Viewing 35 posts - 1 through 35 (of 35 total)
  • Carbon wheel users, a question…..
  • mactheknife
    Full Member

    I have a bit if money coming my way and have always fancied a set of top carbon wheels. More than likely a set from Sixth element. Currently I am running a set of flows on my Turner RFX. My main gripe is throwing such a large wad of cash on something I may not like the feel of as i can’t try them first obviously. So my question to those that are running a set of AM carbon wheels what were the main differences both good and bad from your old alloy set.

    Cheers all

    andysredmini
    Free Member

    I have some Light Bicycle rims on Hope Hubs.
    The main reason I bought them is because I tried a 650b bike with Stans aluminium wheels and they felt heavy and really slow and lethargic to turn. My main aim was to get a set of wheels as light as my 26″ wheels. I also like the look of the matt black finish.
    They are really good but I cant say I pay much attention to any benefits of the carbon other than the weight.

    zilog6128
    Full Member

    The main reason I bought them is because I tried a 650b bike with Stans aluminium wheels and they felt heavy and really slow and lethargic to turn.

    I have a 26er and 29er both with Crests and have not experienced this… are you sure it wasn’t the tyres? Just had a quick Google and the difference between (for example) 26″ and 27.5″ Crests with Hans Dampfs is not much over 100g (for the pair).

    Obviously if you were just looking for an excuse to buy some bling then crack on 🙂

    Fresh Goods Friday 696: The Middling Edition

    Fresh Goods Friday 696: The Middlin...
    Latest Singletrack Videos
    Wookster
    Full Member

    I think you can demo Enve wheels at bike park Wales?

    Daffy
    Full Member

    zilog6128 – Member

    I have a 26er and 29er both with Crests and have not experienced this… are you sure it wasn’t the tyres? Just had a quick Google and the difference between (for example) 26″ and 27.5″ Crests with Hans Dampfs is not much over 100g (for the pair).

    You’re unlikely to with Crests – They’re silly light.

    mactheknife
    Full Member

    I’m up in deepest darkest jockland wookster so BPW is out of the question unfortunately.

    Cheers for the reply Andy, my latest Google hunt when comparing weights was that decent AM carbon wheels are not any lighter. Mainly stiffer

    Daffy
    Full Member

    I’ve got both, but TBH, and for most applciations, there’s not a lot of difference in it. I replaced Crests with Carbon as I found the Rim/Spoke combo with Crests to be too flexible and with a larger tyre, it was rubbing the frame under hard cornering. Using the same spokes and a carbon rim, there’s no rub at all.

    You can build a lighter wheel with a carbon rim, as you can use lighter spokes and the rims are often ~10% lighter, but unless you’ve got the money to replace a damaged rim when you crash/bang it…you ARE going to think about them MUCH more on a ride…i’m not a heavy rider, and do think about wheels more than I used to.

    Rubber_Buccaneer
    Full Member

    I have 650b 38mm LB rims because I wanted lower weight for a wide rim. I don’t notice any difference in them as wheels.

    I also got a ride on a 29er with Enve rims the other day. When I saw them I thought ‘oooh bling’ then didn’t give them another thought.

    It’s maybe just me being insensitive

    andysredmini
    Free Member

    I used my mavic 821 on hope hubs as the weight benchmark. The carbon wheels came out lighter but I can’t remember figures. They were also wider but it’s not something I notice when riding. I’m not a huge fan of stans wheels. I have never had or ridden a set that have impressed me. I much prefer mavic but they didn’t do a 650b 821. I will say my light bicycle rims have had a proper battering over the last year and have been perfect.

    Hob-Nob
    Free Member

    I’ve had both.

    The good: Then can be wide for their weight, so that’s important for the fashionista’s amongst us. They are stiff.

    The bad: They are fragile. I’ve been though a hilarious number of carbon rims. They are stiff – too stiff on anything other than a 29″ wheel IMO. They are expensive.

    I am back on alloy rims, and have been for a while. I haven’t broken, cracked, or dented a rim since I stopped using carbon wheels. They arnt that light in the grand scheme of things – my alloy wheels are lighter and so far have put up with more punishment than the carbon rims I’ve tried, and they feel nicer to ride, with a bit more flex.

    Ultimately, they are a bit pointless IMO. If you ride hard, or race a lot, they just don’t seem to last, and when something goes wrong, it’s terminal. I’d rather spend the money on something that had a proper performance benefit. There tends to be a lot of purchase justification from people who have them though, claiming all sorts of performance benefits, when in reality they make sod all difference.

    jacksprogis
    Free Member

    I don’t get everyone saying they can’t tell the difference.

    I switched from flows to LB 35mm DH and could tell a huge difference.
    The bike felt lighter to ride and pic up, it turned quicker and felt faster.

    However the downsides are I now get a shitload of deflection running pretty much every 2.3 tyre I’ve tried.

    I’m on DH casing 2.4 HR2 and Shorty at the moment and they feel real good finally.

    For reference, I’m 11 stone and pretty aggressive on the bike

    Sui
    Free Member

    As others have said, be prepared for when you pinch and smack the wall, or get a burp and smack the walls – they disintegrate rapidly. Other than that, they are quite nice. I’m going back to Alu though as i cannot justify spanking 300 quid to replace a rim (it was only a loamy trail FFS, grrrr).

    julians
    Free Member

    The good: Then can be wide for their weight, so that’s important for the fashionista’s amongst us. They are stiff.

    The bad: They are fragile. I’ve been though a hilarious number of carbon rims. They are stiff – too stiff on anything other than a 29″ wheel IMO. They are expensive.

    I am back on alloy rims, and have been for a while. I haven’t broken, cracked, or dented a rim since I stopped using carbon wheels. They arnt that light in the grand scheme of things – my alloy wheels are lighter and so far have put up with more punishment than the carbon rims I’ve tried, and they feel nicer to ride, with a bit more flex.

    Ultimately, they are a bit pointless IMO. If you ride hard, or race a lot, they just don’t seem to last, and when something goes wrong, it’s terminal. I’d rather spend the money on something that had a proper performance benefit. There tends to be a lot of purchase justification from people who have them though, claiming all sorts of performance benefits, when in reality they make sod all difference.

    + 1 to all that.

    Buy em because you like the look of them by all means, but the performance gains are imperceptible to me

    nikk
    Free Member

    To balance this, IMO light alu rims are fragile. I had one tear itself apart on me lenthways, and another fold like a coke can.

    My LightBike rims have done thousands of miles without a glitch. I am not a fast rider though, so I don’t bash through rock gardens etc much, more XC mile munching.

    mactheknife
    Full Member

    Cheers for all the replies. A bit to muddle over….

    matt007
    Free Member

    I tried the 35mm LB rims on my 29er, I didn’t actually like the feel of them. They were stiff to the point of making the ride feel harsh. Maybe with low spoke count and thinner spokes they’d have been better. I went back to alu rims, currently running ARC 30’s.

    corroded
    Free Member

    I’ve never really got carbon rims on a mtb. Road/gravel bike, yes, definitely, especially with disc brakes. But on a mtb I wince every time a stone hits my down tube, let alone a 300-600 rim. And the cheaper Chinese rims are no lighter than a light tubeless aluminium rim.. Wouldn’t a hand built set of wheels with a fancy hub cut the mustard?

    Northwind
    Full Member

    I’ve had a couple of sets of LB, I can’t tell any feel difference over a decent strength rim tbh. Width, I do like but it’s pretty minor. All about the weight/strength for me and I just don’t get comments about being fragile- I broke one of their early, weaker onees, and it took an absolute kicking to do it. Strengthwise it was on par with a 721 or similiar but weighed as much as an XC race rim. Not everyone’s very fussed about light wheels, I like how they ride so it’s totally worth it for me.

    corroded – Member

    And the cheaper Chinese rims are no lighter than a light tubeless aluminium rim..

    Well, yeah, but that’s apples and oranges- my 29er ones weigh the same as a Crest, if I was using Crests in this bike I’d expect to measure their life in hours tbh. Fair dos, if you’re building an XC bike that stops working out so well.

    superfli
    Free Member

    Lighter than equivalent strength/use, alloy rim. That’s about all the difference I can tell. I have lb 38mm external rims on one of my wheel sets. Use them for racing and general use. They were used in Enduro2 recently through very rocky terrain and held up fine, obviously no dents, but mate race partner was on arc 27, which suffered numerous dents following me. I’m sure if I were to hit a rock hard enough they would crack, but the alloy would suffer at least as bad

    jmatlock
    Free Member

    Fair play to guy like Hob Nob who are saying they dropped big money on Enves and the like and ended up disappointed. This place tends to suffer from wild amounts of purchase justification. Refreshing to see people being honest.

    smatkins1
    Free Member

    I’ve got a pair of LB wheels (EN728 on Pro 4s) and they’re proving to be fantastic!

    Whist they’re only a bit lighter than my old alu wheels (Hope tech Enduro), they are a bit wider, a bit stiffer and a lot stronger! I’ve smashed them into rocks in south wales, smashed them into rocks in north wales, smashed them into rocks in the alps… etc. and they just keep taking everything I throw at them and just say ‘meh’. I even dropped out of the sky front wheel first into a ditch in the alps last week and thought I was going to die. I blew a seal in my 36’s and should have taco’ed a wheel, but they’re both still perfectly true with only a few scrapes from rocks on them. I am very very very happy with these wheels (if you hadn’t guessed)!

    Bikepimp
    Free Member

    Hob hob doesn’t have a clue if he’s commenting that he didn’t notice a difference between the rims. Enve Rims are at the top of the tree and come at a price but the ride quality is second to none as know of people who ride them. Each to to their own on opinion but the true test is in the pudding.

    mactheknife
    Full Member

    Bikepimp, in what way are Enves better tan the rest. Genuine question….

    njee20
    Free Member

    Each to to their own on opinion but the true test is in the pudding.

    Good bit of mixing metaphors there. Everyone knows that when you’re talking about carbon wheels; too many cooks spoil the early bird in the hand.

    I am also intrigued about how Enve are genuinely better, because I know a lot of people with them, and that’s far from a universal perspective!

    Sui
    Free Member

    I’ve ridden enve didn’t think thatuch off them. All you do feel is deflection, which to be frank is not nice IMHO. I quite TV E miss my 721’s they were rock solid but with a bit of compliance and put up with a lot of abuse. My new Carbon AM s have suffered after 9months.. Anything Carbon for MTB is just wrong, I know a number of people who have gone back to Alu. It’s not sustainable unless you have the money..

    Rubber_Buccaneer
    Full Member

    corroded – Member
    And the cheaper Chinese rims are no lighter than a light tubeless aluminium rim..

    Bang on. No heavier than light aluminium rim and no weaker than a heavy aluminium rim. The only thing that looks like putting me off them is the £/$ exchange rate

    jmatlock
    Free Member

    Bikepimp, my understanding is Hob Nob is fairy handy on a bike. Races a bit at a decent level.

    Bikepimp
    Free Member

    Mac the knife,
    I’ve ridden Enve “road wheels” and they are a world apart on performance compared to a standard open pro alluminum rims. You’d need to try it to appriciate it. Crazy crazy money of course but hey you get what you pay for. Can’t comment on the mtb ones.

    honourablegeorge
    Full Member

    Bikepimp – Member

    Can’t comment on the mtb ones.

    And yet you did comment on them, and arrogantly accused someone who has ridden (and broken) them of not knowing what he’s talking about.

    Bikepimp
    Free Member

    Firstly WTF you talking about??? One I’m not arrogant and know what I’m talking about. The comments made by Hob Knob that he cracked Carbon rims didn’t mention that it was “Enve”. Daffy also mentioned that they are expensive to replace but as they offer you them at 50% is a good call considering the RRP. Personally I know many people who ride the mtb wheels and swear by them. Besides I’ve never heard of Danny McCaskill or Steve peat breaking them. Have you?…….

    mboy
    Free Member

    I’ve ridden Enve “road wheels” and they are a world apart on performance compared to a standard open pro alluminum rims. You’d need to try it to appriciate it. Crazy crazy money of course but hey you get what you pay for. Can’t comment on the mtb ones.

    Speaking from a fair amount of experience of carbon wheels both on and off road, including (but not limited to) Light Bikes, Reynolds, Zipp, ENVE, and I can tell you that not all carbon wheels are created equal, but comparing apples with oranges (a 32H Open Pro is as far removed from ENVE road wheels as you’re likely to get!) isn’t relevant.

    Anyway… If we’re generalising, it’s fair to say that carbon rims tend to have a higher stiffness to weight ratio than ally rims, they exhibit a harsher ride quality they’re more brittle (though often the impact required to fracture a carbon rim would be far greater than that required to significantly dent an ally rim anyway). Another sweeping generalisation would be to state that the more expensive the rim and the higher modulus carbon fibres used, the more obvious these characteristics are.

    Having spent plenty of time on decent carbon wheels on both road and MTB, I’d say the performance benefits are more obvious on a road bike, where the effects of a stiffer, lighter (and often more aero) wheel can be felt more immediately. Also on a road bike, the “harshness” experienced is generally less of an issue whilst riding around on (even broken) tarmac, especially as most pro’s and racers are running tubs anyway, and for those of us running clinchers going up to a 25 from a 23c tyre negates the downsides to the stiffer wheel.

    On MTB’s? Well continuing with the sweeping generalisations (remember I’ve got way more experience of carbon wheels than most, but I’ve not ridden them all in all wheel sizes etc. and I’m just an average rider rather than the likes of Hob Nob who is way more useful on a bike than most), the bigger the rim, the more the positive effects of a carbon rim outweigh the negative effects. I’m on some E13 TRSr carbon wheels on my Evil Wreckoning at the moment and I’ve been very impressed by them, they’re stiff enough (but not ENVE stiff), but not unduly harsh compared to some, and they’re noticably less flexy than the Stans Flows they replaced. That said, to some, a bit of flex is a good thing, it can depend on a number of things including where you ride, your riding style, the bike you ride, your tyres and tyre pressures (to name just a few), but particularly on rougher terrain a stiff carbon wheel can be a hindrance rather than a help. I’ve owned some ENVE AM 29er wheels which were ridiculously stiff, so much so that the bike (a 120mm travel Evil Following fitted with 2.3″ tyres) was stiff and uncomfortable over many surfaces on the ENVE wheels where on my Mavic Crossmax XL’s it was a lot more comfortable. That said, in the right conditions (smoother and/or softer trails) the ENVE’s felt like they were giving you a free speed boost out of corners or popping off trail features. The Light Bikes 30mm rims that the ENVE’s replaced were nowhere near as stiff/harsh, but by the same token, their lack of stifness to weight (presumably from a much lower modulus of carbon used in their construction) meant that they offered very little benefit at all over some decent ally rims other than being a tiny bit lighter.

    Back to the wheel size thing though, as I think that this is probably the most relevant thing in MTB’s when it comes to ally vs carbon rims. On a 26″ bike I see no argument to ever use carbon. A customer of mine brought his carbon Yeti SB-66 in for a brake bleed today, complete with ENVE AM rims, and knowing how harsh the ride of the 29er version is the 26″ version must be almost unbearable to ride without running enormous tyres at pressures low enough to burp them regularly! On a 29er, carbon rims make a lot more sense, and for harder riders in particular they can mitigate the traditional flexy wheel problems associated with the larger wheel size, but it’s still not cut and dry, and you’re paying a LOT of money in most cases for at best minimal real performance benefits. Remember “ride feel” is personal, and if you can’t measure something tangibly and without prejudice, it isn’t necessarily a benefit. Coming back to the mid sized wheel, well obviously the “benefits” are somewhere between those experienced by 26″ and 29er riders. Personally, I’d argue there’s still no real point to carbon rims in 27.5 size for almost all riders. But that is just my (fairly well informed) opinion, and I wouldn’t stop anyone from buying carbon wheels if they wanted to buy them in any size. Just as long as they don’t expect their signficiant investment to actually bring about much in the way of actual benefits…

    honourablegeorge
    Full Member

    Bikepimp – Member
    Firstly WTF you talking about??? One I’m not arrogant and know what I’m talking about.

    You don’t know what you’re talking about, because you’ve admitted yourself thst you can’t comment on the MTB rims. While Hob Nob, who has load of experience with carbon rims “doesn’t have a clue”.

    If you can’t see the arrogance in claiming that your self professed lack of knowlwdge is better informed than his first hand experience, then you may have other, bigger issues to worry about.

    mactheknife
    Full Member

    Guys, thanks a lot for your input, you have probably saved me from spunking a shed load of cash on something that was probably not right for me anyhoo.

    Have a good weekend y’all

    Bikepimp
    Free Member

    Mboy good reply in the pro/cons of both. Each to their own on what they like. Cycling is to be enjoyed irrespective of what they use. Anyway have a good weekend to all.

    Northwind
    Full Member

    mboy – Member

    On a 26″ bike I see no argument to ever use carbon. A customer of mine brought his carbon Yeti SB-66 in for a brake bleed today, complete with ENVE AM rims, and knowing how harsh the ride of the 29er version is the 26″ version must be almost unbearable to ride without running enormous tyres at pressures low enough to burp them regularly!

    Nope. I mean, just not at all. My 26er carbons are LB ones but I’ve ridden a few 26er Enve wheeled bikes and it was just a total non-issue.

Viewing 35 posts - 1 through 35 (of 35 total)

The topic ‘Carbon wheel users, a question…..’ is closed to new replies.