I’m 14st (add riding kit to that) and am faffing around trying to get a CCDB “just-right” on my Five.

I’ve tried 650lb and 550lb springs.

550 felt better and achieved that “is my back tyre flat?” feeling that’s often described BUT it bottoms out a little too frequently on relatively small stuff (maybe 3 foot drop to flat)

Yes, I could notch-up the HSC to stop it but I’d like to know about any practical experience of this vs a bigger spring.

The 650 spring needs a LOT of HSR to tame it (it did buckeroo me off during first set-up run with recommended starting settings) and it feels like riding a hardtail at times.

Sag can be accomodated with more/less preload on either, and yes I could always try a 600 lb spring but before I do…

The exam question is : Pros & cons of more HSC vs bigger spring on CCDB, discuss…

Ta

Which one gets the correct sag?

Yes, I could notch-up the HSC to stop it but I’d like to know about any practical experience of this vs a bigger spring.

Best advice with a CCDB was you need patience. Get out and try it 1 click at a time. Reminds me of the old hifi amps with all the level adjusters that you could play with (then set to a preset setting)

legend, I can get correct sag with either by varying the pre-load.

The question is really one of… more HSC or higher spring rate and the pros and cons of each.

Get the sag without, or with very little preload. If you use too much you wind up the spring, thereby reducing its effective length.

Compression varys the rate at which the spring can be compressed – fast of slow, not the force required to do it.

If you feel its flat, thats not the spring, thats the rebound / compression, so adjust it till it feels right for you. Might not be right for the trail though, depends on what your used to, how you ride and what you expect.

So, get the correct sag / spring for your weight first.
Then set the rebound, fast rebound first.

That will stop it feeling like a bucking broncho.

Then set the compression.

You do need to understand what each does first, otherwise your twiddling nobs in the dark basically. So read up on it, Loco / TF and Mojo websites have lots of usefull info to explain it.

Then find one trail and ride it repeatedly and take your time. I took several months to get the rebound, then several more to get the compression right.

Thanks for the response Trimix. I’m confident that I do understand the function/principle of the adjustment/variables, so I’d agree with 90% of what you’ve posted. The only bit I’d like to understand more about is this:

Get the sag without, or with very little preload.

Other than if using so much that it became coilbound, I can’t see why this would be the case. I’m not arguing, just wanting to understand why you say this.
As I see it, there are two ways to control bottoming out (high force, high shaft speed);
1. the weight of the spring (increasing the force)
2. HSC (limitting the rate of compression)

Can you articulate why one might be preferable to the other?

Ecky-thump:

If you use loads of compression damping to stop your shock bottoming out, then it is likely that your shock will NEVER bottom-out. i.e., you won’t get full travel from your suspension.

If you use the correct spring rate with a moderate amount of damping, then you should bottom-out in a controlled manner every now and again.

Correct spring-rate should always be the first step in setting up suspension.

Oh, and regarding pre-load – if you have to use a lot of pre-load, then you’re not using the right spring rate. Pre-load effectively means that part of your weight (equal to the pre-load force) does not move your suspension at all when loaded statically. I.e., if you weigh 80kg, but put 20kgf of preload on the spring, then the spring only sees 60kg of your weight. But when you hit a bump hard and generate 2g of acceleration, you’re hitting the suspension with 160kgf, which will over-power the spring which is effectively rated for a 60kg rider and would expect to see 120kgf on such a hit.

Not explaining that as well as I would like, will come back to it if I have time!

stevomcd,
Very clear and concise.Thanks. No revision required.
I take your point about too much HSC = not getting full travel.
Even with the 650lb spring I’m still moving the bump-stop to the end of the shaft in the course of a regular ride, so I think I’ll focus on that spring with minimal preload and tweak from there.

Sounds like the right plan. I ride an Alpine 160 with a CCDB BTW, but I’ve just checked the spring rate and I’m on a 450 for a 90kg rider, so I guess the stroke and compression ratios are too different for any comparison to be meaningful!

If the calculation for any comparison is shock weight / leverage ratio (I’m just assuming there) then your 450 spring, 2.8″ stroke, 160mm travel gives an almost identical factor to my 550 spring, 2″ stroke, 140 travel.
Which makes me think I should be able to make the 550lb work for me (gone full circle in my thinking now) 😐

clicky

this will take you to the tuning guide which i find very useful.

you should be able to find sag at around 3 turns preload (optimum) and no more than 6 turns (and no less than 1 turn)

edit: have you looked at base tunes in the lounge at all..?

Alpine 160 is only 2.5″ shock stroke (spring has 2.8″ movement before becoming coil-bound), don’t know what that does to your calcs!

Funnily enough, the 450lb spring on my first Alpine felt far too stiff (with a Fox DHX shock), but it feels right on my new bike (with CCDB).

My advice for the CCDB is let the shock (i.e the damping) do the work and not the spring. This for me is where the CCDB shines. That “flat tyre feeling” with the 550 lb spring sounds right. The CCDB does perform better deeper in it’s travel. I’m about 13st with kit and I use a 500lb spring (2 to 2.5 turns pre-load). Are you actually feeling the bottoming out or just noticing by the rubber bumper? What settings are you using?

carlphilips, I’d read through the tuning guide before I started. Haven’t seen the “lounge” though, will have a quick look for that later.

mojo5pro, the “flat tyre” bit was what I’d understood to be “about right” too. I was feeling the bottom out on the 550 when dropping some local flights of steps, maybe 3′-ish drops.
Base setting for Five I took from a previous thread where they were attributed to cc:

These are the recommended settings for the ccdb on the five from cane creeks five test rider sent through from Malcolm at cc.
Turn Adjusters clockwise

HSR – 1.0-1.5 turns in from all out
LSR – 8-12 clicks from all out
HSC – 1.5-2.0 turns in from all out
LSC – 10-15 clicks in from all out

Also get your sag sorted out, this also from malcolm at cc-

We like a 30-35% sag range. This would be measured with your riding gear on. Take the bottom out bumper pry it out of the lower spring retainer and move it up the piston shaft, till it touches the shock body. Now take all pre load out of the spring, then turn the pre load spring collar clockwise till it touches the spring. Once it touches the spring give it another ¼ turn clockwise. Get on the bike I like to rest the handlebars against a wall to balance myself and get in a riding position.
Get off the bike and look how far the bottom out bumper has moved down the piston shaft. On your shock length you are looking for 15mm to 18mm of gap between the top of the bottom out bumper and the shock body. This will be a 30-35% sag range. For less sag add a turn of pre load a 360 degree turn: 6 turns would be max.

I found that amount of HSR to have way too little effect though (that’s what dismounted me on the first run) so I’ve since put a further half turn on and that seems OK.

Think I’m going to start by splitting the difference and buying a 600lb spring and tweaking from there.

I feel the five needs a lot of rebound damping. TFTUNED recommended 20 clicks LSR and 4 clicks HSR for my five. I also tried the CC recommendations and after lots of testing I went pretty close to TF tunes settings (settled on 3.75 for HSR). The back-end definatley feels more controlled with the higher rebound damping

no clicks on the high speed adjustment, so is that full turns?

Yep, sorry full turns on the HSR
I have 2 turns HSC, 3.75 HSR, 20 clicks LSR and 9 LSC.