Should it be made?

Very interesting interview this.

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iE1dAXb4P8Y[/video]

Sort of seems like a ridiculous concept to be honest. Too diametrically opposed; like the Palestinian/Israel opposing positions, writ large and international.

Can peace be made with ISIS?

Highly, highly unlikely. ISIS’ are committed religious fundamentalists. As more of them die they get closer to the caliphate and the prophecies they are trying to bring to fruition. They believe that only a handful of fighters will be left when the end of days comes so the losses they suffer only bring them closer to realising their goals.

This is compounded the fact that committed jihadis seek/celebrate death.

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKqho3FsjpU&t=586s[/video]

An excellent podcast with Sam Harris and Graham Wood : The end of the world according to ISIS – which goes into some detail about ISIS’ end of days prophecies.

Yeah, definitely – I’m still running one on my bike and it’s totally silent.

When they hang from a gibbet for the sport of their own crows…

As they are an ‘organisation’ with a goal that can ideologically never include peace with their perceived enemies, I’m going for ‘no’…

More practically, not sure who you would negotiate with? Daesh aren’t really a terrorist organisation in the way the IRA or even Al Qaeda were.

To paraphrase Alan Moore – ‘ideas are negotiation-proof’

Insofar as there is anything resembling a coherent theology behind their existence, then the answer is an absolute ‘no’. They simply MUST be eliminated.

But in fact, many of the individuals who have signed up are just pathetic morons who don’t have a religious clue. In this respect, there may well be people within Daesh who can be drawn from its clutches. Which is, of course, quite a different thing to ‘making peace’.

Ultimately, someone called them a ‘death cult’, they were absolutely right: its rank and file members have been brainwashed into believing that people should be destroyed. And to that there really is only one answer.

colournoise – Member
As they are an ‘organisation’ with a goal that can ideologically never include peace with their perceived enemies, I’m going for ‘no’…

More practically, not sure who you would negotiate with? Daesh aren’t really a terrorist organisation in the way the IRA or even Al Qaeda were.

To paraphrase Alan Moore – ‘ideas are negotiation-proof’

They do have leaders. Think al bagdadi is the main dude in isis is he not?

I don’t really have an opinion either btw, i don’t know enough about the inner workings of isis, and just really know what i see through the western medias lens, i’m just intrigued by yer mans interview and opinions after being in such close contact..

whilst you can always negotiate this group is the hardest to see how you do this given their MO, their “organisation” and their objectives

SaxonRider – Member
They simply MUST be eliminated.

Call me mental but I have a certain reluctance to get behind an extermination programme.

They simply MUST be eliminated.

Wow , I’m truly speechless .

Call me mental but I have a certain reluctance to get behind an extermination programme.

I am talking about a serious, sustained combination of appropriate military intervention and de-radicalisation of individuals.

If you can think of a more effective approach, it would genuinely interesting to hear about. Otherwise, your reluctance could be construed as Chamberlain-like naïveté.

EDIT: Maybe you’d like to be the one sit down and have a chat with them over coffee, Ramsey Neil?

Effect of UK Air Ops

And that’s just us! Grim times even by the standards of the Middle East.

A lot of Iraqis would agree with the idea that they must be eliminated by force, the stories coming out of Iraq (there was a really good one recently which painted a story of young Isis fighters from captured photos – the story highlighted how one group of Iraqis were overjoyed to see Isis fighters missing legs crawling out of a bunker hit by a coalition airstrike – thry hate them that much) indicate that the only thing they understand is hard power and violence. They bully, murder and keep the local population in a state of fear – and recruit by giving kids guns and giving them a sense of power.

The idea that you can negotiate with them, legitimises the idea that they actually have support and a mandate from the majority of Iraqis – which they really do not.

SaxonRider – Member
Call me mental but I have a certain reluctance to get behind an extermination programme.
I am talking about a serious, sustained combination of appropriate military intervention and de-radicalisation of individuals.

If you can think of a more effective approach, it would genuinely interesting to hear about it. Otherwise, your reluctance could be construed as Chamberlain-like naïveté.

EDIT: Maybe you’d like to be the one sit down and have a chat with them over coffee, Ramsey Neil?

I don’t claim to have the answers. tbh i’ve only got questions.

One of which, since you bring it up, is can they be eliminated? Seems to me like the last 20 years has been a game of cutting the heads of dragons.

Hence why I said above that ‘I am talking about a serious, sustained combination of appropriate military intervention and de-radicalisation of individuals.’

EDIT: Maybe you’d like to be the one sit down and have a chat with them over coffee, Ramsey Neil?

To be honest it’s way too complicated for me to fully understand but generally if you want a negotiation of any type to be successful then you have to be prepared to give up or exchange something that the other side wants . Sitting down and telling people they will agree with your position or you are going to wipe them out is never going to work .( Massive over simplification there ) .

SaxonRider – Member
Hence why I said above that ‘I am talking about a serious, sustained combination of appropriate military intervention and de-radicalisation of individuals.’

sounds a nice headline, but what does that mean in practice? What if de-radicalisation is impossible?

something that the other side wants

They want anyone who isn’t them to be dead. That’s about it. So, what about a nice quiche?

The other thing is that they are already encouraging would be fighters to travel to Africa or East Asia. So it’s entirely plausible, nay inevitable that even when they are killed off in Iraq/Syria they’ll resurface elsewhere.

Whether it’s the same name or Al-Shabaab or Boko Haram, or ISIS in the Philipines they won’t be eradicated, and they never will be so long as trillionainre bathists and wahabists continue to bank roll them and Islam continues to struggle with the concepts of jihadism and martyrdom.

seosamh77 – Member
They do have leaders. Think al bagdadi is the main dude in isis is he not?

The way I read it (and admittedly I’m no expert) is that he’s head of one of the bodies that seem to operate under the Daesh/ISIS/ISIL umbrella.

I think a few years ago it might have been possible to negotiate with a group who ‘were’ Daesh. Now, it seems the ideology covers a range of groups and individuals who may or may not have direct allegiance to the actual caliphate?

I’m no expert but I don’t see why not, they are people after all.

Also, Al Bagdadi is considered a symbolic figurehead/religious leader, not a tactical military leader. He may also have been killed in a Russian air strike last week.

howsyourdad1 – Member

I’m no expert but I don’t see why not, they are people after all.

Are you trolling?

no

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/resources/idt-sh/is_fighters

I’m not even sure this will go on indefinately, it doesnt always seem to be a religious thing for the fighters – a lot of them – like those in these pics seem like goat **** losers who are looking to gain respect by joining ISIS. I mean – the kid who touched up his eyes to make them whiter and put lipstick on seems pretty **** gay to me – I didnt know Islam allowed bum sex. It’s almost like kids going through a “Goth” phase with guns – someday it won’t be cool to them.

and they never will be so long as trillionainre bathists and wahabists continue to bank roll them

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jun/24/saudi-security-foils-terror-plot-targeting-mecca-grand-mosque

Maybe the snake starts to eat the tail

the kid who touched up his eyes to make them whiter and put lipstick on seems pretty **** gay to me – I didnt know Islam allowed bum sex.

On my last trip to Afghanistan, there were a couple of these lads around the base. And I thought my job was shit! IIRC it’s a cultural thing rather than an Islamic thing per se; see “dancing boys”. Grim. There’s a curious doublethink going on with some where they think being gay is a sin, harsh punishment etc, but just don’t count fooling round with other boys as gay!

Can peace be made with ISIS?

Can they be allowed to eat bacon? 😮

Yes its easy, let them out of prison, few dozen royal pardons, couple of hundred letters of comfort (essentially shield them from any prosecution), big payoffs, ‘peace funding’ for communities, then insist on them being part of the government and all will be well. That’s what we do with terrorists in the UK isn’t it?

You’d be surprised at how common it is in certain regions to have a “boy” for activities

only when they’ve run out of luxury yachts

You’d be surprised at how common it is in certain regions to have a “boy” for activities

House of Lords? Catholic Churches? It’s not just the Middle East…

This was from airtragic’s link https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/

The United Kingdom is also responsible for almost half of all coalition surveillance flights over Iraq and Syria, with the Tornado jets RAPTOR reconnaissance pod accounting for 60% of the coalition’s entire tactical reconnaissance in Iraq alone.

Just a quick question to TRUMP “So whose not pulling their weight?”

Peace can’t be made with them, no. See here for why.

PDF download link. It’s ISIS magazine Dabiq, via the Clarion Project.

I haven’t clicked on that, TFO, because before I do, I want to be sure it’s legal. Do you know?

As a member of my region’s Prevent Committee, I am aware that just downloading certain material produced by Daesh is an offence.

SaxonRider – Member

I haven’t clicked on that, TFO, because before I do, I want to be sure it’s legal.

I am guessing this is the relevant part of the PDF…

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMKOV2zA9Wc

.. although it does lose something being removed from the context of a magazine who’s entire purpose is to glorify religious murder and the destruction of free, secular democratic life.

Not as far as I’m aware. I’ll copy & paste the main points so you don’t have to click if you don’t want. It’s hosted by the Clarion Project.

1. We hate you, first and foremost, because you are disbelievers; you reject the oneness of Allah – whether you realize it or not – by making partners for Him in worship, you blaspheme against Him, claiming that He has a son, you fabricate lies against His prophets and messengers, and you indulge in all manner of devilish practices.

2. We hate you because your secular, liberal societies permit the very things that Allah has prohibited while banning many of the things He has permitted.

3. In the case of the atheist fringe, we hate you and wage war against you because you disbelieve in the existence of your Lord and Creator.

4. We hate you for your crimes against Islam and wage war against you to punish you for your transgressions against our religion.

5. We hate you for your crimes against the Muslims; your drones and fighter jets bomb, kill, and maim our people around the world, and your puppets in the usurped lands of the Muslims oppress, torture, and wage war against anyone who calls to the truth.

6. We hate you for invading our lands and fight you to repel you and drive you out. As long as there is an inch of territory left for us to reclaim, jihad will continue to be a personal obligation on every single Muslim.

Delightful footnote:
The fact is, even if you were to stop bombing us, imprisoning us, torturing us, vilifying us, and usurping our lands, we would continue to hate you because our primary reason for hating you will not cease to exist until you embrace Islam. Even if you were to pay jizyah and live under the authority of Islam in humiliation, we would continue to hate you. No doubt, we would stop fighting you then as we would stop fighting any disbelievers who enter into a covenant with us, but we would not stop hating you.

There is a lot more waffle under each of the points, but I’m sure you get the jist.

interesting enough view from a guy that’s sat and read loads of editions of daqib.

http://www.cracked.com/blog/isis-wants-us-to-invade-7-facts-revealed-by-their-magazine/

SaxonRider – Member
I haven’t clicked on that, TFO, because before I do, I want to be sure it’s legal. Do you know?

As a member of my region’s Prevent Committee, I am aware that just downloading certain material produced by Daesh is an offence.

D’oh! I just clicked on the link to have a quick look at some of their photos … arrghhh … I just hope no anti-terror squad will kick in my main door in coz that will be rather expensive to repair. If they do I shall offer them bacon butty as peace offering … Bacon and pork chops are for those that repeat … 😛

I blame my quick clicking fingers not The Flying Ox … 😆

My summary … eat pork and bacon … 😛

seosamh77 – Member
interesting enough view from a guy that’s sat and read loads of editions of daqib.

FFS does everyone on this planet has to quote “Sun Tze” art of war?

Let me summarise the insignificant of “Sun Tze” in modern warfare. Very simple … just incinerate the entire region. What’s with this pussy footing about “art of this or that”? 🙄

I mean they keep talking about Sun Tze (those bacon haters) but they don’t even understand the very basic of Sun Tze.

Sun Tze ate pork and I bet he also loved bacon … 😆