Resin to fibre ratio is crucial as is lay up…New kinesis coming out this month..https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=597659453586859&set=pb.216936891659119.-2207520000.1369137173.&type=3&theater

Having seen a couple of Chinarello Dogmas, the build quality and finish is superb – easily comparable to the real deal.

Rubbish, They may look with beer goggles from a distance but in reality its:

We had a Chinarello in the other week for a new headset, – couldnt get one as it was all non standard and when you saw how the steerer had been made by simply gluing a tube of carbon to the fork legs then you realise why its cheap shit. not to mention how the bars snapped a week later.

If it fools you, then go a head. Just hope I’m not following you down a hill.

Strikes me as a sign of being untrustworthy & overly obsessed with status.

Just to clarify, I’m looking for a cheap bike that I can thrash and crash without worrying. I don’t care what it says on it, as I clearly stated in my first post, these are available for the same money as a ‘nude’ frame and invited thoughts.

To be honest, it’s provoked an interesting discussion, and I’m absolutely AMAZED that people are ADAMANT that frames are poor quality and dangerous just because they have a counterfeit name on the side, whereas bikes from the same manufacturers are being sold for upwards of £1000 after being “branded” by British bike companies.

Yes, there are some poor quality manufacturers in China, but there’s enough information online to form an accurate opinion on who’s worth buying from if you’re prepared to take a bit of time. If I bought ANY bike from the Far East, I’d be doing my homework first!

It’s certainly interesting that our very English sense of fair play and values sways people’s judgment of people who work within a completely different set of laws values, and indeed, a different culture…

(and for the record, it’s highly unlikely I would go for one of these,just interested in peoples’ thoughts)

Actually, you’re ignoring half the thread that it saying, “if it doesn’t matter, why not just get the nude one?”

Counterfeit goods are typically the tip of the iceberg, people behind these products can also be linked to human and drug traffiking, do you really want to be putting money in these peoples hands just because you want a cheap bike.

Other risks to consider; trading standards can conficate and destroy your bike (part sand all), as could customs if you take it away.

Finally the build quality is less so do you really want to be flying down a hill at 35mph to discover the bonding process was short cut and as you lie in a bloodied heap, who’s picking up the tab for your cheap bike now?

I’m looking for a cheap bike that I can thrash and crash without worrying.

Mate if you want to win races or finish rides… then I would reconsider getting a frame from these people,try hongfu or focus carbons or go alloy.If you crash as a result of a poorly made frame,wheels,bars… aka bits that usually break first… then Im going to bet that you’ll wish youd gone for an alternate

Counterfeit goods are typically the tip of the iceberg, people behind these products can also be linked to human and drug traffiking, do you really want to be putting money in these peoples hands just because you want a cheap bike

I don;t think the average counterfeit bike maker from China is doing a roaring side-line in human/drug trafficking. The time when it becomes linked to CRIME is when the items are sold as genuine in Europe; there’s a massive trade in counterfeit drugs and even car parts which are ending up in reputable retailers which are a worry. A Chinarello is not funding a drug war.

Shibboleth – Member
I don’t care what it says on it, as I clearly stated in my first post, these are available for the same money as a ‘nude’ frame and invited thoughts.

I don’t believe you. 😀
You said the fake looked far better than the naked one and that you had no problem with the ethical issues.
You’d obviously prefer to ride the fake.

To be honest, it’s provoked an interesting discussion, and I’m absolutely AMAZED that people are ADAMANT that frames are poor quality and dangerous just because they have a counterfeit name on the side, whereas bikes from the same manufacturers are being sold for upwards of £1000 after being “branded” by British bike companies.

Which of the companies you mentioned in your OP are branding cheap Chinese frames?
The Ribble Sportive & On One SL are built by Pedalforce – a highly respected manufacturer in their own right.
They are not, by any means, a ‘Chinarello’ or low quality fake.
Totally different things.

I don’t care what he buy’s or rides.

Can someone explain to me though why a frame that is circa £400 with no stickers on is fine to ride and race without worrying about its strength/build quality. BUT one that has stickers is going to collapse and KILL all the small children in the world??

Is there something in the glue that makes these manufacturers suddenly forget how to layup carbonfibre? Or is it the cost of the stickers that means they have to take (further)shortcuts to meet the target price?

£50 more, UK Shop. May be branded up, but Holdsworth have been around for yonks.

FWIW, everyone I’ve ever met who rides an actual Cervelo is a mardy git 😉

Holdsworth Trentino, Frame & Fork £500

surely a Holdsworth blah blah blah is exactly the same as a unbranded Hong Fu? they probably have to make them for less so everyone can make a profit and get them painted?

anyway get a Hong Fu FM066 SL, under a kilo and only positive reviews that i’ve seen

Shiboleth and also Mr Bowden,

I think its very important here to differentiate between reputable manufacturers in the east which produce for well known western brands (and their own non branded items) and other companies which produce knock offs.

If the seller is willing to sell a bike as original when it is not. He is equally likely to be able tell you it is made with carbon fibre or even a certain type of fibre when it is not. I am not aware if any reputable chinese manufacturer who produces for the west and also sells fakes. You think the cycling industry is likely to stand for this behavior? not really.

You buy a fake you take a chance, because you have ZERO comeback means there is less incentive for the producer to provide quality goods. Previous posters here have told of their experience and observations of poorer work. This is not a surprise. I could make you a fake bike in my kitchen and if there was no comeback, I would use cheaper material. I would use Chinese carbon fibre, I would put fewer layers into it I would avoid any elevated temperature curing, I would also not bother with good tooling and just use more filler. Any you know what? probably you would know no difference until your teeth get smashed on a kerb.

What you say about T700 and T1000 fibres makes absolutely no sense in this discussion. And the part about manufactures trying to build reputations, through making fake goods and selling them to mugs makes even less sense.

Could you walk me through the logic of how buying a fake Cervelo, thereby increasing the sales and profits for the people who make fake Cervelos, doesn’t harm Cervelo? I’m not getting it.

Each to his own and all that (Declaration: I own some Jokeleys) but don’t kid yourself that by buying a knock off of a premium branded product you aren’t doing harm to them.

Which of the companies you mentioned in your OP are branding cheap Chinese frames?
The Ribble Sportive & On One SL are built by Pedalforce – a highly respected manufacturer in their own right.
They are not, by any means, a ‘Chinarello’ or low quality fake.
Totally different things.

The Ribble Stealth/R872 is an exact copy of a De Rosa. There seems to be a suggestion that the same company make the mike for De Rosa AND sell it unbranded, or branded Ribble, or whatever else you ask. Probably even Cervelo, Pinarello or De Rosa I would imagine – the Chinese government impose virtually zero copyright control if it’s at the expense of an export sale. (Google about fake BMW X5s if you want this fact corroborating.)

So yes, the Ribble is exactly that – a Chinarello, a fake, a knock off, a from-the-same-mould-as-a-top-end-Italian-bike-but-made-with-T700-and-sold-for-a-fraction-of-the-price… Whatever you want to call it.

I am not aware if any reputable chinese manufacturer who produces for the west and also sells fakes. You think the cycling industry is likely to stand for this behavior? not really.

As I said earlier, Mirage. They sell a Cervelo S5 replica.

What you say about T700 and T1000 fibres makes absolutely no sense in this discussion.

Interesting that you’re happy to say that about my comment but don’t seem to be able to back it up. Would you care to please?

think its very important here to differentiate between reputable manufacturers in the east which produce for well known western brands (and their own non branded items) and other companies which produce knock offs.

Fairy Nuff. If they’re coming out of different factories than the well regarded ones, then it’s reasonable to put a ? over them.

Could you walk me through the logic of how buying a fake Cervelo, thereby increasing the sales and profits for the people who make fake Cervelos, doesn’t harm Cervelo? I’m not getting it.

It’s not rocket science Edlong… Tell me if I’m going too fast for you.

1. I’m* looking for a cheap carbon frame, c.£400

2. Cervelo don’t make anything that sells for less that £2000.

3. Cervelo aren’t on my* shopping list

4. Lots of Chinese manufactures make frames for c.£400

5. They are on my* shopping list

6. If I* buy a cheap Chinese frame with “Cervelo” painted on the side, the only person I’m* depriving of a sale would be a cheap Chinese manufacturer that didn’t paint “Cervelo” on the side of his frames…

Are you following?

*I/I’m/my = the hypothetical shopper/Devil’s advocate.

interesting old article on ‘innerring’ web site about who makes what and where, throws a bit of light on who/how cheap carbon frames come about,and factual not hearsay

Seems a bit weird to assume that all frames from China will be roughly the same quality. Last time I looked, China was quite big. I wouldn’t even assume that all frames from, say, Northampton, would be the same.

my concerns are
1 it’s fraud
2 you dont know what you are getting and this if you are racing you are putting the health of other riders at risk as you don’t know how reliable it will be
3 there are many reputable manufacturers making their own blank frames to a very high standard for the price point.

if you want cheap then buy cheap, for that you can also get good quality blank frames, but buying counterfit goods is simply wrong.
Surely your parents brought you up better to know right from wrong.

There is a not a day that goes by in Cycling Internetland where this topic does not get discussed.

Some people get all high and mighty either because they have shelled out over a months wages on a lovely bit of carbon kit that is warrantied to the hilt or they are just a bit snobbish. They will post pictures of cheap Chinese frames that have broken with newspaper in them and dodgy youtube videos supposedly showing how weak sheap CF is.

Some people will get all Guardian reader about it, saying “screw the man yeah”, “all you’re paying for is like a brand yeah and this way the poor people of China get all of the money yeah” and “What have Pinarello ever done for you?”

The reality seems to be somewhere in the middle. Some people on road forums have cheap chinese bikes and love them saying they are as good as their nicest dandy horse, some buy them and they are dogs. It’s a gamble, you pay your money and take your choice, you stump up thousands and you’re likely to get a better frame then a stumping up a few hundred but it’s no 100% certainty, top frames break too.

For my money I’d get a plain Hong Fu or Flyxii frame and put my name in flip off big letters in bright white on the downtube, why advertise someone else’s company when you could advertise yourself and boost your own ego? OUT OF THE WAY JONR COMING THROUGH!!!!! (probably quite slowly and wobbling as I’m likely to have had a drink)

It’s funny how people will change how they see right from wrong when it suits them, as the OP disagrees with the pricing practices of Cervelo he then thinks it ok to buy a counterfit product to save money.
maybe it would be better for the OP if he wants a cheap Cervelo to buy a stolen one, same principle still illegal, and someone will probably get a good insurance pay out because of the theft anyway so no harm done.

, it’ll be as good as any other £400 Chinese carbon frame

I get that the same company who produce for cervelo of de rosa might sell an unbranded version of the same thing, I can’t see that they would sell a fake branded version….which means you cannot assume that the quality of the fake version is the same as the unbranded version. It might be but you cannot make that leap… Plus it’s illegal and runs the risk if being impounded and you losing your money, and it might/probably be a bit shit.

it makes no sense to buy the fake one other than ” it looks nicer” which is sort of pathetic seeing as you intended to use it for crit racing were presumably you’ll let everyone think its a real one , which makes you look like a douche

Sounds like the OP just wants the knock-off Cervelo and our blessing then…

as the OP disagrees with the pricing practices of Cervelo he then thinks it ok to buy a counterfit product to save money.

Sancho, I’ve mentioned this once or twice or 5 FRICKING TIMES ON THIS THREAD ALREADY, but for the benefit of the hard of thinking like yourself:

I ALREADY HAVE A BRAND NEW CERVELO R5 BOUGHT FROM AN AUTHORISED DEALER!!!

But I don’t want to enter a crit race on a six-and-a-half-grand bike due to the amount of crashes.

so frickin what if you have one already.
that doesnt somehow change the copy frame to a genuine frame its still counterfit and illegal.

if youre worried about crit racing and crashes then get an aluminium frame ffs

OP I think you should buy the fake just because of how comically angry it clearly makes some people. 🙂

Can you get the lettering on the side changed to sanchvelo? 😈

I ALREADY HAVE A BRAND NEW CERVELO R5 BOUGHT FROM AN AUTHORISED DEALER!!!

So buy the Hong Fu or something similar, or an alloy Kinesis or something – I really can’t see how you can continue to think you justify buying a counterfeit frame.

make the angries even angrier by buying one of the fake ones and then peeling the stickers off!

why buy a 6 grand bike and not race it… It must be the most expensive shopping bike ever…

So how does this ‘devaluing the brand’ work exactly then?

Punter who normally wouldn’t buy a Cervelo buys a Chervelo knock off because it’s cheap. Would the punter have bought a genuine Cervelo had the knock off not been available? No. So no sale lost to Cervelo.

Punter rides CHervelo on a club ride. Other riders notice bike. This goes one of two ways – either the other riders notice bike and question quality (hard to see on a club ride non?) and decide that (thinking its a gen-u-ine Cervelo) they will never buy one due to shocking quality – Bad times for brand. OR they like the look of the frame and wander off to buy a gen-u-ine one based on seeing *Shibboleth’s bike. OR not wanting to spend C£2k on a frame they also buy a Chervelo and the process repeats. Sounds like a 50/50 result for Cervelo.

I struggle to see how buying a fake devalues the brand. I’ve got a Storck that I paid a lot of money for. If they started banging out knock off Storcks for £400 would I be upset? No, I wouldn’t.

*Other purchasers of Chervelos are available

It’s not rocket science Edlong… Tell me if I’m going too fast for you.

1. I’m* looking for a cheap carbon frame, c.£400

2. Cervelo don’t make anything that sells for less that £2000.

3. Cervelo aren’t on my* shopping list

4. Lots of Chinese manufactures make frames for c.£400

5. They are on my* shopping list

6. If I* buy a cheap Chinese frame with “Cervelo” painted on the side, the only person I’m* depriving of a sale would be a cheap Chinese manufacturer that didn’t paint “Cervelo” on the side of his frames…

Are you following?

Yep, I’m following and I understand all of the above. However, none of the above really answers the challenge I put, which is getting around the fact that, regardless of whether you are now, have been in the past, or might be in the future, a customer for the real thing, by putting £400 in the hands of the people knocking out fake frames, you are encouraging the manufacture and sale of fake frames, and that this is what damages the makers of the real thing.

Taking your point 6 then: Faker gets the sale, and you have, as you acknowledge, directly deprived the maker of a similarly priced, but not pretending to be something it’s not, frame of that sale. What impact do you think that behaviour has on the market? What decisions do you think that might influence other frame makers towards when the decision to go down the “cheap and unbranded” or “fake” route to market is being made? Your own point pretty much acknowledges that you are encouraging the maker of cheap Chinese CF frames to “paint “Cervelo” on the side of his frames”.

How is that not a bad thing?

How do you reckon that doesn’t have an impact on the makers of the real thing?

OP I think you should buy the fake just because of how comically angry it clearly makes some people.

I might just do this… It does make me laugh that despite the fact that I’ve said on more than one occasion that I’m very unlikely to get one of these, people seem to be frothing at the keyboards about it!

It’s as though they view the big bike brands as demi-gods that must never have their names taken in vane. The same people are probably perfectly happy riding round in fake Oakleys, or buying a hooky Rolex or Prada sunnies off a looky-looky man in Marbs.

They’re also perfectly happy riding a bike, driving a car or watching a TV that lifts technology directly from another manufacturer.

I mentioned earlier that the Chinese government doesn’t pursue copyright claims, China is an emerging nation in terms of manufacturing and if the government doesn’t impose copyright or IP laws in the same way as ours does, your average citizen will have a very different attitude towards that sort of thing.

Sancho said Surely your parents brought you up better to know right from wrong. earlier. The people making fake frames don’t necessarily judge it as ‘wrong’, in the same way that western cultures didn’t before people started getting all hoity and making laws to protect their own interests.

The reason antique furniture is so easy to date is that in days of yore, furniture makes just copied what others had made. Just because they weren’t copying logos doesn’t mean they were copying anything any less distinctive – we’re talking about a time before logos, when a large proportion of the population couldn’t read.

I think that as an analogy, this is pretty close. Your average Chinese factory worker can’t even read the word “Cervelo”.

I struggle to see how buying a fake devalues the brand.

I struggle to understand how an adult living in a market economy would struggle to see this.

maybe I am missing something here.

Bike theft is booming in the Uk, and that is clearlly fuelled by cyclists happy to buy stolen goods because they are cheap
so when people are happy to break the law to buy counterfit bikes as they are cheap then its clearly the cyclist fraternity that needs to look at itself and ask what it needs to do to get its house in order.
I see counterfit goods in the same way I see stolen goods and that is simply illegal.
I dont mind people laughing at me for it or for even putting the two together. But I bet not many on this site have had the guts to get people arrested and sent to prison for buying/handling stolen goods, burglary and shop lifting. I’m running at five now and about 30 stolen bikes recovered.

I run a small shop and have to put up with thieves trying to sell me clearly stolen bikes, if i had someone come to the shop trying to sell counterfit goods Id treat them the same way – restrain them until the police can make the arrest.

but maybe I get to see all the scummy side of cycling many on here are so flippantly above.

why buy a 6 grand bike and not race it… It must be the most expensive shopping bike ever…

You crash a lot racing crits – its not ideal to throw your 6k bike down the road on a regular basis.

I struggle to understand how an adult living in a market economy would struggle to see this.

How is that not a bad thing?

How do you reckon that doesn’t have an impact on the makers of the real thing?

You can repeat that its a bad thing multiple times. Come on then genius – lets have it, why is it a bad thing?

why buy a 6 grand bike and not race it… It must be the most expensive shopping bike ever…

I’ve said this. Several times. There are lots of crashes in crit races. I don’t want to smash a £6.5k bike. Understand?

I’ve never been to the shops on it.

2. Cervelo don’t make anything that sells for less that £2000.

S2 and R3 are both £1699 retail.

Personally I would buy the blank frame and have some snazzy design of my own on it. Have a bit of individualism.

It does make me laugh that … people seem to be frothing at the keyboards

Frothing?

I’ve mentioned this once or twice or 5 FRICKING TIMES ON THIS THREAD ALREADY, but for the benefit of the hard of thinking like yourself:

I ALREADY HAVE A BRAND NEW CERVELO R5 BOUGHT FROM AN AUTHORISED DEALER!!!

No need to get in a lather…