often wonder what the ones that moan about being on poor wages on here actually do to try and change their situation if they begrudge high earners so much.

Hard up – obviously people have responded on here think they are owed a living and tax credits, where as if they worked harder they too could have earned decent money.

And you wouldn’t like to earn more cash?
The ability – will your job allow you one day to reach the higher tax threshold?
Or will you have to get promoted/change career?
Some prefer their job as it is so will have no desire to change. There’s nothing wrong with that at all.

thats your interpretation of my post and lacks the crucial “ 🙄 “
as a higher rate taxpayer who grew up on a council estate/free school meals etc i applaud anyone who gets on and increases their earning potential (if thats what they desire) mine was purely a byproduct of chasing a dream (i applaud anyone who does that too)
i dont care what people earn i know all sorts of earners but certainly don’t judge them by their pay packets.

its fun to watch those who are jealous on here get eggy though.

Some just don’t see the endless pursuit of money as the be all and end all.

The jealous/bitter/envy thing is so lazy, which is interesting from all these go-getters.

You have lost me iolo, whats your point?

You’ve costed out how much it would cost to assess household income as opposed to just doing it as part of the standard single person’s tax process? No, didn’t think so.

Yes, it is unfair. No, people earning that much don’t need it. However ISTM that whinging about somebody with higher household income than you getting a benefit you don’t isn’t all that different from people complaining that you earn too much, which you don’t seem to like either. Looking at it totally logically, it’s not the people earning 55k as a single earner who should be most upset that families with a household income of 90k are getting paid child benefit, yet you don’t generally see the lower income families who are struggling to make ends meet complaining about it, just the relatively well off upset that some other people are better off then them.

For those missing the point, I’m not at all bothered about you earning lots more than me – good on you – just not sure you should be getting upset about how much the state gives you.

So if you put a smilely on a post and say something what it means is you dont mean it?

All mods are **** 😉

Doesn’t the availability of tax credits etc just ensure that wages are kept low as its an artificial way of subsidising pay?

Its not often I agree with aracer but his post makes a lot of sense

I’m now trying to decide if I should be upset or pleased by that.

anagallis_arvensis – Member
often wonder what the ones that moan about being on poor wages on here actually do to try and change their situation if they begrudge high earners so much.

It’s a genuine question – if someone is happy with their lot and are living the life they chose, then great.

If someone trudges along through life, bemoaning their situation and being bitter towards others in a better situation, then I wonder what they have done to try and change their circumstances.

Whilst I appreciate many people may be a victim of circumstance – redundancy, family constraints, hit by the recession, whatever – there will still be plenty who could, but won’t help themselves and just choose to be bitter.

It wasn’t aimed at any one individual in particular and there’s no superiority complex in play.

Just add a 😉 and we know we dont mean any of it anyway 😉

Good grief the vitriol and self serving guff from some on here is truly disgusting. Couple of points, we’re all greedy not just the rich, the rich for whatever reason are just better at accumulating wealth.

people with higher incomes, they earn that money, someone else (the employer) thinks they earn that money and pay it. To make generalisations about whether people need that level income or deserve is no more intelligent then labelling all people on low incomes as scroungers and lazy.

50k is a nice income but not ridiculously wealthy. The higher rate threshold has come down massively, if it was at the same relative value as when it was introducex it would be over 70k.

The tax system is ridiculously organised, the whole thing about it being easier to administer on higher rate earners was rubbish, they were quite capable of assessing both incomes for tax credits. It was done purely as a populist measure so the Tories could start to erode a universal benefit sacred cow with minimum kick back. From the reaction on here it clearly worked, wake up and think for a change.

Finally should households earning more than 50k get any benefits, probably not, I don’t know what the threshold should be but its probablynot greater than that, it probably should be a lot less . A healthy society is one where the majority are able to contribute not the minority as it is now. This is as much about managing the costs of living, controlling borrowing to stop rampant hose price inflation, ot taxing basics such as fuel so ridiculously, as it is about boosting income through redistribution which just leads to an upward cycle of tax and benefits which is ultimately unsustainable.

I still think he’s more fed up with the fact his mrs isn’t bringing any money in and he’s having to shoulder it all.

😉

I’m with the OP on this one what’s fair about one person earning 50-60k getting taxed on child benefit yet 2 couples earning 2x49k not getting taxed?

Eh? Are we in a parallel world now where the new definition of ‘tax’ is ‘the government don’t give me free money’?

Yeah, because that the tax credit system is universally acknowledged to be well administered and lacking in expensive bureaucracy.

Thats right. I sometimes do wish I had sufficient moral fibre to realise that I am superior to those who pay less tax than me.

How much tax do you pay?

Dont know
How much tax do you pay?

I wish I didn’t.

I don’t

Whats the threshold for 40% income tax?

I’ll swap jobs with you gladly

Who me? Plenty of jobs for science teachers going if you want one. I like mine I’ll keep it thanks.

So if I earn 20k I can be bitter and twisted about people who pay more tax into the system?

Wow. Ok- think of those poor teachers etc.

Madness. Someone on 20k only pays tax on 10k(?) Of that. Factor in two kids, credits etc then really that bitter person is costing the likes of the OP.

On 50k how much is tax?

BTW I don’t earn (earn being the right word as he’s not given it for free) any near the OPs wage. I just hate inverted snobbery on stw sometimes.

Well it seems if you earn £50k you can be bitter and twisted about people who earn £90k and get child benefits (but still pay more into the system than you), so fill your boots.

Anagallis- sorry I meant the op

Could you try that again hora your point is lost on md

Great thread – especially equating responsible savings via pensions (the most sensible way to save) with benefit cheating…..

Anagallis- sorry I meant the op

You dissin my job!!!!

I did a university course entitled “the British tax system” many many moons ago. The detail it went into generally proved that the starting point “to be fair a tax system must be progressive and related to the ability to pay” was never respected. And that in the real world lower income earners pay a high proportion of their income in tax. Those that pay the lowest proportion of their income in tax are the wealthy who have high unearned incomes.

When I was in business in France I paid 52% of my earned income in tax and obligatory social security payments. On my unearned investment income I used perfectly legal strategies to pay almost no tax just using French investments in France. Things have changes a little but it’s still earned income that is most taxed.

When the poor spend their money they spend more of it on things that are highly taxed than the rich. They use transport to get to work which if they use a car means paying for one of the most taxed goods/services there is. They need to dress, communicate… all high VAT gods and services. Live somewhere? You pay more tax per m2 on small properties.

The whole system serves to keep the poor poor and help the rich get richer. The solution is a more progressive tax system but that is very hard to apply as the wealthy are the most mobile. There’s always some financial rogue state to welcome them.

So what can we do? Vote of course, and probably further left than you think you should. And use what little economic power you have wisely. Never visit Switzerland or buy anything Swiss for example.

I think teaching is an admirable job, I doubt I’d have the patience for it

How progressive do you want it to be? When did you adjust your tax behaviour Edukator? .

If you can’t afford children don’t have them. Having children is a choice. It annoys me that people make that choice expecting others to foot the bill.

Those that pay the lowest proportion of their income in tax are the wealthy who have high unearned incomes.

I guess that would probably include the director of a chain of retail stores that chooses to defer taking money out of the business in anticipation of future renumeration through dividends at a reduced tax rate, rather than choosing to receive a wage from the company/shops they own?

If you can’t afford children don’t have them. Having children is a choice. It annoys me that people make that choice expecting others to foot the bill.

If you can’t afford a bike to cycle to work on, don’t buy one. Buying a commuting bike is a choice. It annoys me that people make that choice expecting others to foot the bill through bike to work schemes.

Done it myself Ninfan. When I was in business there was a tax reduction on profits reinvested in the capital of the business (this benefits society in general as it makes businesses more resistant to hard times and reduces the number going bankrupt at the first minor downturn). If you closed the business within three years you had to pay the reduction to the tax man, after that it was simply the capital of the business owned by the shareholders (us) with no more tax to pay if the business was sold or closed allowing the owners to recover their capital.

Wasn’t cycle to work scheme a Labour invention?

We can only afford to have one child. If I dropped salary drastically and played the numbers I could have a second. Quid’s in!

If I’d adjusted my behaviour because of tax I wouldn’t have chosen to live in the most taxed part of a town in the most taxed country (I think) in Europe, teamhurtmore. Paying taxes is just part of being a (good) citizen. I make informed choices and wouldn’t knowingly pay more tax than necessary.

I don’t go out of my way to avoid tax either or get upset about paying it, I just try to understand the system and play within the rules. Sometimes the government wants us to do things that are in the general interest and uses the tax system to create an incentive. I’ve benefited from tax incentives to produce renewable energy and drive a less polluting car. Sometimes I ignore an incentive; in France it’s a financial disaster if you only have one child but having two or three (bingo!) is much easier. Some people have three to get all the extra benefits and earlier retirement but we just wanted one.

The Tax System – Explained With Beer
Suppose that every day, ten men go out for beer and the bill for all ten comes to £100. If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go something like this:
The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing.
The fifth would pay £1.
The sixth would pay £3.
The seventh would pay £7.
The eighth would pay £12.
The ninth would pay £18.
The tenth man (the richest) would pay £59.
So, that’s what they decided to do.
The ten men drank in the bar every day and seemed quite happy with the arrangement, until one day, the owner threw them a curve. ‘Since you are all such good customers,’ he said, ‘I’m going to reduce the cost of your daily beer by £20. ‘Drinks for the ten now cost just £80.
The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes so the first four men were unaffected. They would still drink for free. But what about the other six men – the paying customers? How could they divide the £20 windfall so that everyone would get his ‘fair share?’
They realized that £20 divided by six is £3.33. But if they subtracted that from everybody’s share, then the fifth man and the sixth man would each end up being paid to drink his beer. So, the bar owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce each man’s bill by roughly the same amount, and he proceeded to work out the amounts each should pay.
And so:
The fifth man, like the first four, now paid nothing (100% savings).
The sixth now paid £2 instead of £3 (33%savings).
The seventh now pay £5 instead of £7 (28%savings).
The eighth now paid £9 instead of £12 ( 25% savings).
The ninth now paid £14 instead of £18 ( 22% savings).
The tenth now paid £49 instead of £59 (16% savings).
Each of the six was better off than before. And the first four continued to drink for free. But once outside the restaurant, the men began to compare their savings.
‘I only got a pound out of the £20,’ declared the sixth man. He pointed to the tenth man,’ but he got £10!’ ‘Yeah, that’s right,’ exclaimed the fifth man. ‘I only saved a pound, too. It’s unfair that he got ten times more than I!’ ‘That’s true!!’ shouted the seventh man. ‘Why should he get £10 back when I got only two? The wealthy get all the breaks!’ ‘Wait a minute,’ yelled the first four men in unison. ‘We didn’t get anything at all. The system exploits the poor!’
The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up.
The next night the tenth man didn’t show up for drinks, so the nine sat down and had beers without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered something important. They didn’t have enough money between all of them for even half of the bill!
And that, boys and girls, journalists and college professors, is how our tax system works. The people who pay the highest taxes get the most benefit from a tax reduction. Tax them too much, attack them for being wealthy, and they just may not show up anymore. In fact, they might start drinking overseas where the atmosphere is somewhat friendlier.