Viewing 40 posts - 1 through 40 (of 86 total)
  • Ched Evans conviction quashed
  • dannybgoode
    Full Member

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-36099522

    Now what for the chap. Can’t see him playing again.

    Dont quite know what to make of the whole case etc…

    Stoner
    Free Member

    (whatever anyone makes of the case, don’t forget it’s back sub judice again)

    Junkyard
    Free Member

    Stoner is correct and there is new evidence

    Best to let justice do its thing rather than let the internet do its thing.

    There are no winners here that I can see

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    jimdubleyou
    Full Member

    Dont quite know what to make of the whole case etc…

    That will be up to the jury on the retrial.

    Be interesting to see what happens when the new evidence is heard in court.

    jambalaya
    Free Member

    Re-trial. I read today that the victim never made a claim of rape.

    @danny if he’s acquitted at the retrial he will be entitled to compensation for loss of earnings, thats going to be quite a big bill for the tax payer.

    outofbreath
    Free Member

    I read today that the victim never made a claim of rape.

    For me that’s the clincher. Where was the evidence.

    The jury must have assumed that bloke 1 didn’t rape her and bloke 2 did based on their own gut feeling.

    How can that be beyond reasonable doubt?

    jambalaya
    Free Member

    @outof .. I believe the key thing at the original trial was that the jury found she had been too drunk to have possibly consented to having sex with Evans but she had been awake/sober enough to have consented to the first guy who was acquitted. I think there was phone video too.

    As JY says there are no winners here

    tiggs121
    Free Member

    If the victim never made a claim of rape…what did she go to the police about?

    If Evans has had sex with her without her express consent then it is rape…drunk or not.

    outofbreath
    Free Member

    If the victim never made a claim of rape…what did she go to the police about?

    Lost handbag.

    wrecker
    Free Member

    Express consent? What is express consent?

    P-Jay
    Free Member

    If Evans has had sex with her without her express consent then it is rape…drunk or not.

    I really struggle to understand the rules in this regards as I have never, not once, in 20+ years of having sex, ever had a partner “express consent”, but I’m no rapist.

    outofbreath
    Free Member

    Express consent? What is express consent?

    ..and how do we know beyond reasonable doubt that there was no ‘express’ consent.

    teamhurtmore
    Free Member

    Express consent? What is express consent?

    “Forget 4play, just get on with it….” ?

    jambalaya
    Free Member

    This is a struggle / complexity with the law. If you (as have most of us I am sure) gone to bed when both are quite drunk you could be found guilty. I heard recently students at some American Universities are doing advised to get explicit consent for sex every time even with a repeat partner.

    wrecker
    Free Member

    Again, what is it? how you you get it? and how you record that you have done so?
    Bloody glad I’m married, and to someone who is at least moderately enthusiastic about intercourse! 😉

    matt_outandabout
    Full Member

    ..and how do we know beyond reasonable doubt that there was no ‘express’ consent.

    RamseyNeil
    Free Member

    ..and how do we know beyond reasonable doubt that there was no ‘express’ consent.

    Surely it’s for the prosecution to prove not the defence .

    RamseyNeil
    Free Member

    ..and how do we know beyond reasonable doubt that there was no ‘express’ consent.

    Surely it’s for the prosecution to prove not the defence .

    jimdubleyou
    Full Member

    ..and how do we know beyond reasonable doubt that there was no ‘express’ consent.

    Surely it’s for the prosecution to prove not the defence .

    Prosecution don’t have to prove it beyond reasonable doubt, they just have to convince the jury. Which is a subtly different proposition.

    gonefishin
    Free Member

    Again, what is it?

    Not sure on the precise definition but I’d imagine it is someone saying “Yes” as opposed to someone “not saying No”.

    I’d not have thought it a particularly difficult thing to understand.

    konabunny
    Free Member

    Prosecution don’t have to prove it beyond reasonable doubt, they just have to convince the jury. Which is a subtly different proposition.

    Bees are on the what now?

    squirrelking
    Free Member

    Jesus, not this again.

    Look up “consent tea analogy”, I would quote it myself but my internet is being rubbish. It’s not that hard.

    jimdubleyou
    Full Member

    Look up “consent tea analogy”, I would quote it myself but my internet is being rubbish. It’s not that hard.

    There you go…

    [video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQbei5JGiT8[/video]

    wrecker
    Free Member

    Not sure on the precise definition but I’d imagine it is someone saying “Yes” as opposed to someone “not saying No”.

    I’d not have thought it a particularly difficult thing to understand.
    Well it is, quite clearly. The famous “tea consent” video doesn’t spell it out for a start.

    outofbreath
    Free Member

    Not sure on the precise definition but I’d imagine it is someone saying “Yes” as opposed to someone “not saying No”. I’d not have thought it a particularly difficult thing to understand.

    Assuming your guess is correct then the bit I don’t understand about it is that by that definition every non-virgin male and female is a rapist since couples rarely if ever precede lovemaking with verbal consent.

    dannybgoode
    Full Member

    Not sure on the precise definition but I’d imagine it is someone saying “Yes” as opposed to someone “not saying No”. I’d not have thought it a particularly difficult thing to understand.

    Assuming your guess is correct then the bit I don’t understand about it is that by that definition every non-virgin male and female is a rapist since couples rarely if ever precede lovemaking with verbal consent

    And here in lies the tricky bit. What is consent really. Does the law mean you have to get a firm, verbal ‘yes’ everytime.

    Only when trying to defend a rape allegation it would seem.

    Will Mrs Danny’s ‘oh go on then if you must’ suffice for example?

    What about non-verbal consent?

    Its all rather murky imo. Luckily I’m married and don’t have to worry a) about having sex in the first place and b) what might or might not happen following a drunken taxi ride home from a nightclub will a lady (other than Mr Danny of course but then refer to point a).

    outofbreath
    Free Member

    And here in lies the tricky bit. What is consent really. Does the law mean you have to get a firm, verbal ‘yes’ everytime.

    …agree but in this case I’m not sure that’s significant since all three of them were wasted so it’s very hard to say for sure that a firm verbal ‘yes’ wasn’t said.

    Although I might be wrong about that, maybe Evans and the other guy are both saying they remember clearly there was no yes.

    epicsteve
    Free Member

    …agree but in this case I’m not sure that’s significant since all three of them were wasted so it’s very hard to say for sure that a firm verbal ‘yes’ wasn’t said.

    My understanding is that the key question isn’t whether the girl said yes, but instead whether she was in a fit state to be able to give consent and therefore whether Evans should have realised she was too drunk to give consent i.e. even if she said yes he should have treated it as a no.

    MoreCashThanDash
    Full Member

    I’ve never followed the case in great detail, the evidence went to a jury who convicted him and now fresh evidence has come to light saying it needs to be retried.

    I’ve never really understood why, based on what was originally being stated were the facts, he felt that he was innocent or why his other half and her family were supporting him. Maybe a retrial with new facts will get it clarified. If he broke the law, he broke the law.

    I just hope my kids grow up with enough sense to make sure they know whether everyone has given consent or not.

    jambalaya
    Free Member

    What @epic says with the added complexity that the court decided she had consented with the first guy.

    It’s horrible mess and certainly very low quality behaviour from Evans and the the others.

    epicsteve
    Free Member

    It’s horrible mess and certainly very low quality behaviour from Evans and the the others.

    He may or may not be guilty of rape, but he’s definitely guilty of being a scumbag.

    outofbreath
    Free Member

    My understanding is that the key question isn’t whether the girl said yes, but instead whether she was in a fit state to be able to give consent and therefore whether Evans should have realised she was too drunk to give consent i.e. even if she said yes he should have treated it as a no.

    So express consent has an additional clause that requires an assessment of the other persons ability to “expressly consent”…

    Also raises the question of why didn’t the girl also get done for rape since I assume Evans was wasted too.

    outofbreath
    Free Member

    He may or may not be guilty of rape, but he’s definitely guilty of being a scumbag.

    This IMHO.

    verses
    Full Member

    My understanding is that the key question isn’t whether the girl said yes, but instead whether she was in a fit state to be able to give consent and therefore whether Evans should have realised she was too drunk to give consent i.e. even if she said yes he should have treated it as a no.

    This is going to sound like I’m being awkward, but I’m not meaning to be…

    What if he’s not in a fit state to judge whether she’s in a fit state or not?

    epicsteve
    Free Member

    So express consent has an additional clause that requires an assessment of the other persons ability to “expressly consent”…

    Correct. In the Evans case I don’t think it’s even particularly disputed whether she said yes or not (she can’t remember and Evans and the other guy says she did).

    epicsteve
    Free Member

    What if he’s not in a fit state to judge whether she’s in a fit state or not?

    Maybe it’s viewed that if the male is in a fit state to perform he’s in a fit state to tell the difference?

    dannybgoode
    Full Member

    So slip the argument round – lad goes to a police station and says I went back to girls houise last night. We were both wankered and I woke up with her bumping and grinding on top of me.

    What would the police response be do we think.

    Its a massively difficult area and I think very hard to have an open mature debate as people start saying victims are being balmed etc.

    MoreCashThanDash
    Full Member

    I don’t think legally a woman can rape a bloke? I may be wrong.

    lunge
    Full Member

    Maybe it’s viewed that if the male is in a fit state to perform he’s in a fit state to tell the difference?

    I have a mate who prides himself that he can always perform, he may be unable to stand up or hold a conversation but it’s safe to say brewer droop does not affect him. His reputation is well known and I can think of a couple of occasions that young ladies have wanted see if this is true.

    Debatabley, he would have been raped on a few of these occasions, though I suspect he didn’t think that way.

    dannybgoode
    Full Member

    I don’t think legally a woman can rape a bloke? I may be wrong

    I sincerely hope that is not true…

Viewing 40 posts - 1 through 40 (of 86 total)

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