i cant believe i been beaten by F****** nissan” and storms off.

I saw a Civic type R’s brakes catch on fire at Cadwell Park. It was so funny I said to the guy you need to throw a bucket of water on them, he said that he didnt want to warp the disks. Obviously happy for his car to catch on fire though 🙂

There comes a point where the brakes are no longer the limiting factor in how fast you can stop, and i’d bet good money 99% of cars are past this point (at legal speeds on public roads), and are limited by the grip of their tyres rather than the size of their brakes.

This is what i mean by brakes being ‘good enough’.

I know a few people who claim to have brake fade on the road, I am not that mad

I’ve done it, once that I can remember, back in about 1992. I had a 1.0 Fiat Panda and this bloke in an MG Maestro comes hoofing past me on a (Wide but single carrigeway) ring road. (Round Colchester IIRC)
So at the roundabout it opens out into 2 lanes, and I decide to outbrake him and overtake. He passes me on the straight. I outbrake again, pass on the roundabout again. He overtakes me again. I do the same again, come into the roundabout on the inside lane, brake…..errr fek….nowt there! Oops! So I fly round the outside of him, unable to slow very much at all, sliding and screeching all over the place and going noticeably faster than the last twice I’d come past.

He didn’t even try to overtake me again after that, oddly…….

I shat myself, but it was funny!

LOL one of the worst handling/braking but stupidly powerful cars was the MG Maestro Turbo. You could have a 1000BHP in a golf and it still would not be as bad 🙂

My mate had one at the time I had a Renault 21 turbo, the Renault may have had massive torque steer but at least it had brakes 🙂

PS Edited to add my R21 turbo was chipped/tuned to 250BHP one of the most fun cars I have owned, but that might be through rose tinted oakely’s 🙂

Clong – a mate had an unmodded s14 -fun car but a bit odd looking!
I got utterly blasted off by a very modded s13 (found out later it had over 300bhp) when I had my R32 Golf – DOH! And before the hate Police jump in, it was off the lights and we both backed off once we hit the legal limit.

HH – would you want your car to be tested up to 70mph when designed and that’s it? Would you want your tyres to “just grip enough” and your safety shell to be “just good enough?”

I wouldn’t. I want everything to be just good enough plus a lot more.

Ah yes, my comments about brakes apply to modern cars!

We got an old MkIII Fiesta to help Mrs Grips get to grips with UK roads – it was an auto. She came back one day having had to make a slightly hurried stop (not quite emergency) on one bit of road and said that the car had skidded badly and she was worried about it. I went out to the same bit of road and braked hard (no cars around) and it did indeed skid.

However I realised that it was exactly how the MkII I learned to drive in handled, and it was normal for those crappy old cars!

We’ve come a looong way. The Ibiza I had had previously could stop so quickly it made my eyeballs feel like they were bulging out of my head, and that’s without the ABS coming in.

Would you want your tyres to “just grip enough” and your safety shell to be “just good enough?”

Depends what you mean by good enough doesn’t it? To me, good enough means able to stop extremely quickly, which all my cars can do.

I guess it comes down to whether you really believe you brakes are overwhelming your tyres. Most modern cars have quite a lot of rubber on the road these days.

My Leon FR is really just a warm hatch and has 225 tyres. In the dry on the rare occasion I’ve had to call on all the braking power it braked in a straight line without triggering the ABS and pulled up pretty quickly.

My brother has an EVO VIII with 235 tyres and big Brembo 4pots his brakes can have you literally hanging off the belts without really troubling the grip of the tyres at least in a straight line in the dry. The difference in retardation isn’t down to 10mm of extra rubber on the road its down to the power of the brakes. If my Leon had these brakes I guarantee it would stop quicker

While I disagree that a chipped car will always need better brakes, tyres are definitely not the limiting factor to braking power in most cases

True about the tyres, hence my Ibiza experiences. However, when there’s gravel/mud/water on the road it’s a different story.

molgrips – Member
Bazzer – fair enough. Nice to see someone who actually knows what their talking about (although I still disagree) rather than the usual suspects.

He’s saying exactly what I’ve been trying to say this whole time

Me three…..

Surf-mat – you do have a way of coming over all ‘I know everything, everyone else is an idiot’ on threads like these and belittling others who’s opinions don’t match yours.

Then you come out with things like this:

I do drive many other cars including the wifes lightweight RWD/4WD 1.3 litre 85bhp Jimny – which can actually be quite fun because you have to extract every single bhp from the engine while driving along with a fairly “lively” chassis that has a penchant for sliding it’s rear wheels.

and in my mind, all your holier-than-thou preaching and talk of advanced driving goes out the window. Especially after comments like this:

If you skid you’re a crap driver anyway – ABS or no ABS.

So if I skid, I’m a crap driver, but if you drive so close to the limit of a bouncy 4×4 (which is quite frankly not the best tool for the job) that you are sliding it’s rear wheels……..what does that make you? Driving God? Stig-Wannabe?

You rubbished a comment I made earlier regarding marketing requirements, but speaking about this with a colleague earlier on who used to work in the car industry he reckoned that a customer intending to buy a more powerful car would expect more powerful feeling brakes whether they were ‘needed’ or not, so they would be fitted.

I would only be getting a remap to improve acceleration, particularly in-gear. So i still fail to see how a re-map would be a danger without improving the brakes if I still stick to 30 in a 30, 40 in a 40, 70 in a 70……..the remap hasn’t altered the stopping distance at those speeds. I am still able to judge corner entry speeds etc. and never drive on the limit of my cars performance anyway, so have plenty of headroom, whereas you driving your 1.3 Jimny with it’s rear-end sliding about, eking every last horsepower have no headroom whatsoever……