To be honest if you want to see real communism go to hardcore capitalism country. UK suits that bill very well. And vice versa.

I don’t wish to be rude, but that does not make any sense to me 😕

+1 fuelled.

ernie – I know you revel in your “smarts not from books” pedigree, but can I recommend you read “Nothing to Envy”. Just finished it. A brilliant, personalised telling of life in North Korea. Fascinating and moving. I think you’d appreciate the quality of journalism.

Fueled – Member
Play me the worlds smallest violin…

why not just play a normal one and turn the volume down ❓

What other time in history, any where they air is not foul and toxic,

The air isn’t toxic at all, you’re just trying to be poetic.

ever heard of polution ❓ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pollution

any where the majority of people you come across are not stressed out and miserable.
you need to find a new set of mates who appreciate life.

All of my friends are fit and healthy and great to be around, it’s the people I see when I go about my day to day business, everyone rushing around, without any direction, not good.

Any, where humanity has not become to depraved that it is raping the planet it lives on and puts money, wealth and power above being human!

Humans have always depended on the resources of the planet. With the booming population, we require more of these resources. This is not the fault of capitalism.

Not the fault of capitalism no, but under capitalism it is being exploited and abused. We take as much as we can and give as little as possible back!

You argue that we should be happy with capitalism because it has provided all the technology we own and the advancement of our race, you argue that fighting amongst ourselves is the best way to get thing done, rather than working together

Bit of rivalry & competition between teams, corporations or nations is an excellent way to motivate people. It wasn’t the US and Russia working together that put man on the moon.

They could have done twice as much for half the money had they worked together.

Can you prove that we would not have gotten this far without capitalism or that had it not been for the church, then the governments and now big business’s intereference with the development and evolution of our race, that we would not already have walked amongst the stars

Of course I can’t prove it. But I can point to other countries which tried systems other than capitalism and didn’t do so well.

Perhaps but capitalism still needs to change or else the future for us all is looking very uncertain.

Your arguments assume a great deal, althought they show intellect they also show that you have a limited capacity for logic and reason.

Ok, give me a good example of your superior capacity for logic and reason…

Very well, optimum efficiency is required in all things, if we are to recognize our full potential 😀

If capitalism worked we would be in a better possition as a species.

That’s neither logical nor reasonable

I disagree, we can judge the value of a system or form of management by it’s ability to benefit those individuals involved with it. Under capitalism we are seeing a rise in crime, a rise in mental ill health, and a complete disregard for quality of life.

If we do not judge the system on the effect it has on the lives of those involved, how will we judge it ❓

You are arguing that our current circumstances as a race is some how a good thing?

Yes. I for one cant think of a better time to be alive than the 21st century. As I said before, we have problems looming, like overpopulation and terrorists trying to get hold of nuclear weapons, but capitalism is not to blame.

Those terrorists are the back lash of global war mongering and arms dealing ❓

We work longer and longer hours for less and less money. This is only good compared to how crap it was in the past or how horrendous the condition else where, what about how good life could be, will it get better under capitalism ❓

Anyone that believes that technology is more important than humanity is a screen brain!

I agree. So what?

hallelujah!

I’m still waiting to hear your suggestion of what you think would be a better alternative. In the video you linked to, even renowned academic David Harvey rightly pointed out some huge flaws, but still said he didn’t know what system could be better.

We need a whole new form of capitalism, that isn’t short sighted or controlled by fools.

Capitalism: flawed, deeply flawed.

However no one has yet come up with a better, workable, model.

(Fueled +1)

popstar I love stories! tell us what it was like, what happend when the economists / democracy arrived, looked like a complete cluster ****

What was it like?

Bit of rivalry & competition cooperation between teams, corporations or nations is an excellent way to motivate people.

Equally true.

1) The people who are involved in it should share in the profits and benefits, for example the money that a company earns, each individual should be paid based on how much they earn the company. That way you have a motivated work force.

Erm… I’m fairly sure that even the most capitalistically evil corporations in the world pay their staff. They even pay more to those staff doing more difficult and demanding jobs.

If an employee comes up with an idea to make the company more efficient and profitable without detrimentally effecting the service, they should be paid a percentage of the profits gained from the procedures, practices or idea’s.

Congratulations, you have invented the concept of giving an employee a bonus for good work.

2) Those of us that buy products or services should be looking to only deal with companies that show us where the money is going, if companies invest the money they make in the lives of the people involved we should support them, if not we should simply deny them our custom.

A very reasonable thing to say. I actually agree completely. That’s still capitalism though.

3) We need to invest a percentage of our races resources into effective management of all of our races resources. We need to ensure that everything is done as efficiently as possible and that we get the most out of every endevour.

This cannot happen under normal capitalism,Slag off capitalism all you like, but please don’t deny that it provides enormous incentive to do things efficiently and maximise return from endeavour.

however something must be done, as our situation is growing more dire by the day. The climate is changing, we have no idea why

We are seeing more and more unsettled weather conditions, even here in the UK, what will it take for all of us to wake up Sorry, you’ve lost me.

Not much of an argument to say there isn’t any workable model, the US and the UK have just spent 50 years making sure that no other economy could compete with them.

That’s the beauty of capitalism and the danger, starve off other countries of resources and then sell them stuff from your economy that is stronger and has more money for research and development.

The only problem is china, the wild card that has been introduced to the game, see how far capitalism gets you, when you can’t compete and the system you’ve spent 50 years manipulating and incorporating into ever part of our way of life, is no longer under your control.

No other system has been allowed to work, the capitalist have made sure of it, let’s see how they deal with china or more accurately, let’s see how china deals with the capitalists.

Capitalism my ass!

Fueled – Member

1) The people who are involved in it should share in the profits and benefits, for example the money that a company earns, each individual should be paid based on how much they earn the company. That way you have a motivated work force.
Erm… I’m fairly sure that even the most capitalistically evil corporations in the world pay their staff. They even pay more to those staff doing more difficult and demanding jobs.

Erm, let me clarify that for you, the amount that they earn the company should determine thier wages 😯 is that clear enough ❓

Erm, let me clarify that for you, the amount that they earn the company should determine thier wages is that clear enough

Its clear, but completely unworkable. How much does the lady who cleans my office toilets earn the company? How much should she be paid?

She should be paid as much as she can be, as long as she agrees to do as much work and the best work she can do.

however something must be done, as our situation is growing more dire by the day. The climate is changing, we have no idea why

We are seeing more and more unsettled weather conditions, even here in the UK, what will it take for all of us to wake up

Sorry, you’ve lost me.

Under capitalism we concentrate on the aquisition of wealth to the exclusion of everything else including the environment and quality of life. How can that be logical?

Under capitalism we concentrate on the aquisition of wealth to the exclusion of everything else including the environment and quality of life

Not entirely true. Its not a deliberate act, its a failure of markets when externalities are not taken into account in the market. All it takes is a method applying a market to, say, air quality or water quality and capitalism could be used to enhance the environment. The failure to do so is not capitalism, but political will.

She should be paid as much as she can be, as long as she agrees to do as much work and the best work she can do. = “I don’t know, stop asking these difficult questions.”

Capitalism under effective management has great potential, but it would no longer be what we know as capitalism, it would be a new system.

Capitalism cannot work, either the system must be reformed or completely replaced. As it stands it is fundamentally flawed and is simply a force for oppression and tyranny.

Capitalism cannot work, either the system must be reformed or completely replaced. As it stands it is fundamentally flawed and is simply a force for oppression and tyranny

you’re quite boring with your Cod economics.

druidh – Member
She should be paid as much as she can be, as long as she agrees to do as much work and the best work she can do. = “I don’t know, stop asking these difficult questions.”

Comes down to motivation sunshine, it doesn’t have to be overly complicated to be effective. If you motivate people you will get more out put from them. If you pay them as little as possible you get as little work as possible.

ernie – I know you revel in your “smarts not from books” pedigree

😀 LOL ! ………. I don’t at all, ie, think that I’m particularly smart (reasonably well informed on some matters maybe) nor do I have a problem with book readers – it just doesn’t interest me personally.

But thanks for the tip on “Nothing to Envy” anyway. Unfortunately (apart from not enjoying reading books cover to cover) I have no interest at all in North Korea – I am as anti-Maoist as I am anti-Trot. I’m sure the quality of journalism is excellent, however that is unlikely to impress me – any interest in reading is purely for the purpose of gathering facts and information. But thanks again 8)

BTW you might be interested to know that I was talking to a mate of mine recently (another lefty Leninist like me) about the Ragged Trousered Philanthropists, and I confessed that I had never read it (particularly surprising considering my trade) and I told him that I thought it was about time that I did. I then mentioned that I had been recommended the Road to Wigan Pier (by you remember) he tutted, looked disapproving, and said “it’s by George Orwell”, my mate, unlike me, is pretty intellectual – he went to uni. “Bourgeois bollox ?” I asked, the answer was affirmative. Still, I kinda think that maybe one day I’ll read it, along with the Ragged Trousered Philanthropists – I feel I ought to. But I guess I probably never will 🙂

Oh which reminds me, a year ago I spent some time with my sister in Madrid, I got a bit bored and she suggested that I read one of her books, I chose “As I walked out one midsummer morning” and I really enjoyed it !…..maybe this book reading lark isn’t that bad after all ! Mind you, I was bored, the book is very short, and I had the added interest that my father went to fight in Spain 1936-39.

Monetarism isn’t working and the left can’t provide a working alternative.
Saw that someplace.

“Cod economics”

Stoner and DruidH took the words out of my mouth.

I think what you are trying to suggest is that the entire profits of a company should be shared between employees. But if this were to happen, there would be no incentive for people to invest in capital, and to take the risks that setting up a business requires. Development would totally stagnate.

Not much of an argument to say there isn’t any workable model,

Surely the fact that there is no better model is an excellent argument for the continuation of capitalism.

the US and the UK have just spent 50 years making sure that no other economy could compete with them.

…as is the fact that nobody has been able to compete with the capitalistic countries over the last 50 years.

That’s the beauty of capitalism and the danger, starve off other countries of resources buy resources from countries where they are less in demand and then sell them stuff from your economy that is stronger and has more money for research and development.

So spending money on research and development to create a better product is a bad thing? or is it the fact that we are giving developing countries to opportunity to buy technologically advanced products that you object to?

So kaesae, given reports that you own your own business, and that charity begins at home and all that, can I presume that you’re paying yourself minimum wage and donating the rest to more worthy causes? Money where your mouth is.

“Bourgeois bollox ?”

I think that must be why I liked it then 🙂 And “Down and Out in Paris and London”. Another great read.

maybe this book reading lark isn’t that bad after all ! Mind you, I was bored, the book is very short, and I had the added interest that my father went to fight in Spain 1936-39.

You should read some Hemmingway…

EDIT> BTW I was forced to read Cider with Rosie at school and hated it. Put me off Laurie Lee for life.

The Nothing to Envy book I recommend as a source of information and facts. I learnt a good deal of the North Korean life from it that Ive never seen reports on before.

I read pretty much everything Orwell wrote in my mid-teens.

This thread reminds me I really should re-read it. I wonder how well it’s (or I’ve !)aged.

Comrade – that’s not a capitalist cod, but a common pikey 🙂

It’s probably completely futile to suggest it but this stuff is well worth reading. Start with the Manifesto, go on to Das Kapital, dip into Grundrisse and Theories of Surplus Value and don’t overlook Engels on the family, evolution and Anti Duhring. This stuff is unparalleled in modern writing and anyone who dismisses it really doesn’t know their arse from their elbow. It’s not easy reading but it’s incredibly rewarding.

and Id add in von Mises and Adam Smith.

I think that capitalism fits in quite well wth the natural order of things. Survival of the fittest, natural selection, predator/prey cycles. Thing is, there are downsides to this in that we get boom and bust, feast and famine, strongest and weakest (in terms of financial stength). I like the idea of being able to better your standard of living through hard work and creativity. But also as most people do, I don’t like the downsides. Like politics in general I don’t think the answer lies in choosing one extreme or the othere but blending the positives from all viewpoints.

I am far from any kind of economist, but I believe in a free market economy as being the best (so far) model we have, with a couple of noteable exceptions: education, health, utilities (maybe, not made my mind up on that one).

I am a stong believer in the (principle of) the NHS, and that a good, free, education should be available for all.

Continual economic growth (surely the lifeblood of capitalism) based upon the use of fossil fuels is totally unsustainable from an environmental point of view. So ultimately it’s doomed.

Like politics in general I don’t think the answer lies in choosing one extreme or the othere but blending the positives from all viewpoints.

Amen to that.

I think that capitalism fits in quite well wth the natural order of things. Survival of the fittest, natural selection, predator/prey cycles. Thing is, there are downsides to this in that we get boom and bust, feast and famine, strongest and weakest (in terms of financial stength). I like the idea of being able to better your standard of living through hard work and creativity. But also as most people do, I don’t like the downsides. Like politics in general I don’t think the answer lies in choosing one extreme or the othere but blending the positives from all viewpoints.

Amen. I’ll go to sleep on that.

You should read some Hemmingway…

Serious suggestion? 😯 OK I get the Spain bit, but IIRC I found him very dull (and didn’t get very far through the book I had), and I’m into reading!

Continual economic growth (surely the lifeblood of capitalism) based upon the use of fossil fuels is totally unsustainable from an environmental point of view. So ultimately it’s doomed.

Alternative power sources can and will be found.

Where do you think the majority of the car makers’ R&D budget goes these days?

economic growth

is never based on a single energy source. It is based on the most cost effective one for the time being. The best bit about economics is that if something is not the most cost effective/efficient then necessaity being the mother of invention will lead to the use of or development of alternatives. The fact that the true costs of elevated carbon consumption is not priced into the energy use is a problem with the market structure not the way it works.

The sweaty palms that peak oil causes is just whats needed to induce economically driven development in non-carbon fuels. That’s market economics at work. It may not be as timely as people would like but if national trade agreements had managed to tether an environmental charge to carbon dioxide production it would have happened sooner.

You should read some Hemmingway…

I tried, many years ago – For whom the bell tolls. Again, because of the Spanish Civil War connection. I gave up about a quarter of the way through, despite initially being very determined…..why all the “old english” bollox ffs ? The truth is Stoner, I’m not an academic/intellectual……after all I’m a manual building worker. Which I wouldn’t be if I could immerse myself in academia and reading.

The Nothing to Envy book I recommend as a source of information and facts. I learnt a good deal of the North Korean life from it that Ive never seen reports on before.

I wish I was interested in North Korea 😀

Continual economic growth (surely the lifeblood of capitalism) based upon the use of fossil fuels is totally unsustainable from an environmental point of view. So ultimately it’s doomed.

It’s always seemed to me that continual economic growth based on anything is ultimately doomed to fail – it appears a company is seen as a failure if it’s simply maintaining it’s earnings/profit. Strangely the anti-caps never seem to have that as one of their arguments.

I liked A Farewell to Arms.

Comes down to motivation sunshine, it doesn’t have to be overly complicated to be effective. If you motivate people you will get more out put from them.

Oh yeah? You can give me all the motivation in the world, but if I get paid regardless of my output, I go smoke a giant blunt and watch Time Bandits instead. And I’m not the only one. Nothing would get done and no one would produce anything. The money you pay me would be worthless as there would be nothing to buy. Social responsibility? Come on, how naive can you be.

I lived in that kind of place, where having toilet paper to wipe your ass with was a luxury. I’m sure ‘the workers’ did the best they could. Socialism was really great. Sound like you need a dose to cure your disease.

If you pay them as little as possible you get as little work as possible.

Huh? Is that supposed to be an example of what happens in capitalism?! In a capitalist system, you get paid what you’re worth. If your boss underpays you given the work that you do, someone else will pay you more.

It’s weird that you think of it in terms of a wage, which then translates into a certain amount of work. As if you look at your pay packet and then decide how much work you’re going to do. It’s the wrong way around, and if you think like that you will never succeed. I do a certain amount of work, which then translates into a wage. If I work like a dog, my wage at the next pay rise will catch up to the work I do. And if my current company doesn’t value my work properly, there are hundreds of others that will.