There are a few papers out about erosion of foot vs bike wheels. Many report the same or less damage by bikes that by foot. However the latest paper I casually skimmed drew teh logical conclusion the MTBing has too broad an application to place it above or below hiking in terms of erosion. Just "riding along" has less erosion than walking but jumping, skidding e.t.c has more. Increased usage by whatever means also increases erosion obviously. Horse riding erosion is another matter.

Searching for the paper now will post link if I can find it.

Lifes to short not to.

Riding cheeky is fine if you have a sense of responsibility:
After the Boggies little midsummer Sunday jaunt up to Stoodly Pike, I was stopped several times by local walkers, who made their feelings clear in no uncertain terms.
Basically Simon, I'm sure you're a lovely chap and you have been very helpful with route advice whenever I've asked, but please don't come here, crap in our swimming pool then leave the locals to clear up your metaphorical mess.
(And as you are the very vocal figurehead of the Boggies on this public forum, I have no hesitation in referring to them as 'your group' BTW).

I'm in a mountaineering club which organises weekly walks, throughout the year.
We have many older members in their 60's and 70's, part of the first generation to enjoy the benefits of Benny Goodmans' work.
They have been out actively campaigning for access and enjoying the countryside, skiing, climbing, running & walking all their lives – mass MTBing is a very recent phenomenon to them. The selfish among us, the ones who think it fine to blast round the honeypot walking routes at high speed on a Sunday in large groups do nothing to help reassure them that we can coexist with them out on the trails.
(And if you think these ignorant idiots are a figment of their senile brains, try walking from the Ladybower pub up to Fairholmes car park on a Sunday in summer).

I'm trying to get members of our club to give MTB'ing a go, but it's not an easy process. I've organised several rides, the last around 'Hit The North' country and the next one will be a week on Sunday around some of the quieter Calderdale bridleways (e-mail in profile if anyone wishes to attend, but it will be a bimble designed to show beginners that MTB'ing can be a fun and exciting way to see more of the landscape thay know and love, rather than a tech-fest!).
Attendance is low at the moment, but getting better all the time, and attitudes are slowly but surely changing, especially as more younger MTB friendly people join.
These are the people who will be consulted on trail access. We really need them on board.

Cycling has become massively more popular over the last few years, but the majority of non cyclists I speak to are still very 'anti'.
Personally, I don't think we've reached the tipping point yet where a mass tresspass would gain the sympathy and support of the majority of the non cycling population – I don't think we have to wait 600 years for this to happen – one more good British TDF result, greater coverage in the media (a mainstream TV cycling show, even a one off would help) and another medal haul by Team GB in 2012 should swing public opinion our way far enough for a mass tresspass to work to our benefit.
If one is organised before then, I would attend, but with reservations as to whether it would cause more harm than good.

Dave's article in the mag is very thought provoking and I pretty much agree with it.
I live in Calderdale myself, it's the reason I moved here, but I don't ride with the STW massif, so probably don't know half the 'cheeky tech' in the area, and don't think I'd be able to ride it if I did. 😀
I do ride some of the many quieter local footpaths though and and having looked at the the 'Cheeky Trails' code of ethics, link. find that they pretty much coincide with my own views.
In fact, if they were written in slightly more diplomatic manner, I'd be happy printing them off and handing a copy to my fellow club members any complaining walkers I encountered, as a statement of intent.

but please don't come here, crap in our swimming pool then leave the locals to clear up your metaphorical mess.

the trouble is I will, and so will many others. You may consider it to be yours but non locals just think of it as a national resource just like any other place. We know nothing of the spats between the local people over their precious things and they mean nothing to us.

[/quote]We know nothing of the spats between the local people over their precious things and they mean nothing to us.

Simon, are you really daft enough to think that the behaviour of one group doesn't reflect on all of us?
For every person who sees you riding and thinks 'I'd love to have a pop at that', others are looking and thinking you're a bit of a knob with no sense of discretion.

And I only used Stoodley Pike and your ride as an example, because it's one I have direct experience of.
Nothing in this valley is mine, apart from temporary ownership of a small house and a very old Daewoo, but I'd like cyclists to be able to enjoy it for many years to come

Simon, are you really daft enough to think that the behaviour of one group doesn't reflect on all of us?

I'm daft enough not to believe in collective responsibility for the actions of people I don't know.

Wherever I ride, most people are friendly, some tight lipped and a few shouty. We all prefer to avoid confrontation, so locals are far more likely to moan to you, who is known to them, than some possibly abusive stranger.

erosion is irrelevant.

you should see the damage done by Sheffield council in the name of 'maintenance'…

Buzzlightyear – Member
there's been some moaning about all the additional MTBers eroding the singletrack over the years – fair enough. But this was put in perspective when 4x4ers invaded once last November the last time it rained, causing orders of magnitude more surface damage.

We know nothing of the spats between the local people over their precious things and they mean nothing to us.

Jesus. Brant was right.

Wherever I ride, most people are friendly, some tight lipped and a few shouty. We all prefer to avoid confrontation, so locals are far more likely to moan to you, who is known to them, than some possibly abusive stranger.

The way I read that is that you appreciate that your actions are likely to bring bad feeling which will be vented on approachable locals. Bit selfish no?

Quiet descreet (ab)use of footpaths by locals who know the area well enough to know where confrontation is likely and where is truly appropriate for bike use is one thing, but highly visible large groups who don't know the area as well and are from outside of the area so more likely to ride even if the conditions are not suitable for sustainable riding to make their journey worthwhile is a very different matter.

I've got a few local footpaths and in some cases non rights of way that I ride but as I know and drink with the land owners I'm more likely to be given a half dozen eggs than a clip around the ear when I go that way. I'm not obvious about it as I would hate for my actions to encourage others and abuse the current non spoken arrangement.

The way I read that is that you appreciate that your actions are likely to bring bad feeling which will be vented on approachable locals. Bit selfish no?

I have no idea what the likelihood is between 0 and 100%. I suppose there's a balance between my selfishness in occasionally visiting and their selfishness in wanting to keep it all for themselves 🙂

That is a nonsense sentence – care to try again?

edit – now edited. a bit better…..

Selfishness and the use of FPs could become linked issues if not careful. It could be regarded as selfish if you ride with inpunety with no regard to other user types or selfish if you go crap on someone elses (other riders) backyard and leave them to deal with the fall out. Discression, courtesy, diplomacy and tolerance are the order of the day with all things cheeky.

That is a nonsense sentence – care to try again?

it seems to say what I meant…

Discression, courtesy, diplomacy

had you ever met me you would realise that these characteristics are absent from my personality

simon isn't suggesting he rides "with impunity, with no regard to other user types"

for example, when i ride footpaths, i keep my speed down, and keep an eye out for walkers, for whom i will stop, get out of the way, wait, say hello, pat their dog, help with gates, etc…

Simon's probably got the same M/O

my tuppence worth:
When I go for a walk I do it to enjoy the peace and quiet of the countryside. When bikers are considerate and come past me slowly and shout a friendly warning then all is ok. When they rag past in a huge group with no greeting or thanks then I resent it.
This is something we, as mountain bikers, need to think about. As mentioned above, empathy with other users of the countryside. Who, surely, are on our side more than the hordes who prefer to drive from house to work, to shopping centre?
I'm often surprised when I ride slowly along behind walkers and shout a friendly 'excuse me' how often they jump aside, looking rather surprised. I know as a walker you often can't hear bikes coming and when they do, it can be a bit of a surprise.
So, while access laws might be a bit of an @rse, until we as mountain bikers can show we can all ride responsibly and with thought for the impact of our behaviour, then I don't think anyone will have sympathy for a 'we want to ride everywhere' campaign and cheeky riding gives them ammunition rather than bringing them onside.
On that basis I wish the CTC would stop campaigning for access to coastal paths – surely walkers can go somewhere for a bimble in peace and quiet? Equally the state Surrey Hills gets in from over use and use after heavy rain does us no favours IMO.
CTC and all the campaigners IMO need to be focussing on persuading riders to think more about our responsibilities, not our rights…

simon is suggesting he rides "with impunity, with no regard to other user types"

no I never, someone else said it …

sorry Simon, typo – i missed the "n't" – my brain is too fast for my fingers…

(never underestimate my ability to cock something up)

I'm more than happy to share the gift of trails with people who appreciate their value. Please don't visit my area Barnes.

The way I read that is that you appreciate that your actions are likely to bring bad feeling which will be vented on approachable locals.

there is of course a simple way to avoid this:
a) never talk to the locals (they probably smell funny anyway)
b) if accosted, pretend to be French. To add authenticity, wear a stripey shirt and carry some onions. Repeat after me in your best Inspector Clouseau accent "There eez a boem in ma rrrr-oem" etc

Please don't visit my area Barnes.

I don't know where it is.

Then you didn't read my posts [which doesn't surprise me]

until we as mountain bikers can show we can all ride responsibly

but any lummox can jump on a mountain bike and go for a ride as they see fit, without magically absorbing the whole (possibly delusional) culture. And others, god help them, may consider that asserting their common law rights is the best way to uphold them, regardless of appeasing chatter elsewhere

Then you didn't read my posts

I probably did but ignored the funny name above. I respond to the argument, not the personality.

[edit] I trawled through and found "We had this situation on the Mendip recently". I missed it due to the new page. I don't even know where that is.

You don't argue, or even listen/read. You just transmit.

And name-calling is childish. But I see you edited that bit out [thank you].

You don't argue, or even listen/read. You just transmit.

actually I read it all (when I have time), but so far I haven't found the counterarguments convincing. What I don't do is speculate on the mental states of others.

And name-calling is childish. But I see you edited that bit out [thank you].

which is why I never do that either, except to people I know personally. Which bit did I edit ?

There are a few new cyclepaths that have been built close to where I live. Guess what, there full of people walking about! Standing about chatting and giving me funny looks when I ride slowly past at 2 mph.
I say ride where you want within reason, give way to people on foot and horses and smile a lot

In 16 years of mild MTBing I have only been upbraded about where I was riding twice that I remember. Both times I was on a bridleway! The 1st was the BW along the East side of Ullswater at the start of the classic lakes Loop week tour. I had the map to show the nay syares that we were allowed there. The second time was whilst doing a Trailquest on Cannock Chase. Me and my mate were stopped on a BW having a snack having just bagged a control and a 50-something dog walker laid in to us for being where we were. We were polite and pointed out that we were on a bridleway and doing an event that had the support of the various bodies that control the Chase. He wasn't to be persuaded though. He'dgot a right to walk wherever he wanted in his dogs toilet and no one else had. Me and my mate were also responsible for destroying footpaths, pulling down signs that prevented access to bikes to certain areas and running down the hundreds of walkers who are killed every year on the Chase by MTBs. TBH we then made a bit of a balls up of our argument cos when we started off again we mistook a footpath for the BW and caught up Mr Mail and so we justified his whole world view.

TBH I've had as much trouble whilst out walking as cycling with people who don't like the great unwashed having access to the wider world.

Ride where ever but ride with respect and things should be ok. I really doubt that we will ever get things changed in a big way. In someways the advent of the trail centre is a good thing. I imagine that they have taken quite a large load off the natural trails which I hope will keep the access agro for cyclists to a minimum.

If you haven't yet have a look at http://www.cheekytrails.co.uk as created by Dave A. I think that the ethics that Dave has put on there are to be applauded and applied by all who use Cheeky Trails.

Personally I wouldn't go for a mass trespass ride, get the location / weather wrong and you'll give the anti bikers all the ammo they need to say we shouldnt have any more rights of access. The Big Push for Access would be a better idea.

So anyway… to get back on topic (I knew there was a reason I never joined the boggies), if I want to show my support for greater access to trails, and try and improve the current situation, what do I do ? Do I join CTC, IMBA, what ? Getting involved in these sort of issues seems very complex, and it's all a bit new to me.

How do I help ?

Getting involved in these sort of issues seems very complex

intentionally so, so you exhaust yourself thinking you're doing something, when in fact you're just taking it from the Man 🙁

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All that means is that most of STW'ers do not actually ride their bikes while Ramblers are out rambling 😉

(I knew there was a reason I never joined the boggies)

you shouldn't confuse me (or my opinions) with the club, or lose sight of the fact that the club continues to thrive because it provides such excellent fun to its members :o)

All that means is that most of STW'ers do not actually ride their bikes while Ramblers are out rambling

merely conjecture. We might be hyperactive.

For what it's worth I thought Dave's article was one of the most thoughtful things I've read in some time and chimes almost exactly with my own feelings.

Where it's sensible to ride has very little in common with where it's legal to ride. I ride off piste quite a bit, and I also self-censor quite a lot. I'm a grown up.

As a little tribute to Dave I went out and did a bit of light pruning last night, trimming some overgrown paths back to useable. It wasn't much, but it was time I could have better spent actually riding. And it'll be far more use to the majority of people on foot than the occasional bike.

and I also self-censor quite a lot. I'm a grown up

so there can be no adult reasons for not self-censoring ?

That reminds me Stever, I need to get out this weekend with the shears and do a bit of 'gardening'.

SFB – I really do believe very strongly that your actions are doing harm. I am not the only one. It might be reasonable to have some consideration for others. Taking large groups out on footpaths on weekend days will antagonise the locals and alienate them. The behavour of groups like the ones you lead can undo a lot of work to build bridges and develop goodwill

Your actions would on occasion clearly breach the access code in Scotland.

SFB – I really do believe very strongly that your actions are doing harm. I am not the only one. It might be reasonable to have some consideration for others

but I'm actually there and I don't. Get over it. For that matter, most of the rides I lead only have a dozen riders or less. While some elect to choose the softly-softly endlessly-consultative route, I'm going for in-your-face assertion of our right to go around in our own country. Only time will tell which is more effective, but no right was ever conceded through timid acquiescence

Your actions would on occasion clearly breach the access code in Scotland.

except I never go to Scotland

Go for it Davey, the hollies are getting rather scratchy in the local woods.
(I do em from time to time)

Having seen the way some riders are three abreast and racon some bridleways whilst approaching walkers, I reckon that the chance of getting to use footpaths is dead in the water. I see a large number of riders who seem to treat bridleways as just an extension of trail centres, rather than teh two being entirely different.

I can't see this situation ecer being resolved, the "adrenaline RAD" element of MTBing has got so large that and out there that I'm guessing that's what MTBers are associeated with in a negatice concept when trail usage is mentioned.

The above behaviour is as unacceptable as is my early morning trail poaching, let's get that straight, my apologetic manor and politeness to go a very long way to aswaging the issue.

I suspect impeccable trail manners to other users allow an awful lot of cheeky trails to be used with virtually no conflict, and vice versa.

I'm happy with how it is manners and politeness seem to work a treat for me.