I would very much doubt taking your bike and putting it in a van is reasonable – I’d be making a complaint to the police.

Why not? They didn’t damage his property or his person in anyway, so doesn’t sound that unreasonable to me, OK may be a little humiliating, but I don’t think the police take ‘mental anguish’ into account with assault.

Lets not forget that he was in the wrong here as he was trespassing; OK its just a bit of cheeky trail stealing, however it is still trespass.

If you were trespassing in my garden I would certainly forceably remove you..

But I imagine Lord Bath would be much more likely to try to score some weed off you or invite you to a sexy party or wander off to talk to a tree..

Jobsworth estate managers to blame..?

hmmm – a lot of this going on at the moment, seems Longlete are set on upsetting as many locals as possible (much more than cyclists effected). I’ve heard of some heavy handedness – and rumblings coming from Sustrans…

nothing good will come from this

Why not? They didn’t damage his property or his person in anyway, so doesn’t sound that unreasonable to me, OK may be a little humiliating, but I don’t think the police take ‘mental anguish’ into account with assault.

Depends, if you’re holding onto the bike and he ‘takes’ it from your grasp then I think that the threat of violence is there. Maybe not strong but there (invading personal space, using force to remove from your grasp, etc).

If he had dropped the bike and it was lying at the side of the road then probably not.

If you were trespassing in my garden I would certainly forceably remove you

Hmmm if it was lord bath doing the removing then you may of had a point showing us your manliness, however it was one of his underlings taking his job to seriously and without due diligence. They have right to ask you to leave the property but not man handle you. Same thing with tree hugger tying themselves to trees, they need a court order to physically remove them.

I think you misunderstood my post flippinheckler.. ho hum

has the Longleat estate recently changed it’s policy..? If so why..? what is the reason behind it..? there’s a lot of talk about the issue if you google Lord Bath..

If you were trespassing in my garden I would certainly forceably remove you..

You are so hot, yunki!

Would you be rougher in the back garden?

Would you be rougher in the back garden?

It’s a bit wiffy around my compost bin..

A Country Ranger once threatened to confiscate my bike near Edale.

When I pointed out if he laid a finger on it he would be wearing it wrapped around his head for the rest of the day he backed down, but he insisted he had the ‘right’.

Mind you, I had to show him that the track I was on was a Bridleway on the OS map; he maintained I was ‘going to ride on a footpath’

You got caught riding cheeky, then let someone dispossess you of your bike !! take your licks and get on with it

I would very much doubt taking your bike and putting it in a van is reasonable – I’d be making a complaint to the police.

Its fairly clear what the landowner can do

1) ask yo uto leave by the shortest route – if you agree and do so that is the end of it
2) if yo refuse to leave they can use minimum and reasonable force to remove you.

To me it sounds like they went further than this. they are clearly being very heavy handed – so a report to the police to at a minimum have the incident recorded is appropriate IMO

There are no rights of way across the Longleat Estate, but there are 2 Sustrans routes that exist permissive access. It has generally been taken by locals for years that walking/riding along the estate roads is allowed, so the recent issues are causing quite a stir locally.

Ziggy, out of interest, where were you when you were stopped and what time of day was it? From speaking with others we have yet to work out any pattern or obvious method to Longleat’s “madness”. Indeed there are no new signs up at the entrances (other than two new pop up barriers) so how folk are supposed to know they are now not allowed on the estate I know not.

Out of interest, how did they get your bike off you? Did they drag you off it? I assume you were riding rather than pushing or climbing in through a window to ride the Great Hall or such like…?

i’d write directly to the owner of the property asking if the employees were acting with his authority and if it would be possible to review position on sccess

not withstanding all the good advice above – in the pre CROW days used to find that a warden with dogs could persuade me to leave rather easily – one run i still do that is now legal i always stop and moon at the wardens cottage – maybe a mass moon in!

Reasonable force allows the “laying on of hands” if so required to remove a trespasser from your property.
The owner or his agent can “remove” you at any point under “tort of trespass”.
If that is a “guiding hand” or being physically picked up and carried off it matters not.

It depends if you were removed as a trespasser on private land or removed as a biker on a public footpath. Al makes a very good point that you’d assume the estate has public access rights, certainly on foot, so poor signage is to blame here IMO. However al also points out that as there are no PRoWs on the estate, were you on private land or the permissive sustrans route?

If the former its, as mentioned lots above, its up to the landowner to remove you with reasonable force, and what reasonable force would be would be up to the police then ultimately a magistrate to decide if you were to make a complaint and it went that far. If its the latter, get in touch with your PRoW department ASAP.

Thinking out loud I’d say his taking of your bike is taking property with the intent to deprive, but not AFAIK if the ‘agent’ has been authorised by his employers to take bikes off trespassers to return them after being escorted off the property.

Interesting and tough to decide, but on the face of it, it doesn’t sound unreasonable to me and I’d chalk it up to experience I’m afraid.

hinking out loud I’d say his taking of your bike is taking property with the intent to deprive,

No intent to deprive

I would make a police complaint tho assuming you were prepared to leave when requested ‘cos if you were no level of force is reasonable

I would make a police complaint tho assuming you were prepared to leave when requested ‘cos if you were no level of force is reasonable

And then you are in the world of their word against yours, in which case you lose (UK law, not TJ’s law obviously). Because your idea of shortest route possible might not be there’s and in the end its there **** land!

Presumably you’re allowed to use “reasonable force” to counter their “reasonable force”. 🙂

For anyone that is interested about access issues on the Longleat Estate, there is a piece here which mostly helps. http://www.whitehorsenews.co.uk/blog/?p=1645 Looks like Cycle routes 24 and 25, plus teh Wiltshire cycleway are unaffected (if you read the Longleat statement and ignore the scare mongering “journalism” is the reporter.

Reasonable force allows the “laying on of hands” if so required to remove a trespasser from your property.
The owner or his agent can “remove” you at any point under “tort of trespass”.
If that is a “guiding hand” or being physically picked up and carried off it matters not.

I hope you’re not a lawyer dishing out advice.

“Reasonable” means just that. And all circumstances and behaviour would be taken into account. Otherwise, it isn’t reasonable….

UPDATE

I emailed Longleat with no response so far.

However, this weekend Longleat have removed all of the route 24/25 Sustrans signs from the estate.

was thinking about this the other day as we were down at the Stourhead estate meeting a man about a dog (to mate with ours this spring 🙂 )

Is Stourhead any good for riding? Spotted some tracks and saw something about a permit online when I checked when we got back. Lovely area, I normally pass through early in the morning or late at night as I go to the Isle of Wight a lot for work.

ziggy – you say all, have they removed signs from the rest of the estate, like near Bradley Road?

“Due to some recent serious security and health and safety issues including robbery, as well as other abuse and damage to the estate, we have reviewed the access policy at Longleat.”

“The House and associated courtyards, formal grounds, landscaped gardens, Pleasure Walk and the Longleat Safari and Adventure Park are closed to the general public.”

“Unlimited access is permitted for … cyclists in other areas of the wider estate (over 8,000 acres), excluding the above-mentioned areas.”

Unfortunate but you can see their point. As for your trespass: I don’t think they should have taken your bike. If you resisted eviction, they could man-handle you off the premises. IMO

Mass tresspass time

This has made the BBC news website now.
It does seam to have been very badly managed if the estate didn’t even tell Sustrans that the cycle route was being closed.

very badly managed – the change in management has introduced some changes over the past 12-18 months, and knowing people who have dealt with them, all driven by the dollar signs

my bet – the decision was taken very short sightedly (ie: why are we letting people onto the estate without charging), hence the change was brought in so hap-hazzardly. The reasoning given re: robbery etc, smacks of some retro PR resoning

couple of things to think about, these routes have been in regular use for a long (long) time, so what’s the chances of getting them upgraded to public rights of way?

and Longlete will never get another penny of my cash (used to buy a passport ticket every year), not just for this – but the shocking treatment dealt out to staff when the new management took over

I presume that a lot of the changes are due to the change in management (the bloke who used to manage legoland iirc) recently appointed by (presumably) Lord Bath

And to answer the question about Stourhead, it’s about as good as what’s around, but dissapointing overall. Not worth a trip, but would ride if on the doorstep.