On bedzeds CHP – CHP does make sense in many places.

It does make sense at BedZed – but what happens when everyone wants to use biomass in cities? We cannot grow enough trees / fuel to power it all….

Look into burning waste for CHP in localised district energy and heat systems, as they do in most of the continent.

the figures for the bedZED car sharing club do look pretty dismal. i’ve not looked deeply into bedZED yet though… will look at that Brookes-Kahzoom effect, thanks.

Brookes-Kahzoom = low energy bill cos of a low energy house, so you then book a flight to Spain with the cash you saved.

All this technical jiggery pokery falls down when people inhabit houses and office and schools etc.

but isn’t that one of the good things about CHP, you can use the best fuel for you’re development.

as for the bickering on the internet thing, well, i didn;t see it as that! i’m trying to write a 7000 word essay on the subject. i’ve come in to it knowing relatively little. i’m trying to take on what people have said, as its giving me some new ideas of where to look and what to look for. i also find it kinda interesting too.
i’ve got quite a bit of the info i’m looking at, but i’m still not sure on the answer to my original question – whether the govt still want 2016 to happen, by law, nationally. perhaps i’m just missing something…

right, off to find my advisor…

thanks for the stuff guys. it is interesting, and it is helping…

i’ve got quite a bit of the info i’m looking at, but i’m still not sure on the answer to my original question – whether the govt still want 2016 to happen, by law, nationally. perhaps i’m just missing something…

Problem is we signed up to loads of internationa/ and european agendas to reduce carbon.
We also have a huge looming and pressing energy crisis (we use too much and cannot generate enough, and the production is dropping and the use is rising).
Factor in massive problems of resource depletion and waste, which are only getting worse and more pressing.
So, it would be great from the Govts. point of view to stop, but the world and agenda’s set say we cannot. We will not make ‘carbon zero’ in 2016, but by then we will have sorted out the industry confusion and arguing over what does work and what strategy we will use to get towards a balance of carbon / energy and resources.

thats my thoughts on it, i guess. if the 2016 target was hit, i’d be very surprised…
i’m guessing that you’re oppinion on this is that it would be great if we could, but we can’t right now. we’ll get there in the medium term, but we’ll not make the 2016 target. but that target is giving the imputus (sp) to get moving on it, and to start developing techniques and technologies to get there.
is that about right? or am i a bit off?

i also get the impression this is something you’re involved in?
🙂

About right – but I also think we may as well accept we aint gonna make it, and break it down into smaller steps with reasonable measures along the way.

Sorry to join late, but as my email address will almost confirm I’m one of the senior design guys for two of the electrical distribution licence areas (the “grid” in this conversation; as opposed to the National Grid which I doubt any houses are directly connected to) and I have had a good read with interest.
As I see it more efficient homes are a very good idea – essential even – but there are a few niggles as it stands.
The off grid bit is one – well I would say that, ‘cos if you don’t want a grid I’m out of a job. I’m “off-grid” for gas and sewage and trust me there are really good reasons to be “on-grid” if you possible can be.
In electrical terms the reliability of the grid (and therefore your ability to read this rubbish on STW) is vastly superior to any given generator – that said the best way to improve your reliability is to have both the wires to your house / site and a local running generator (not a standby generator for preference; they’re good at standing by not always so good at generating unless you maintain the living daylights out of them).
So we are asking people to buy a home with an energy system that (at present at least) is possibly more expensive and probably less reliable – hard sell that one.
Conversely better insulation / not wasting what you bring into the home wins all round.
There sem to be a few others on here who are thinking about these things sensibly and I would love to talk more with them if they fancy it (even if you think my second hand forks are too expensive Matt_O&A).
And if you want to see me in panto, then I should be down in London talking about how to connection distributed generation.
And finally, anyone interested in a crazy idea to use a ground source heat pump / solar panel set as an economiser for either a microCHP or conventional hot water system.

Iain

Conversely better insulation / not wasting what you bring into the home wins all round.

Nail. Head.

There sem to be a few others on here who are thinking about these things sensibly and I would love to talk more with them if they fancy it (even if you think my second hand forks are too expensive Matt_O&A).

*is confused with that statement*

Matt –

Nail. Head.

– you are right but so many people miss the simple boring solutions in favour of that which is sexy or of the moment. I am a very boring believer in trailing edge technology – ie if the technology’s worked for 50 years it’ll probably do so for another 50. Conversely leading edge thinking about how to apply that technology is normally a good thing.

There sem to be a few others on here who are thinking about these things sensibly and I would love to talk more with them if they fancy it (even if you think my second hand forks are too expensive Matt_O&A).

It was said with a big grin (that probably doesn’t come across too well on a web forum). I was thinking about some the comments that you made, amongst others, when I suggested that others on here are actually thinking about these things (trust me, I meet many bright intelligent people who seem incapable of thought) – but I think the last time we exchanged posts (by email I think) was when I was considering offloading some forks and I think my idea of a reasonable price didn’t tie up with yours – nowt wrong with that of course.

Now then – what’s wrong with that economiser idea?

Iain

ahhhh…

Ok Iain, a thought for you I am working on…

What if the energy companies were forced to sell energy at a flat rate of £X per m2 per year.

Then its the company whose customers use energy most efficiently who make most profit. ESCo’s then rush round installing insulation, airtightness, bonus’s towards anyone who manages to reduce energy consumption in anyway possible. They then want to build local CHP units, district heating etc etc. All of a sudden efficiency = profit. This also means that ROC’s etc would pay back as a greater % of cost/profit, so therefore increasing the move towards low carbon energy production.

The same ESCo’s would not bother with nuclear (too expensive, and we can economise more than generate). They would start thinking local and regional, while still using the grid to do what it does best – shuffle energy round in moments of ‘need’.

In principle – yes, but, and it’s a big but, I don’t think you could actually impose a flat rate of £X per m2 per year without reintroducing pretty strict regulation to the energy supply sector. However let’s assume you can and keep going.

Next the disclaimer – I work for a DNO. We have no UK generation and we do not buy or sell electricity in the UK. We simple provide a transportation service for the ESCo. If you live in the Peoples Republic of South Yorkshire (when did that amalgamate – last time I looked Rotherham, Doncaster and Sheffield were all seperate republics) then you probably have wires that I am responsible for running up to your house – but you don’t buy electricity from me, nor do you directly pay me for that service (though we do make up around £65 per annum of your bill). Sorry if that was egg sucking 101 but to quote Michael Caine – not a lot of people know that.

Now the interesting bit – In practice I think you would have to dismantle 20 years of privatisation, disaggregation and deregulation. Now some like privatisation etc some like other models, but ignoring politics for a moment, the model we have is (stunningly) the model we have and it will be an absolute git to change it even if the country could afford to do so at the moment. So consider the current model. As a customer of, say Scottish Power, I have the absolute right to change supplier to say, Scottish and Southern. So why would SP spend a load of money on my house only to see me poached by S&S who have worked out it is cheaper to buy efficient customers than to pay for upgrades. Ok you say, longer contracts – works for mobile phones why not electric. Problem. You still have the right to sell on your house and the new owner would not be tied to SP – not quite the same as mobiles.
So in reality the big six (who Ofgem keep informing us are NOT a cartel – so what, they might as well be) would simply chase customers who already have nicely insulated homes (and if it’s per square metre, nice low desnsity housing too) thereby hitting those already hard squeezed low income, old, high density areas – areas of fuel poverty. Guys like me would of course be fine – but then I’d probably be fine under most scenarios short of destroying the planet – which some believe may be more likely than most of us like to think.
If you can think of a way of running your idea based on the DNO (the regulated bit of the market) then you may be on to a winner. But like I said we don’t buy or sell energy.
From your previous posts your working in sustainable housing (ish) somewhere near Sheffield if I recall. I’m based at Castleford and I look after the electrical designers who cover north Lincolnshire to the Scottish border. This kind of thing is going to change our business and trying to be enlightened about it we want to understand it and to support it where we can. Drop me a note if you would be interested in talking to us (promise not to charge or to try to sell anything). If I would certainly be interested in talking to sustainable developers – after all assuming they still want their “grid” connection every last microgenerator in Yorkshire will connect to us in some manner or other.

My email is in my profile.

Iain

thanks for continuing this guys, its pretty interesting.

‘Conversely better insulation / not wasting what you bring into the home wins all round.’
tick.

FWIW i spoke to my advisor about my essay, and explained that there was some confusion over the exact details of the policy/decision/whatever. she has suggested i slightly change tack, and look at whether a carbon zero house is ‘sustainable’.
to this effect i’m going to have to review the different materials and technologies, as well as social aspects of carbon zero houses, and comment on whether this ties in with ‘sustainable development’. and, if you’re wondering, imo it doesn’t.

really appreciate all this stuff, i’m still glong to use it, and read the links. so thanks v much. and please do continue…
🙂

Glad you’re still glong 8)
See what you think of this: greenshop building, they said they were aiming for “..totally sustainable, zero carbon…”

Just remember to reference it properly if it’s for a masters.

And remember STW does not count as a refereed scientific journal (the moderators will ban me for that I’m sure)

Offer to discuss further open to all – though I would ask that a) there’s a genuine business or academic interest and b) you are patient if you do start a conversation – it’s reg review year and my time can get a little short.

Am I worth talking to? Well maybe. I’ve had the opportunity to discuss energy matters with the shadow secretary and with members of the select committee – though Milliband has not crossed my path as of yet. I very occasionally speak at conferences on the subject – more often I write the material for my MD. So maybe. That said I am very aware that I know a lot in a very narrow area. So maybe not. End of trumpet blowing.

aye, still plodding on 🙁 got about 4000 words to write by thurs, in theory… but as its a draft, it doesn’t have to be complete.

aye, this stuff’ll not be referenced 😉 but its good to have a general feel of oppinion outside of academic literature on it.
really appreciate all the links… 🙂

incidentally I priced up wind power a year or so ago and you had to install over 20kW peak in order to break even in an average situation with the noraml de-ratings – probably changed now

igm – micro wind is a waste of time and money (and my new employer has a great case study of that…)

I am no longer going to be in sustainable building – back to the outdoors and trying to do a load of this stuff for real, on old buildings….

Matt – again agreed (this could get boring). I think that was probably what I was trying to say in general terms. There will be the odd specific instance (as with many things) where in makes sense.

Who’s the new employer then? Anyone I’ll know?

Probably not – totally unrelated – Ardeonaig Outdoor Centre!

Next time we move we’re going to buy a smaller house. Can’t remember the figures but I beleive the average house size is double or treble the size it was before the war. All that space is an unafordable/unecessary luxury in itself, but unfortunatley for the last couple of decades people seem to have been on a path of adding more space = adding value to their houses.

Bin there i think – a long long time ago. May be 20 years. Don’t think it was in South Yorks though.

Its not, its on Loch Tay…..

The kind of place I spent a lot of time as a kid… ahh memories

matt_outandabou – thanks for correction on mandatory threshold for code. Didn’t know about HA requirements for code levels.
Jonny