Just got 7% off a year old Toyota with cash from a main dealer. I spent the afternoon with the salesman test driving etc but not really discussing money apart from me occasionally saying that it was a little over budget. Said I needed to get my wife before we agreed on anything as she would want to see it.

The trouble with haggling is that you have already shown interest in the car so they know you want it.

Fetched my wife (a non driver) and devised a strategy. She looked at the car, said it was nice but over budget, end of. As a non driver nothing the salesman said had any way of influencing her. “Drives real nice” – ‘dont care. I don’t drive and it’s over budget’. “Your existing car is coming up to a time when things will start going wrong” – ‘never mind, still cheaper than buying a new one. Don’t really know why we need a new car anyway.’. After spending the whole afternoon with me he really wanted to get a sale so was forced to come down to our budget. Moral of the story is that non drivers make excellent car buyers!

If you, or any other family member, has ever worked in the public sector you can probably join the CSMA (civil service motoring association). They have a set up with lex autolease to buy new or used cars at a discount. What’s discounted and available varies over time. You can definitely buy outright though if you want. We got almost 25% off a new Citroen this way. Big discounts tend to be on volume brands, and not German ones!
Lex Autolease are related to Lloyds, is that a problem? Otherwise this could be worth a look.

The main advantage of being a cash buyer is that you can approach private sellers. It’s very difficult to sell a two year old car for decent money privately – people wanting cheap motoring buy older used cars and pretty much everyone else either wants a brand new car or dealer facilities like finance / warranty.

Obviously you can finance (and warranty) a privately-bought used car but it’s a hassle and I reckon most people don’t bother. If you can come in with an offer that beats WBAC, then you’re into a winner. Obviously there are potential pitfalls but you’ll have saved a wad of cash. Get a private inspection if you’re worried.

TLDR: I’d be scouring autotrader/ pistonheads with the filters set to private sales only.

You’re all looking at this the wrong way.
Pay the money that the dealer wants then recoup the money by sacking the pillock that allowed you to sign such a restrictive deal without getting a company car thrown in. 💡 😕

I buy mine from the auctions. My local auction house sell almost new cars with low milage.
The place is full of dealers so why not do the same?
Pay by cash but there is a limit of 9k for money laundering rules and a cash handling fee. Pay by Debit card and there’s no fee.
Check out Aston Barclay.

Lloyds very verboten, as are almost every other bank. I can get a specific lease through work but it’s no cheaper than buying outright and factoring in depreciation. Anyway, loads of options so I will keep looking.

wobbliscott – Member
The biggest cost by far with car ownership is depreciation. Leasing a car means that for a fixed amount per month – not much more than what you’d pay on a loan, you get a brand new car, no servicing, fully warranted cars, don’t lose anything on depreciation, don’t take the risks that car ownership brings. Car ownership is a mugs game.

Depends on your circumstance. I do at least 26k miles per year.
Stick that into a lease deal on a car that I would want and it comes out to around £400/month……

My last car cost me £7500 (3yr old Ibiza 130 TDi Sport with 24k miles on the clock). Kept it for over 9 years (112 months) and sold it for £400, so cost me £63.40/month in terms of the cost of the car itself…..I have a separate account for car maintenance & in total it comes to way less than the cost of leasing something.

I’ve lifted this from a similar thread on Pistonheads, where a poster called DonkeyApple made what I think is a bravura post the context of financing cars and depreciation:

“
…Since the removal of the regulation preventing excessive consumer debt began, first under Thatcher and then massively in the late 90s all that we have seen is a steady increase in spending at the expense of a reduction in saving.

Now, most people look at the word ‘savings’ and think this means lumps of cash in the bank for emergencies but what it refers to is the money that one will need to pay to oneself as an income when you have stopped working.

The current situation of people being retired for longer than they have been working is almost certainly a luxury that cannot be afforded but while the retirement age has been raised it is a pretty irrelevant act as companies in the U.K. Don’t generally employ over 55s. Most people will not be retiring in the 70s at their own calling but actually being retired by their industry well before then. But, these same people, when you look at the vast amount of consumer data that is collected by lenders under KYC show that for the typical user of consumer debt their ability to not fall into poverty upon retirement dwindles as consumption of debt increases. And it doesn’t take much. Just a few extra monthly instalments have a huge impact.

And of course, the single purpose of finance from a vendors perspective is to increase the size of the potential client base by allowing those without the actual money to also be able to buy the product, to massively increase upselling and to also increase turnover frequency by using the finance contract to know a lot more about your client and to remain in contact with them. It’s a fascinating science/art but the impacts on a society are horrific in the long term as it steadily strips wealth from the masses and hands it to the few. As we see all too clearly in the U.K., no one below a certain level of society has increased their wealth in a very long time. Debt is used to plaster each little hole until the point of capitulation. We have rampant asset inflation caused by over consumption and excessive credit and what this means is that everyone is paying more for everything. It effects everyone. So even the fiscally prudent are being forced to use their future income today just to try and live a life commensurate with their standing.

So, the relevance over buying cars as opposed to leasing is interesting. On the one hand, we can look at the cash purchase price of cars and compare to the lease cost and see that some leases are clearly the cheapest and most sensible way to go. The lease option also gives certain flexibilities that can be very beneficial so sometimes worth paying a little more for.

However, this fails to recognise that today because almost all new purchases are made with credit and the profit structure of the industry has shifted tonne reliant on the finance element that the RRPs that we base our calculation on whether a lease looks fair value or not are rigged and artificially inflated. So we are all paying more for our cars regardless of how we finance the purchase. When we leave ok back twenty years to the market place it was clear that financing was much more expensive than buying. The market would discount to acquire real cash and the finance products were very basic so hid little. Plus, financed purchases made up a small percentage of sales so cash buyers were more important. Today it is reversed as the levels of cash that people have and their wealth has fallen and to buy goods people are having to utilise finance to access their future income as spending power. And my God has the finance industry moved on from 20 years ago. It is incredibly sophisticated. Focussed on data mining and analysis for highly accurate targeting. Designed to increase the sales value through add-ons. Each time a sales assistant fills out a credit application that data goes into the pot so that targeting can be made more specific.

For example, if a postcode is coded as a zone of prolific spending then as a retailer you know that you can charge someone from that postcode more. You know when to target certain addresses with certain offers based on the debt data associated with that property. Consumer credit data allows you to look at a property and know what they buy, when they buy it and so what to target them with. The biggest growth in this data pool has come from zero interest offers as those deals hook many more into the consumer cycle. The zero % deals are marvellous because as a lender you are burying the interest rate in the transaction price so you can actually charge more and it’s all up front and you are gaining access to new consumers. It’s a huge win/win. It’s also considered a gateway to increased spending.

So, on the surface, the superficial view from the consumer is that debt is amazing. It gets you lots of things you wouldn’t otherwise be able to have and because it’s all broken down into small monthly fees it’s all harmless and manageable. People think that because they have £300 cash left after immediate monthly costs that means they can use that money to finance debt and refer to that debt as being ‘affordable’ when it very obviously isn’t if that £300 is at the expense of procuring future income. The only people who can actually live like that are the people who are already living in the State, the ‘Great Unwashed’ as someone referred to them and highlighted their total lack of comprehension of consumer debt. Those not currently living on the State must create a future income if they are to maintain any form of lifestyle post the employment phase of their life, which as you point out is actually very short these days and almost certainly unsustainable.

The sad thing about threads like this is when you see grown men using the justification ‘I might die tomorrow’. Just getting a quote for life insurance dispels that reality. You almost certainly won’t die tomorrow. It’s incredibly unlikely.

Then people say ‘who wants to be the richest man in the graveyard’ but are ignoring the basic fact that they will have spent the majority of their life not actually earning any income but also that if you’ve been spending your retirement income on consumption today, how can that be maintained without an employer to keep the merrygoround alive?

So, in short, the downside of consumer debt is that it makes everything more expensive for all of us and strips a society of its wealth and leads us to a point that we are at today that RRPs are artificially inflated to suit the finance market and it buggers us all.

Going back to your point about retirement transporting tonne anomalous, I tend to agree but it would require either people to start firing in their 60s again or an expansion of the employment sector to employ people over 60. Both huge hurdles so we are going to be in this anomaly for a long time and massive taxation will be the bridging tool for it. The millions upon millions of white collar workers who are set to retire in poverty due to having spent their retirement income in advance will need to be financed by the very few who haven’t. Which is nice. smile

The interesting metric for PH as PH does seem obsessed with the subject (but this is probably just a reflection of wider society) is not what people are buying or what people are earning etc but rather what is the ratio of monthly pension provision to consumer debt financing. That simple ratio is what gives the true answer as to whether a particular parcel of consumer debt is affordable or not. Rather than the somewhat flawed man maths argument that if the cash can be seen it can be spent.
”

If you have cash then why not buy 2nd hand private sale instead?

I keep looking at leasing/PCP but it never makes sense to me. We pay £7-9k, cash for a 2-3 year old car (2, wife and mine). Maybe we’ve been lucky but the only costs are normal service costs and maybe a new battery. We keep them for 4-6 years, and get £1-2k part exchange.
I’ve just been doing the sums on small hybrid and that may be worth getting on PCP, but only because of the zero-ish fuel cost.

as mentioned above – drive the deal or (not mentioned) – broadspeed. The latter’s website is great as it lists all the makes, models, and discounts available in one place – eg audi a4 starting at < £22k, £10k off an e-class, etc etc. Larger discounts on older models as you’d expect

https://broadspeed.com/

If you don’t value owning a car that hasn’t been trashed previously, appreciate the reliability/warranty and fixed costs of a new car, enjoy getting new stuff and want to have the lastest tech every couple of years….you won’t understand why some people lease cars. It’s not cheap motoring, but if you like new cars, and are going to change every 2-3 years (a luxury you may or may not desire) it can make a lot of sense. It’s not for people that are scared to open their wallets or with tight budgets. Second hand motoring is much cheaper, but some people just fail to understand the appeal of a new car.

The main advantage of being a cash buyer is that you can approach private sellers. It’s very difficult to sell a two year old car for decent money privately – people wanting cheap motoring buy older used cars and pretty much everyone else either wants a brand new car or dealer facilities like finance / warranty.

Here is the answer.

Brand new car ownership is a mugs game – whether that’s buying outright for cash, on finance or leasing. Sure if you feel the need to own a brand new car then leasing isn’t a bad way to go financially, but you pay a heck of a lot for that first couple of years of owning a brand new car either way. 2-3yo cars are extremely unlikely to have anything major go wrong with them in the near future, and generally haven’t been trashed (you don’t buy the ones which have), the real cost of ownership is far lower. I do find it strange that on a MTB forum so many people can’t think of better things to do with thousands of pounds every year.

If you don’t value owning a car that hasn’t been trashed previously, appreciate the reliability/warranty and fixed costs of a new car, enjoy getting new stuff and want to have the lastest tech every couple of years….you won’t understand why some people lease cars. It’s not cheap motoring, but if you like new cars, and are going to change every 2-3 years (a luxury you may or may not desire) it can make a lot of sense. It’s not for people that are scared to open their wallets or with tight budgets. Second hand motoring is much cheaper, but some people just fail to understand the appeal of a new car.

You see, I’d counter with ‘some people fail to understand the value of a nice car’. I’ve mainly bought cars 2-3 years old. Every time I do the maths of a PCP/lease it works out that for the same overall outlay (granted one is a lump sum followed by dribs and drabs with potential black months with bigger bills and the other is a fixed monthly outlay) you can have a grey dull box on pcp or a well looked after quality bit of engineering that’s actually a nice thing for a cash purchase. It doesn’t matter where you set your benchmark for what counts as a grey dull box, the answer is always the same – the better,nicer car for the money will be the 2-3yr old car.

I guess the safe option is the new car; so I’d say the new car is for the risk averse who are prepared to pay a premium to ensure a scary bill is not ever a potential. That or the OCDs who must have new and who also lay bog roll on the toilet seat before they use a public loo.

Crikey , anyone used Broadspeed ? Brand new comes up 2.5k more than a 18mth old 20,000 miler ! If that’s the case then it’s a bit easier decision !

If you want pay for the privilege of a new car then lease is fine. Otherwise its just money being wasted imo. But then as someone who will not own a new car, I’d like to say thanks!

I own two vehicles. Both second hand but their values aren’t going down (one is appreciating) so really i’m only paying to run them.

I get a big cash lump sum for vehicles hence wanting to spend it !

I don’t quite get why you’re so bothered about a discount if you get a big cash lump sum….

Just after the last ice age, my first job was selling BMW cars. This was in the days when they were a semi niche brand and kept on a tight allocation to minimise discounting. Even the radios were optional extras. I sold a mid range model at full price to a chap who owned a string of Chinese restaurants but spoke no English. Come the day of delivery, he rolled up carrying a Tesco carrier bag full of dog eared cash, clearly not declared to HMRC. Can’t quite remember how but he managed to leave the showroom in his new car before we had finished counting the money, it was about £20k. We added it up and he had overpaid by about £500. Being honest car dealers, we rang him once he had got home to explain the discrepancy. He was very apologetic and 20 minutes later appeared with another £500 to make up the shortfall, oh how we laughed.

I don’t quite get why you’re so bothered about a discount if you get a big cash lump sum….

#Humblebrag.

As much as a complain about the rubbish mk4 golf tdi we got a few years ago it has been cheap motoring.
Paid 1500 for it I think and spent about that again over three years. Put almost 40k on it

Only once needed the rac due to rubbish vw audi clutch pedal failure. But only a few £ to fix
Has cost me a bit of time though

That’s cost does exclude tax and insurance.

Would £1000 a year get me anything new on pcp ?

Well if we’re doing that, then my current Mondeo was 4.5 years old when I bought it, and including the one big bill I’ve paid in the 4 years I’ve owned it it’s cost me £5k in total (I’m sure I’ve actually spent less on standard servicing/MOT than people spend on a lease car). Haven’t ever needed a breakdown service and apart from a couple of days on the big fix (crappy courtesy car during that) it’s only been off the road for standard servicing and MOTs. What could I get for £100 a month on a lease?

What could I get for £100 a month on a lease?

And that is assuming it has zero value now.

Sorry op we’ve not helped

I found pushing a dealer, then ringing another dealer and discussing the first dealers deal, and then discussing the 2nd dealers deal with the first dealer and so on helped.

Also keep an eye on time of month and year. BMW dealers sometimes get rid of “new” showroom cars in November / December (others may too). Local BMW dealer was also willing to do a better deal if we picked it up before the end of their financial year (they actually kept the showroom open for us a few hours longer as we were coming back from a skiing holiday and couldn’t make their closing time).

Got money off a Mini in a similar manner. Go through the whole routine with them, ask them what discount the are giving you, and look surprised / make to walk away if it isn’t enough. There’s another main dealer in the next town.

Are you allowed to get a quote even on finance? I’d try and get a deal based upon a finance agreement of some sort, let them guide you as they’ll probably give the best price on their most profitable finance package. Then just hold them short of an actual quote if possible so no checks against you or anything but try and get something in writing so you cover your work back but have a quote in writing, then offer cash for the same price.

I’m not quite sure if they’re allowed to refuse your offer or not – I know we provide finance on our products and we are not allowed to offer a different price cash or finance, but I’m not sure if it’s FCA regs or just the finance co rules. May be a way of getting a deal though.

Or just go car wow or broadspeed etc, last time I looked, anything half decent was cheaper brand new from one of those websites than the main dealer for a 6 month old example.

OP: Could you possibly cover the costs for a friend to take out finance on a car and then cancel the agreement within 14 days, and then buy the car from them in a ‘buying privately’ way?

Edit: Or a trusted friend of a friend with whom you have no discernible connection if anybody ever looked into things?

OP: Could you possibly cover the costs for a friend to take out finance on a car and then cancel the agreement within 14 days, and then buy the car from them in a ‘buying privately’ way?

Edit: Or a trusted friend of a friend with whom you have no discernible connection if anybody ever looked into things?

Another one not reading the OP’s lines …

May not work as much these days but the end of month, sales target stuff will still have some bearing. Other one was to go somewhere with 3 dealers of the same make and drive between the 3 claiming the last one was going to do x.

If not the delivery milage options sound better

OP look at carwow. Your not looking properly if dealers aren’t keen. I’ve always searched/emailed dealers within a 100mile radius. You’ll find that this approach can get you more than enough off for a couple of hours legwork.

On that subject- if you could ‘make’ £1,000 in your pocket for 2hours ‘work’- why don’t people do that? They’ll work on lowish incomes, walk into their nearest dealer and pay what’s asked. They probably see travelling abit as too much hassle.

Actually I’m beginning to think used car ownership is a mugs game. I’ve never had a brand new car, my wife has had 2. My current SMax is the newest car i’ve bought – 6 months old when I got it, £6k cheaper than a brand new one, thought I had a bargin. Bought it about a third cash, two-thirds loan. Paid the loan off over 4 years. It is now 6 years old and has cost me the initial purchase price of £18k+loan interest, £300 servicing a year, MOT’s for 3 of those years, and maybe £1k on repairs/things that have gone wrong, a couple of sets of tyres and at least a whopping £12k on depreciation (it will be more when I come to sell it). It’s now clocked up 80k miles and I was looking to change it this year but not really in a position to be able to do it just yet, so it is going to have to last another year at least.

If I had done a PCP 6 years ago, I would be on my second car just about to get my third, and it would have only cost me a fixed monthly payment not much more than what I was paying on my loan, and that’s it apart from fuel and insurance. So on a cost per mile basis significantly cheaper. I’m pretty sure I know who the mug is. And the beauty of PCP or leasing is the if your circumstances change and you decide you don’t want or can no longer afford a new car, then you just hand it back. No faffing around with selling on eBay with tyre kickers coming round wasting your time and casing your house, and eyeing up your mountain bikes out for burglary later on.

And as far as bangernomics goes – where is the sense in sinking cash into a knackered shed. Sure Bangernomics will be cheaper than a decent 2nd hand car or a new one, but you’re driving around in a shed that could go bang any time. What really matters is how much your car costs you when amortised over a cost per mile or cost per year. Cars tend to cost people in big slugs of money every now and again, but if you work it out over the period of your ownership then the cost per mile or cost per year is quite surprising.

Disagree with you there on ‘bangernomics’ both on the description and thinking. With the current climate many people wouldn’t commit to 18k+ worth of debt (that is what it is, a loan is money owed. It’s a debt to someone). Tick, credit whatever you want to call it.

I’m happy in my ‘banger’. If my work situation changes I’m not struggling with another worry.

A banger is a £300 car that breaks down alot. A 3k-7k car doesn’t. Sorry.

You see, I’d counter with ‘some people fail to understand the value of a nice car’. I’ve mainly bought cars 2-3 years old. Every time I do the maths of a PCP/lease it works out that for the same overall outlay (granted one is a lump sum followed by dribs and drabs with potential black months with bigger bills and the other is a fixed monthly outlay) you can have a grey dull box on pcp or a well looked after quality bit of engineering that’s actually a nice thing for a cash purchase. It doesn’t matter where you set your benchmark for what counts as a grey dull box, the answer is always the same – the better,nicer car for the money will be the 2-3yr old car.

Illustrates my point that some people fail to understand the value of a new car quite splendidly. Thanks :lol:.

Illustrates my point that some people are too stupid/naive to appreciate quality and are lured in by shiny splendidly, thank you 😉

On actual car buying with cash…

I bought a 2 year old ford last week from a dealership.

With most ford dealers they are all part of the same group so you can search nationwide. As we were after something fairly specific in the end, there were only a handful available and we wanted one that was a long way away.

We tried hard to get a few quid off but the salesman wouldn’t budge, why would he in that position. Assuming the sale was his, he then tried to push every possible extra on us, which obviously we don’t want if the car is already over budget!

So I phoned up the other ford dealer in Bristol and offered the sale on a plate to the first guy I spoke to if they dropped the price to X, which he did!

You are right that they are not that interested in a cash sale, its one of the first questions they ask. There’s a little bit of wiggle room on the list price, but not much, especially if you are buying from a main dealer like us.

It’s not brand new or a banger. I think 2-3 years old is pretty optimum for buying. Someone else has paid for the huge drop in value, it’s still newish and has at least 3-5 years before costs go up.

A banger is a £300 car that breaks down alot. A 3k-7k car doesn’t. Sorry.

Depends on the car, no? £3K Range Rover is likely to be a banger, and a potential money-pit to keep running. I know someone that paid a lot more than £3K on one, and it is in the garage for yet another expensive new part, more often than it is on the road.

Illustrates my point that some people are too stupid/naive to appreciate quality and are lured in by shiny splendidly, thank you

LOL You do know that it is possible to have both quality and shiny/new, right? 😀

….and if those ‘stupid people’ didn’t buy them in the first place, they would not be available for sloppy seconds.

When I bought my car last year the garage was definitely more interested in selling me finance than a car. Long after I’d explained that even if I were to borrow money I’d borrow it from my bank aty a much more favourable rate, they were still trying to push finance options.

At the time the particular car I wanted wasn’t about much second hand so I didn’t have much bargaining power – ended up with a boot liner and spare wheel (only came with gunk). This was on an 18 month old car with 3.5 years warranty remaining at a main dealer. Bought with debit card.

Head over to a Mercedes-Benz dealer, plenty of cars go here as outright sales – I’d be surprised if an MB Salesman wouldn’t help you out.

ou do know that it is possible to have both quality and shiny/new, right?

See my point about where it doesn’t matter where you set the benchmark for what constitutes a grey box.

[un pc] sloppy seconds – given a choice between the virgin with halitosis and anger management issues or the beautiful, intelligent and caring lady who just happens to have touched another man’s knob in a former life, I know which I would be going for! [/un pc]