The other day I went riding with a mate. This time he drove, I gave my trusty Pug a day off. His Avensis, 1.6 sedan, was quiet, comfy, ok-ish size-wise. We got talking and he reckons Toyotas are one of very few makes that do not use a cambelt but a chain. Are there any other cars from around 2002 that don’t have a belt?
Let the fight commence!

Bmws and mercs use timing chains.

Some smaller Honda engines use chains as well.

I don’t know an engine from my arse but always have wondered about cambelts…

Given the catastrophic damage that occurs when they break, it’s always seemed and incredibly weak link to have in the system.

Why have manufacturers persisted with rubber belts for so long?

Are there any other cars from around 2002 that don’t have a belt?

Our 2001 Vectra 2.0DTi had a timing chain.

My 1980 Ausin Maxi (1750 HLS, twin carbs!) had a chain.

Most motorbikes (Ducati are the biggest exception) have timing chains

Why have manufacturers persisted with rubber belts for so long?

Cheap, efficiant, easy to change.

Even timing chains need replacing eventually you know, and that aint cheap!

Why have manufacturers persisted with rubber belts for so long?

they’re cheaper, quieter and just as reliable as chains?

My 1980 Ausin Maxi (1750 HLS, twin carbs!) had a chain.

Yey! My dad had one of those – twin 1 1/2 SUs I believe (or were they 1 1/4?)

91BHP was pretty decent back then for a family car.

My brother stole it and drove it into a lamppost. LOL

and lighter…
All OEM’s are trying to shave grams off every component.

re: the maxi, I think they were twin 1.5’s
Do you remember the Allegro? That was available with the same base engine but also a sporty version with the 1.75 SU’s. Actually a pretty quick (but thirsty) car. (My father was a manager at BL hence we had every model at some time or another).

My mates had his Almera from new (2001). Hes been told the chain needs updating (they do) and it’ll be £1,000. The cars worth 1.5k now.

M3’s ‘apperently’ had a habit of snapping timing chains over 100k (is this true?).

My old mans Mazda 6 has a timing chain, I think it’s based on a Ford Mondeo engine so don’t know if Mondeos have chains too. I think the Mazda 3 has s chain also.

and lighter…
All OEM’s are trying to shave grams off every component.

That’s why the stingy muppets at BMW (and Audi) don’t even give you a fricking spare wheel, jack or even a wheel wrench!!!

Yey! My dad had one of those – twin 1 1/2 SUs I believe (or were they 1 1/4?)

91BHP was pretty decent back then for a family car.

My brother stole it and drove it into a lamppost. LOL

Yep, twin SUs. When it flooded you could unto the dashpot on the carbs and try again. Mine was the HLS, wooden dash, velour seats, tinted windows, the lot! 😉
Very reliable car, to be fair.

My mates had his Almera from new (2001). Hes been told the chain needs updating (they do) and it’ll be £1,000. The cars worth 1.5k now.

M3’s ‘apperently’ had a habit of snapping timing chains over 100k (is this true?).

100,000 miles was the change point for the chain on the Vectra…..

The Prius has a chain. It’s nice not to have a £300 bill every few years I must say.

Chains are supposedly noisier than belts and the extra weight hinders performance slightly I think.

deadlydarcy – Member
Given the catastrophic damage that occurs when they break, it’s always seemed and incredibly weak link to have in the system.

Only where there is valve/piston interference Shirley?

‘can you advice?’ ‘sedan?’

Is English your first language or are you a recently released Chilean miner?

Mondeos are chains I believe. Some large Honda engines do have chains. My accord has one.

and don’t call me Shirley

Mine was the HLS, wooden dash, velour seats, tinted windows, the lot!

Yeah it was only the HLS with the twin SUs I believe.

My dad’s was reliable until it had that fight with the lamp post. Never mind, he got a Ford Capri 1.6GL with a vinyl roof to replace it and I loved The Professionals*… 🙂

*I know it was the 3.0S in the series but hey…

My Ford Fiesta had a camchain, it failed. Wrote off the engine.

Cam belts are fitted for good reasons, they are generally quieter than chains, require no lubrication and are lighter.
Camchains can stretch on high mileage engines leading to noise. Also the tensioners can fail leading to the same result as a failed cambelt.

Basically don’t forget scheduled maintenance.

M3’s ‘apperently’ had a habit of snapping timing chains over 100k (is this true?).

This was a bit of an urban myth dreamed up by Munich Legends (a very expensive BMW specialist) regarding the S14 engine in the E30 M3 so they could charge people circa £2000 for changing the timing chain. According to them and many people and magazines who believed it to be true your engine would self distruct at 100,001 miles if you didn’t have the work done. I’ve had 4 E30 M3’s, two of which were well over 100k and had no issues.

The chain can get noisy, but this is a result of the tensioner wearing, which is external and easy to change and you can use an uprated item from the later E36 M3 which works better. I’ve never heard of a chain failing on an M3 and neither has a friend of mine who runs a independant BMW servicing centre. The later E36 and E46 M3’s don’t seem to have any issues and I’m running one with 126k at the moment with no problems.

boblo, English isn’t my first language but such an error (advice instead of advise) is inexcusable anyway. Will you forgive? Sedan, on the other hand, is what he drives. Have a chat with Toyota Ireland that they got their terminology wrong, will you?
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Bloody pedantic STW-er, ghrrrrrr….
[off to make an espresso or two]

Yes, my son, you are forgiven. HTH 😀

However, Sadan? Is that a bastardisation of Saddam? Thought he was old news…. 😆

Espresso? Good idea, latte for me please…. And the number of people that say Expresso… Grrrrr…..

Camchains can stretch on high mileage engines

that’s why they have a tensioner

Mine has gears (’93 ‘trol 4.2 GR SGX)

Camchains can stretch on high mileage engines leading to noise.

Clearly, you didn’t hear my Pug before the belt got changed. It sounded like an old Transit van carrying half-a-tonne of bolts in metal boxes.

This was a bit of an urban myth dreamed up by Munich Legends (a very expensive BMW specialist) regarding the S14 engine in the E30 M3 so they could charge people circa £2000 for changing the timing chain. According to them and many people and magazines who believed it to be true your engine would self distruct at 100,001 miles if you didn’t have the work done. I’ve had 4 E30 M3’s, two of which were well over 100k and had no issues.

The chain can get noisy, but this is a result of the tensioner wearing, which is external and easy to change and you can use an uprated item from the later E36 M3 which works better. I’ve never heard of a chain failing on an M3 and neither has a friend of mine who runs a independant BMW servicing centre. The later E36 and E46 M3’s don’t seem to have any issues and I’m running one with 126k at the moment with no problems.

E46 or E36? Nice whichever it is!

It’s VANOS issues that can cause headaches.

Corrected, espresso my saviour!

E46 or E36? Nice whichever it is!

It’s VANOS issues that can cause headaches.

It’s an E36 Convertible but one of the earlier 3.0 versions that has a single rather than double VANOS. These tend to be more reliable, but saying that, the VANOS on mine was changed at 90k, but I think this was because the previous owner was a BMW technician and the car still had a warranty so it was done as a preventative measure. A VANOS failure isn’t as much of a disaster as it used to be as there is a guy that can fix them on an exchange basis for about £600 rather than the £1500+ it used to cost.

Gatchet – better than the 335is then – loads are going pop at rather low mileages. Mostly HPFP issues.

Our 35d unit seems reliable so far – fingers very crossed!

Older model Nissan Primera 2.0 uses chain. The 2.0L SR20 engines are strong and have been around a while quite reliable. 2002- onwards model is a different beast altogether as they became french.

My mates had his Almera from new (2001). Hes been told the chain needs updating (they do) and it’ll be £1,000. The cars worth 1.5k now.

1995 Almera, 130,000 on the clock. 3 oil changes in that time, thats all.
That’s the kiss of death applied then.

The chain itself would cost more than the car is worth I suspect. Has anyone actually done an unenforced chain change?

Some GM engines hav

e deliberately weak valve actuators (rockers), as sacrificial items in case of cambelt failure.

Rover V8’s have a timing chain … first fitted to the rover P5 in 1967 … even then it was a derivative of a buick engine so goes back before that.

Pros and cons to each I suppose. Belts are lighter and cheaper, very efficient, but more likely to wear to the point of destruction. Chains perhaps stronger, but heavier, and although they’ll stretch and so affect timing, less likely to snap completely as a result of plain wear.

Changing a chain in most cases is not necessarily a technically difficult job. the difficult comes from getting to the fekker to be able to change it. There is so much stuff tacked onto the side of an engine bloc these days, it takes hours to get it off and out of the way before you can even see the chain.

Personally, I prefer chains to belts.

All my Saabs had chains – 900, 93 and 95 petrol

Wife’s C-Max is also chain.

All my Saabs had chains – 900, 93 and 95 petrol

Yeah, my 1973 Saab 96 had a chain too.

So in summary:

You want to find a small diesel with chain driven cam(s) (chain already changed if at/beyond service limit) but without DMF, DPF, Turbo, EGR and Cat.

That should narrow it down…. 🙂

Well, I’d love to have an option of changing the belt to a chain in my Pug’s engine. Would I notice a loss of, say, 5bhp? Would I heck! How about some extra rattle? Radio can be played louder too. Besides, Avensis is so much quieter than my Pug it’s unreal.

Some Nissan cars do, my old Pulsar GTI-R did for starters. The chain rattled for a couple of seconds on startup until the pressure for the tensioners reached the required level.