Wrote a more eloquent version of this but seems it didn’t post properly so I’ll paraphrase rather than writing all again.

Some sports don’t pay enough prize money for pros to make a living. Should they be paid a salary by governing body to keep them in the sport or is it okay that people can’t make a living from what is essentially a hobby?

Can a sport survive without a pro series driving sales, marketing, role-models to attract to people to sport etc etc or will it just wither and die a slow painful death? Regardless of whether individually we care if there are pro cyclists, would manufacturers continue to support the sport?

In the basest terms, it’s a business, a competitor makes money if them competing makes money. A good footballer might not seem to be worth 100k a week (and the rest!) but if they bring 120k a week into the club then it makes good business sense.

For the less popular/profitable sports would paying a professional salary bring more money into the business? Who would fund it?

Sport does not have to be about money and careers. Look at GAA in Ireland, players are all unpaid, put in big training hours and often work other jobs during the day. Every town has a team/pitch or stadium (often a bit of a community focal point) the sport is huge among both men and women with croke park being the biggest stadium in Ireland that sells out no bother.
That sport in its best form, no over paid egos playing just for the money.

Its ok that people cant make a living from their hobby.

Can a sport survive without a pro series driving sales, marketing, role-models to attract to people to sport etc etc or will it just wither and die a slow painful death? Regardless of whether individually we care if there are pro cyclists, would manufacturers continue to support the sport?

Archery, shooting, croquet, real tennis, fives, cycle speedway, the list goes on.

There are many sports that exist pretty much solely as a hobby. Yes, there are some who compete at a high level, with some even being Olympic sports, but they’re hardly top end pros.

Climbing barely supports any professionals, and I’m sure would survive quite happily without them. Ditto running really – such a strong grassroots scene. Mo and Bolt don’t matter a jot.

I guess most/all sports developed without any of that; whether they’d be sustainable still, who knows.

Using the cycling example, I think maybe it’s big enough now that it could be sustained (certainly I’d not stop riding if all pro cycling stopped). Course, it’s also hugely likely that people would still ride bikes as they’re useful transportation even if nothing else but I guess we’d never see that 18-speed 10-92 cassette / cv gearbox if there wasn’t such big sales volume to be had amongst tubby middle-aged plodders with disposable income

It exists in a very small country but GAA sports in Ireland. Hurling and Gaelic Football are both coming to their crescendos with All Iteland Finals happening on the first and last Sundays in September respectively.

Each sport’s championship which started in early May, will have been watched by paying crowds of hundreds of thousands by the time each finishes. Many of you will have seen Croke Park when Ireland played there in the 6N while Landsdown Road was being redeveloped. That will have been filled half a dozen times in a few weeks of semi-finals and finals. The level of athleticism in each sport is very high. County shirts sell in their tens of thousands – with all shirts being made by the same manufacturer.

Many would find it hard to believe that the players are all amateurs and (pretty much) all hail from the county for which they play.

A sport doesn’t need money, it needs enthusiasts with passion. Real sport is a group of people killing themselves to compete as best as they can because they love it.

I used to race sprint and marathon kayaks, until the lottery funding there were no proffessionals, now I think there are a couple of men and women in the U.K. That will be funded enough to just do that for a couple of Olympic cycles but that’s it.

Pretty healthy at the moment I think, not MTB level obviously, but my old club is doing well. Wish I had time to go back to it.

Hill running (what you English call fell running) is doing pretty well without high profile pros. Numbers at most races are very healthy and seem to be growing. The low profile of the sport in this regard is something I love. Yes, there are such people in related activities but mostly on the continent and you don’t tend to see them much at the long standing UK events. For those not familiar with the sport, the current dominant runner in Scotland is a GP.

As glasgowdan suggests pros aren’t a necessity, they are just the tip of the iceberg. It’s the grassroots that feed a sport.

Also, don’t confuse a sport with the commercial machine surrounding the sport.

My friend is world champion in bikejor. Heard of it? Nope, thought not. She’s the world champ and works in sodding IT.

Governing bodies should be trying to grow their sport, they shouldn’t be taking cash from ordinary members to fund elite athletes. That’s what they should be getting sponsorship/funding for

Adventure racing is what I used to do at an elite level. I think there may be a handful of people who are effectively professionals, but the majority of the top 10 teams at the world championships aren’t (a British team won the World Champs a few years ago, none of them have ever been professionals). It’s doing just fine as a sport, even if most people haven’t heard of it (well enough to get TV coverage and attract sponsors, not quite well enough for people to make a living from it).

I was about to mention shinty, but you’ve pretty much covered it above.

Never been really stuck with me, but aye the GAA is a perfect example, took a game in at croke park one time, really good day out, think it was a quarter final for the all ireland, ticket done 2 games, canny mind the teams. But I’m too biased to fitba though for it to keep my interest regularly.

The GAA does have a big leg up though in that it’s essentially a big part of the cultural soul of a nation mind.

I guess most/all sports developed without any of that; whether they’d be sustainable still, who knows.

Using the cycling example, I think maybe it’s big enough now that it could be sustained (certainly I’d not stop riding if all pro cycling stopped). Course, it’s also hugely likely that people would still ride bikes as they’re useful transportation even if nothing else but I guess we’d never see that 18-speed 10-92 cassette / cv gearbox if there wasn’t such big sales volume to be had amongst tubby middle-aged plodders with disposable income
All sports were amateur, professional sports are a relatively recent phenomenon.
There are still a great many that are pretty much all amateur, archery, fencing; cycling of course would be sustained, the number of professional riders in all disciplines is pretty small, really; development of new tech might slow, but there’s still the market for bigger, better, shiney!

Just some idle thoughts over the mornibg coffee:
I might go a bit further and propose that professional players are actually quite bad for the everyman experience of sports such as mountain biking. If it hadn’t been for the lightweight “drillium” phase, driven by racing and marketing, we would have been riding full sus, larger tyred bikes long ago.
Likewise the plethora of big bikes that were produced in the josh bender phase.

As fas as i can see, for the majority of people (those without a fleet of bikes);
Pro riding breeds highly specalised machines to do best in the niche that contains money. Marketing and advertising then drives sales and the sport lurches toward that niche. Jo public sees ultra light racer or 40lbs sled and buys a cheap version. Cheap version is even more heavy/skittish/uncomfortable. Jo public gives up.

Currently we seem to be back to all-round bikes capable of long days pedaling toward the horizon. The proliferation of comfy, very forgiving bikes appears to correlate with a boom in MTB numbers.

My friend is world champion in bikejor. Heard of it? Nope, thought not.

Isn’t this like a cheap arse version of an eBike! 😀

ontor – Member

Just some idle thoughts over the mornibg coffee:
I might go a bit further and propose that professional players are actually quite bad for the everyman experience of sports such as mountain biking. If it hadn’t been for the lightweight “drillium” phase, driven by racing and marketing, we would have been riding full sus, larger tyred bikes long ago.
Likewise the plethora of big bikes that were produced in the josh bender phase.

I see your point but I’m not sure I agree 100%. First off the technology and the progression of technology is a big thing. Mountain biking/cycling in general attracts a lot of people who like gadgets and engineering. Professional or high level competition pushes these things along and it’s a compelling part of the hobby for a lot of people. Also, there’s not a direct link between pro rider and advanced tech. The sport develops from a level that’s not necessarily driven by pros. The explosion of freeriders and huckers was harnessed by bike companies and marketing but you can bet your ass it didn’t just appear overnight from a marketing department.

As fas as i can see, for the majority of people (those without a fleet of bikes);
Pro riding breeds highly specalised machines to do best in the niche that contains money. Marketing and advertising then drives sales and the sport lurches toward that niche. Jo public sees ultra light racer or 40lbs sled and buys a cheap version. Cheap version is even more heavy/skittish/uncomfortable. Jo public gives up.

The skittish race bike example is more apt for road cycling imo. But with mtb who’s to say an amateur sport would ever have arrived at the tech we have today?

Most cycle racing in the UK is completely volunteer run and involves non-professional participants.

At international level you need professional support to compete in cycling. Where this is not available through commercial team sponsorship, we support professional cyclists through lottery funding.

Commercial sponsors don’t support cycling because pros exist. They created the pros because they want to promote their products.

deadlydarcy – Member
It exists in a very small country but GAA sports in Ireland. Hurling and Gaelic Football are both coming to their crescendos with All Iteland Finals happening on the first and last Sundays in September respectively.

Each sport’s championship which started in early May, will have been watched by paying crowds of hundreds of thousands by the time each finishes. Many of you will have seen Croke Park when Ireland played there in the 6N while Landsdown Road was being redeveloped. That will have been filled half a dozen times in a few weeks of semi-finals and finals. The level of athleticism in each sport is very high. County shirts sell in their tens of thousands – with all shirts being made by the same manufacturer.

Many would find it hard to believe that the players are all amateurs and (pretty much) all hail from the county for which they play.

Ciarraí Abú !

Very interesting question for this time in the morning!
To be honest, I think now most sports would survive fine if professionalism went away, but would the numbers of spectators (TV and game/race day crowds) still be the same size? Unsure.

Climbing barely supports any professionals

Actually I think there has been a rise recently in the number of ‘Brand Ambassadors’ in Climbing recently – particularly from Sugary Drinks Companies/Marketing Brands:

I note that Coca-Cola now have their first Brand Ambassadors in the Climbing world …

So in conclusion, pretty much the only sport that wouldn’t survive without professionals is F1.

Actually I think there has been a rise recently in the number of ‘Brand Ambassadors’ in Climbing recently – particularly from Sugary Drinks Companies/Marketing Brands:

I note that Coca-Cola now have their first Brand Ambassadors in the Climbing world …

Ashima Shiraishi. And opinions from the climbing community are (putting it politely) ‘mixed’. Big article in the most recent BMC magazine.

finbar – Member

So in conclusion, pretty much the only sport that wouldn’t survive without professionals is F1.

You still get millionaire playboys buying their seats in F1 teams so perhaps that might be the model they’d adopt.

Ha – good point jimjam.

Deadly darcy, where does all that money go that is generated by gaa?
Is it back into the ‘grass roots’ ?

You still get millionaire playboys buying their seats in F1 teams so perhaps that might be the model they’d adopt.

They still have to be good enough to get the f1 super license though, plus do few years in the lower formula, not like the days of old where literally anyone with enough brass could build a car and race it…

I’ve been following Ironman/long distance tri over the past few years, a lot of the pro’s are complaining about the prize money etc. A few of the races have sacked off the pro field altogether. The numbers of amateurs entering them is in the thousands who bring in the money. I can see most races not having a pro field in the next few years.

GAA accounts

* Increase of €4m in revenues to €60m

* Gate receipts up by €3m

* Central Council championship attendances drop by forty thousand

* Commercial revenues stable at €19m

* Direct cost of matches up to €12m

* Distributions to units up to €13m

* Games development up to €11m

* Player welfare down slightly at €4m

* Operating costs increased to €10m

* Capital expenditure and grants of €10m

* Net result is break-even

“With a marked increase in attendances and the need to market the games more fervently, the GAA invested heavily in the development of its grounds. Indeed it has been estimated that the GAA has invested (in current purchasing power) the equivalent of €2.6 billion in its nationwide infrastructure at national and local level in the past 50 years. The result is that the vast majority of GAA clubs, even in the most rural areas of Ireland, have developed and enjoy ownership of their own grounds and associated facilities.”

I’ve only ever been to matches at club level (Dromid Pearses) admission was free there so at grass roots level there’s no cash! Gaelic sports, as has been mentioned don’t have an equivalent in GB in terms of their intertwining with the community. THe GAA supports cultural activities such as song, music and dance to promote and preserve Gaelic culture as part of its constitution so goes beyond the prominent sports of football, hurling and camogie

Deadly darcy, where does all that money go that is generated by gaa?
Is it back into the ‘grass roots’ ?

Now there’s a question! You only have to see Twitter whenever there’s a draw meaning another full stadium a week later. 😀 The GAA would say that, yes, it goes back to grass roots, and to be fair, a lot of it does – they have no choice other than to get kids playing from an early age and supporting clubs (each county will have a bunch of senior clubs from which the county team is selected) at as there are no imports from abroad.

EDIT: kilo’s post above is a better answer than mine.

kilo

“With a marked increase in attendances and the need to market the games more fervently, the GAA invested heavily in the development of its grounds. Indeed it has been estimated that the GAA has invested (in current purchasing power) the equivalent of €2.6 billion in its nationwide infrastructure at national and local level in the past 50 years. The result is that the vast majority of GAA clubs, even in the most rural areas of Ireland, have developed and enjoy ownership of their own grounds and associated facilities.”

I’ve only ever been to matches at club level (Dromid Pearses) admission was free there so at grass roots level there’s no cash! Gaelic sports, as has been mentioned don’t have an equivalent in GB in terms of their intertwining with the community. THe GAA supports cultural activities such as song, music and dance to promote and preserve Gaelic culture as part of its constitution so goes beyond the prominent sports of football, hurling and camogie

And yet local clubs are constantly holding lotteries and prize draws and sponsored walks, sportivs(sp?) music nights, fundraisers etc to raise cash for repairs or equipment. I’m regularly getting guilt tripped (well they try) to creat flyers or posters or be a photographer for such enterprises.

My friend is world champion in bikejor. Heard of it? Nope, thought not.
Isn’t this like a cheap arse version of an eBike!

Derestricted… and controlled by shouting.

Apologies for butting in DD, sitting around the house bored a fair bit atm

No probs dude. 🙂

@jimjam, there are few grass roots clubs that aren’t trying to raise money over and above that which they get from their umbrella organisation.

Some sports didn’t become professional from amateur roots, continental road racing being a prime example, which partially explains its equivocal relationship with performance enhancement.

given that “lifestyle” athletes are a thing now (Hannah Barns, Josh Bryceland etc) , it seems that the Pros can survive more than happily without sport.

I’d argue that a lot of people who like sport, don’t give a poop about the pro side of it anyway.

I like cycling (obviously), I get fanatical over equipment, but I could probably name less than 10 current professional cyclists. My OH on the other hand has not ridden a bike in years, yet has a crush on Geraint Thomas and knows most of the transfer gossip!